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ISO the perfect pizza crust at home


doctortim
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Unfortunately, where I live the best pizza you can buy within reason is Pizza Hut, Dominos, and the other pizza chain offerings. If you're prepared to spend big money there's one place that makes a great traditional pizza, but one should -- with a little experience -- be able to make a decent pizza at home, right? Right?

Alas, I can't. I've tried and tried but to no avail. One time I got close, but still no cigar. The problem I have is that the crust and in general the outside become overcooked and burnt before the insides have cooked properly. As a result the pizza ends up with an overcooked crust and a doughy centre with a horrible yeasty smell and taste. It's not quite the end of the world -- I can properly cook 90% of the pizza, but getting the crust and the centre perfect seems beyond my grasp.

I use a homemade dough like the recipe in Bittman's How to Cook Everything, cook the pizza on a stone, and crank my oven as high as it will go (500F). I preheat for about 30-60 mins, and let the dough rise while I'm preheating. I cook for about 10-15 minutes, or as long as the crusts can bear before becoming inedible.

What might I be doing wrong?

Dr. Zoidberg: Goose liver? Fish eggs? Where's the goose? Where's the fish?

Elzar: Hey, that's what rich people eat. The garbage parts of the food.

My blog: The second pancake

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Too much stuff on top? Too thick of crust + a lot of stuff on top?

Try the same recipe and such, make a thinnish crust and dress it very lightly. What happens?

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I've actually found that 500° is too high for my pizzas... I bake them at just a hair under 450° and get much better results. My family generally prefers a thin crust, so I wasn't having trouble with the middle being doughy, but the crust edges would often get over-brown before the cheese (of which I use an awful lot, of course!) melted enough to suit me. (For the record, my thin crust dough recipe doesn't rise; I just let it rest for about 15 minutes before rolling it out.)

When I make the thicker crust, we like chewy over cakey, but I still bake at 450°. I think kitchenmage is right, too... a thickish crust overloaded with sauce & toppings is in danger of not cooking evenly. I'd try her suggestion and cut back on those, to see if the problem is just with your dough recipe.

Do you heat your stone prior to baking, too? Or just the oven? I usually don't heat for the first one, but subsequent pizzas usually come out a little better, since the stone is already hot from baking the first. Might try that, as well.

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Do you heat your stone prior to baking, too?  Or just the oven?  I usually don't heat for the first one, but subsequent pizzas usually come out a little better, since the stone is already hot from baking the first.  Might try that, as well.

You absolutely have to heat the stone! If you don't, the inside will be undercooked and mushy, just as described here. Try preheating the stone at least 30 min at 500-500 and then bake the pizza at 450+.

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My go-to topping is a thin spreading of pureed tomatoes, some anchovies, mozzarella, and then basil when it comes out. Also I preheat the stone. I'm thinking perhaps I'm not rolling it out thin enough. I've got some more dough left from tonight's failure, I'll try a thinner base and experimenting with the temperature.

Dr. Zoidberg: Goose liver? Fish eggs? Where's the goose? Where's the fish?

Elzar: Hey, that's what rich people eat. The garbage parts of the food.

My blog: The second pancake

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A very good resource for home pizza making are the forums at www.pizzamaking.com. There are recipes for all types of pizzas and a lot of discussion on technique as well.

I do not know the particular recipe that you are using, but it sounds like you are not letting the dough rise long enough. The quickest I have used is about a 2 hour rise, and most are much longer. Also, I've had better luck stretching and pulling pizza by hand as I think it usually provides a better result than rolling (although some pizzas, such as thin cracker crust and Chicago deep dish, usually have to be rolled).

If you use a stone you really need to let it preheat, probably for at least an hour.

-Eric

My go-to topping is a thin spreading of pureed tomatoes, some anchovies, mozzarella, and then basil when it comes out. Also I preheat the stone. I'm thinking perhaps I'm not rolling it out thin enough. I've got some more dough left from tonight's failure, I'll try a thinner base and experimenting with the temperature.

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My go-to topping is a thin spreading of pureed tomatoes, some anchovies, mozzarella, and then basil when it comes out. Also I preheat the stone. I'm thinking perhaps I'm not rolling it out thin enough. I've got some more dough left from tonight's failure, I'll try a thinner base and experimenting with the temperature.

Mybe this will help.

I made pizza last night, I always cook the pizza round untopped first, until it is just very barely starting to turn golden about 4 minutes on each side. I am trying to compensate for the all around well heated ovens in the pizza shop by doing it this way. I used to help a friend in his pizza restaurant and they started the ovens at 6am but never started baking pizza until 11am. They did bake bread and rolls for sandwiches from about 9-11. Your crust may get a few brown spots but not really browned and the crust will have become slightly crisp. I cook it on a stone with parchment under it, to help get it in and out of the oven.

I mixed up the dough in the FP and left it for about an hour in a 65 degree kitchen. I just leave the dough in there with the lid on, I don't oil the dough or anything.

I used a modified philly style dough, 1 1/4 cup of water, 1-2 tbsp olive oil, 3/1/4 cup flour, 1 tsp salt and 1 pkg dry active yeast.

I preheat the stone at 450 for a minimum of 1 hour.

Removed it from the FP, put it on a floured board and gently kneaded it and let it rest.

Rolled it out and tossed it a few times to spin the disk larger.

Baked the crust nekkid as above and removed it from the oven and then brushed it lightly with olive oil all over and slightly heavier on the edge.

Then I put the toppings on, light sauce, provolone, mozzarella, parmesan and cheddar and mushrooms, artichokes, jalapenos. I baked it for about 25 minutes to get the cheese really melted and bubbling. This was spur of the moment, so all the toppings were canned goods from the pantry, that were well drained. The bottom and crust were crunchy but not tough. Under the topping was not gooey or mushy.

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I made a fairly thin crust put the sauce and other toppings on bake it ..and then right before it is done I add the cheese that way the crust is crispy ...the sauce and the toppings can release the steam, dry out a bit, cook into the crust... and not be stuck under the cheese ....does not leave for a wet center ... then the cheese has all its fresh pull when you eat it!

since I do not have stones (yet I will this week!) I use olive oil and corn meal on the pan and just before I add the cheese to the top I slip the crust on to the oven rack to crisp up...while the cheese is melting

I bake mine at 475F

Edited by hummingbirdkiss (log)
why am I always at the bottom and why is everything so high? 

why must there be so little me and so much sky?

Piglet 

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I make pizza a lot, using a 1/2" rectangular pizza stone, preheated for at least 30 minutes in a 550F oven, middle rack.

The dough is made thusly and split into thirds using an electronic balance:

12 oz water

1lb 4 oz bread flour

2 TBSP EVOO

2 tsp Sea Salt

1 TBSP Honey

1 capful of yeast from the little brown yeast bottle ~ 2 TBSP

I use a bread machine to make the dough, and it preheats the water before it starts to mix and knead. When it starts up, I check the dough and add more water or more flour to get what, from experience, I see is needed to get the right consistency of dough that will rise nicely in the machine.

When the machine is done, I flour my Corian countertop, and after dividing the dough into three equal ~ 12 oz balls, I roll them out with a rolling pin to just about the same size as the pizza stone. I usually add light sprinklings of more flour to make sure the dough doesn't stick to the rolling pin or my hands or the countertop.

At that point, I sprinkle corn meal on my wooden pizza peel and put the dough on.

I then use a boar bristle paint brush to brush on EVOO the dough. I continually pick up the peel and make sure the dough easily moves without sticking. The brushing of EVOO makes the dough water proof from the sauce that goes on next.

Then my meat and veggies, basil leaves, some fennel seed and/or anise seed, parmesan and then food processor processed chunk of mozzarella. Each time I add something I make sure it still moves freely on the peel.

Stick it onto the stone, wait about 9 minutes and the pizza is perfect. Cooked all the way through, nice browned bottom, no doughy spots in the middle of the crust, cheese just starting to get carmelized a bit.

The other two dough balls get the same treatment, only I put them on round metal pizza pans, and stick them in the freezer with all the same ingredients as the one I am baking.

Some time later, I take one of them out of the freezer and easily extract the frozen pizza from off the pan, let it sit on a corn meal dusted peel while the oven is preheating the stone and itself, and by the time the oven is ready the pizza has thawed, and moves freely on the peel, and I repeat the baking process.

doc

Edited by deltadoc (log)
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I once had similar problems as well as having a crust texture that wasn't what I sought.

Based on input I received from previous threads in this forum I did the following:

- Reduced the amount of yeast in my dough mixture to about 1/3 of what I had been using.

- Made my dough mixture on the wet side.

- Did minimal kneading of only five minutes or so and then used the long cold rise method of leaving the dough in a greased covered bowl in the fridge overnight; punctuated by occasionally removing it to punch down and fold back on itself.

- Stretched my dough instead of rolling it.

- Put my pizza stone on the bottom of the (gas) oven below the bottom shelf.

I too have found that the oven can be turned down a few degrees but at 475 F my thin crust pies cook in six minutes. And they cook quite evenly including the center and the edges of the crust.

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I'll also 2nd the notion that you have too much toppings, or too thick a crust.

I do my pizza @ 550+ degrees, but I like 'em quite thin. when stretched out, my dough is probably 2-3 mm in thickness.

I've never really measured the sauce, but I'm going to make a wild guess that I use about 4 oz per 14" pizza. Just enough to smear around, but you still want to be able to see the dough through the sauce. Cheese always spreads when it melts, so this is another place where you need to fight the urge to put on too much. Start out very light on your toppings until you get the hang of it.

Mine usually takes about 4-5 minutes and it's done.

Oh, and for anyone else that's thinking of trying their hand at pizza (I'm relatively new at it myself!), but don't have a stone, I *highly* recommend picking up some UNGLAZED quarry tile from your local home improvement store. Cost me about $5 to line the entire bottom rack of my oven, and it works wonderfully!

gallery_18540_4077_6770.jpg

__Jason

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I make pizza a lot, using a 1/2" rectangular pizza stone, preheated for at least 30 minutes in a 550F oven, middle rack.

The dough is made thusly and split into thirds using an electronic balance:

12 oz water

1lb 4 oz bread flour

2 TBSP EVOO

2 tsp Sea Salt

1 TBSP Honey

1 capful of yeast from the little brown yeast bottle ~ 2 TBSP

I use a bread machine to make the dough, and it preheats the water before it starts to mix and knead.  When it starts up, I check the dough and add more water or more flour to get what, from experience, I see is needed to get the right consistency of dough that will rise nicely in the machine.

When the machine is done, I flour my Corian countertop, and after dividing the dough into three equal ~ 12 oz balls, I roll them out with a rolling pin to just about the same size as the pizza stone.  I usually add light sprinklings of more flour to make sure the dough doesn't stick to the rolling pin or my hands or the countertop.

At that point, I sprinkle corn meal on my wooden pizza peel and put the dough on.

I then use a boar bristle paint brush to brush on EVOO the dough.  I continually pick up the peel and make sure the dough easily moves without sticking.  The brushing of EVOO makes the dough water proof from the sauce that goes on next.

Then my meat and veggies, basil leaves, some fennel seed and/or anise seed, parmesan and then food processor processed chunk of mozzarella.  Each time I add something I make sure it still moves freely on the peel.

Stick it onto the stone, wait about 9 minutes and the pizza is perfect.  Cooked all the way through, nice browned bottom, no doughy spots in the middle of the crust, cheese just starting to get carmelized a bit.

The other two dough balls get the same treatment, only I put them on round metal pizza pans, and stick them in the freezer with all the same ingredients as the one I am baking.

Some time later, I take one of them out of the freezer and easily extract the frozen pizza from off the pan, let it sit on a corn meal dusted peel while the oven is preheating the stone and itself, and by the time the oven is ready the pizza has thawed, and moves freely on the peel, and I repeat the baking process.

doc

Doctortim,

Chicago style deep dish (the only pizza worth gracing your palate :wink: ) is prepared thusly.

Hand form you dough in a deep-dish pan.

Brush with olive oil.

Layer the mozzarella cheese on the dough, then add other fillings in layers.

Sausage, mushrooms, etc.

Next, smooth the sauce on top and bake.

You do not need a 500 deg. oven. 350-375 will do.

You are baking too hot.

Its a no-no to put the sauce on the bottom as everything else will slide on it and the sauce will not cook evenly, which seems to be the problem you are having.

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You do not need a 500 deg. oven. 350-375 will do.

You are baking too hot.

Only if he's trying to make deep-dish, which he apparently wasn't.

I make both deep dish, and thin crust... and they're both real good, but two completely different animals. Can't apply methods of one to the other... just won't work.

BTW... I think I'm going to lobby for changing the name of "Chicago deep-dish pizza" to something a bit less confusing... like "Chicago casserole", as that seems like a more appropriate name!

Just kidding! :raz:

__Jason

Edited by guzzirider (log)
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You do not need a 500 deg. oven. 350-375 will do.

You are baking too hot.

Only if he's trying to make deep-dish, which he apparently wasn't.

I make both deep dish, and thin crust... and they're both real good, but two completely different animals. Can't apply methods of one to the other... just won't work.

BTW... I think I'm going to lobby for changing the name of "Chicago deep-dish pizza" to something a bit less confusing... like "Chicago casserole", as that seems like a more appropriate name!

Just kidding! :raz:

__Jason

Thin crust?

Oh that's easy!

Simply spread canned tomato sauce on top of cardboard,

sprinkle with imitation mozzarella

Add TVP sausage and pop it into the microwave.

There you have it.

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yikes! old timer. You've definitly never had a truely good Neapolitan (aka thin) pizza. IMHO they are what a pizza aspires to be. I love Chicago style as well and I'm looking forward to binging on some next month when we visit. They are just not....pizza :smile:

To the subject at hand,

I agree with most everyone here. You need a dough that is loose, hand formed, allowed to rise overnight in the fridge and formed pretty thin. The recipe I settled on and love is from Jeffrey Steingarten’s second book, “It must’ve been something I ate”. The dough is so loose it cannot be rolled or flipped or handled too much. It is also allowed to ferment very very slowly in the fridge and then topped minimally. Now, this is one of the best pizza I’ve ever had and I can make it at home. The crust alone brushed with olive oil is marvelous and so flavorful. I bake on regular unglazed bricks placed on the floor of my oven where they stay all the time and the oven is at full blast (about 550F). if you want the recipe for the dough I can adapt it and PM it to you.

That's a margarita I made recently

gallery_5404_94_240485.jpg

E. Nassar
Houston, TX

My Blog
contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com

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yikes! old timer. You've definitly never had a truely good Neapolitan (aka thin) pizza. IMHO they are what a pizza aspires to be. I love Chicago style as well and I'm looking forward to binging on some next month when we visit. They are just not....pizza :smile:

To the subject at hand,

I agree with most everyone here. You need a dough that is loose, hand formed, allowed to rise overnight in the fridge and formed pretty thin. The recipe I settled on and love is from Jeffrey Steingarten’s second book, “It must’ve been something I ate”. The dough is so loose it cannot be rolled or flipped or handled too much. It is also allowed to ferment very very slowly in the fridge and then topped minimally. Now, this is one of the best pizza I’ve ever had and I can make it at home. The crust alone brushed with olive oil is marvelous and so flavorful. I bake on regular unglazed bricks placed on the floor of my oven where they stay all the time and the oven is at full blast (about 550F). if you want the recipe for the dough I can adapt it and PM it to you.

That's a margarita I made recently

gallery_5404_94_240485.jpg

That is a very nice looking pie.

When you hit Chicago, by all means seek out a Giordano's Pizza.

Voted "Best Pizza in America" by the Today Show.

Here is a link to their site, but be forwarned, once you experience their pizza you may never go back!

www.giordanos.com

For alternatives try Pizzario Uno or Gino's East.

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Coupla details to consider trying on the road to making magic pizza. In random order.

1. Skin fresh tomatoes by blanching them in boiling water for a minute or two then immersing them in ice water. Peel, slice, discard the juice & seeds. Use this in place of sauce. Slices are maybe 3/16's to 1/4 of an inch thick or so. This makes a perfect, unusual, easy to eat 'sauce'.

2. Grate some fresh onion into the water for the dough. This would be after the yeast is activated. Or if you are into simple, add some onion or garlic powder.

3. Brush the exposed crust with olive oil and sprinkle with a little random cheese, paprika, or seasoning.

4.. Cut a piece of garlic and rub it over the crust before putting on the toppings.

5. Bake the crust a bit before applying the toppings.

6. Use scamorze cheese with the mozzarella.

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I make pizza a lot, using a 1/2" rectangular pizza stone, preheated for at least 30 minutes in a 550F oven, middle rack.

The dough is made thusly and split into thirds using an electronic balance:

12 oz water

1lb 4 oz bread flour

2 TBSP EVOO

2 tsp Sea Salt

1 TBSP Honey

1 capful of yeast from the little brown yeast bottle ~ 2 TBSP

I use a bread machine to make the dough, and it preheats the water before it starts to mix and knead.  When it starts up, I check the dough and add more water or more flour to get what, from experience, I see is needed to get the right consistency of dough that will rise nicely in the machine.

When the machine is done, I flour my Corian countertop, and after dividing the dough into three equal ~ 12 oz balls, I roll them out with a rolling pin to just about the same size as the pizza stone.  I usually add light sprinklings of more flour to make sure the dough doesn't stick to the rolling pin or my hands or the countertop.

At that point, I sprinkle corn meal on my wooden pizza peel and put the dough on.

I then use a boar bristle paint brush to brush on EVOO the dough.  I continually pick up the peel and make sure the dough easily moves without sticking.  The brushing of EVOO makes the dough water proof from the sauce that goes on next.

Then my meat and veggies, basil leaves, some fennel seed and/or anise seed, parmesan and then food processor processed chunk of mozzarella.  Each time I add something I make sure it still moves freely on the peel.

Stick it onto the stone, wait about 9 minutes and the pizza is perfect.  Cooked all the way through, nice browned bottom, no doughy spots in the middle of the crust, cheese just starting to get carmelized a bit.

The other two dough balls get the same treatment, only I put them on round metal pizza pans, and stick them in the freezer with all the same ingredients as the one I am baking.

Some time later, I take one of them out of the freezer and easily extract the frozen pizza from off the pan, let it sit on a corn meal dusted peel while the oven is preheating the stone and itself, and by the time the oven is ready the pizza has thawed, and moves freely on the peel, and I repeat the baking process.

doc

Doctortim,

Chicago style deep dish (the only pizza worth gracing your palate :wink: ) is prepared thusly.

Hand form you dough in a deep-dish pan.

Brush with olive oil.

Layer the mozzarella cheese on the dough, then add other fillings in layers.

Sausage, mushrooms, etc.

Next, smooth the sauce on top and bake.

You do not need a 500 deg. oven. 350-375 will do.

You are baking too hot.

Its a no-no to put the sauce on the bottom as everything else will slide on it and the sauce will not cook evenly, which seems to be the problem you are having.

Oldtimer, lest there is confusion here, doctortim and doc (aka deltadoc) are not one and the same.

With that said, I would never ever cook a pizza at 350-375. Jean-Claude Tindillier, arguably one of the greatest living French chefs in the world, told me once 20+ years ago, that pizza can only be done right in an oven at least 550F.

What he told me and what my taste buds confirm is that he was right. I am limited only by my oven or I'd experiment with the temp ranges that professional pizzarias have available.

Oh, to have a wood fired stone brick oven to work with!

:)

deltadoc

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And the French would know what about pizza?!?!?! :biggrin:

It's an Italian thing! Well Italian first, Italian-American second...

But I agree with the advice though - to cook an authentic Neapolitan style pizza you need the oven as hot as possible. I seem to recall that commercial ovens can go to 700-800F both the gas fired and wood-burning varieties. At these temperatures a pizza can cook in 1 or 2 minutes. So you want to get the oven and stone as hot as possible. Other than that I agree with Phaelon56s tips.

Italian style pizza bases are made with only four ingredients - Water, Flour, Yeast and Salt. You really don't need anything else. So if you want an authentic Italian style pizza use only those ingredients for your dough. Things like the Chicago style deep dish can be very tasty but they bear little resemblance to the purity of a proper Italian style pizza. In general less is more when it comes to Pizza and Italian cuisine in general.

To avoid your problems I would say cut back on the sauce and toppings in general and put it into the highest heat oven you can obtain. Keep the dough on the wet side (this has the disadvantage of making it harder to work with but, hey, you can't have it all, can you). Preheat the oven stone for a considerable period of time because it is the thermal mass of the stone that causes the "oven spring" when the room temperature dough hits the blistering hot surface of the stone.

I often have pizza parties for 12 or 14 people and my method works well every time. I cook my pizzas at 575F for 3.5 to 4 minutes. The come out cooked through, chewy and flavoursome.

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I've been experimenting with pizza for several years now. Some thoughts/additions to the conversation, specific to a thin crust, neapolitan style pie. Nothing against casserole-style Chicago "pizza" but that's a different animal altogether and one I can't comment on.

1. Peter Reinhart wrote an awesome book called American Pie: My Search for the Perfect Pizza. It's excellent, both from a historical perspective as well as for recipes and to provide a general understanding of the intricacies of the process.

2. The higher the temperature, the better, with the following three points in mind:

2a. In my opinion, by far the best flavor outcome for crusts is when you achieve browning of the flour's natural sugars (an oversimplification) rather than the addition of outside sugars. If you add honey, sugar, milk, those sugars will brown first and will burn faster, before the flour converts and browns, and this will also require cooking at a lower temp to balance the potential burning of the crust to the cooking of the toppings. Generally: less sugar in the dough buys you time to cook the rest of the pie.

2b. Flour is important. The higher the temp you can use, the less protein you can use in your flour, yielding a more delicate inside crust. At wood oven temps, I'd suggest 50% pastry and 50% a/p flour. At conventional oven temps, I'd suggest more like 100% a/p (but no bread) flour. The 50/50 mix will come out to cracker-y at conventional oven temps. You're looking for a crisp outer crust and delicate, flavorful insides... bread flour will be too tough in my opinion. Anyway, it's worth experimenting with given your own oven and flour supplies... you'll be surprised how much of a difference it makes.

2c. Don't roll your crust, stretch it - it helps develop the gluten, and also gives you thinner crusts. Use enough flour on your hands and it's not too hard, you'll get the hang of it quickly. Then, top the pie sparingly. IMO folks tend to over-stuff their pizzas.

I also agree wholeheartedly with some other points about using the long, slow development process... this time of year especially, I like to use as little yeast as I can get away with and then I let it develop in a covered bucket in a cold closet for 24 or even 48 hours.

Lastly, use as much water as you can while maintaining a shapable dough. The high temps in the oven of course dehydrate fast, and this helps keep a toothsome end product.

Hope this helps, best of luck!

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I use a homemade dough like the recipe in Bittman's How to Cook Everything, cook the pizza on a stone, and crank my oven as high as it will go (500F). I preheat for about 30-60 mins, and let the dough rise while I'm preheating. I cook for about 10-15 minutes, or as long as the crusts can bear before becoming inedible.

Back to the OP's issue. I was thinking about this.... do you know for a fact that your oven is getting hot enough? Do you have an oven thermometer? Its entirely possible that your oven is not heating up as fast as you think... especially if you are using a stone. It took me very close to an hour to get my oven up to 500 one night last week... and I normally like to hit 550+. The cold ambient temps this time of year don't help either.

So... if you don't have an oven thermometer... get one! If you have one, nevermind!

__Jason

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I like Cook's Illustrated's meditations on pizza. Their recommendation to spike the pizza dough with cake flour to compensate for a cooler oven was a winner in my book. I hand stretch the crust to about 1/4", use minimal toppings, and bake at the highest temp my oven will go (approx. 550), as others have mentioned.

I think the thickness of the crust and the oven temp are perhaps the most important variables, as I have made some pretty loaded-up pizzas in the past and they turned out okay.

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google "encyclopizza" and that is an interesting commercial pizzaria information website. Very involved, and detailed. 8 sauce recipes depending on the type of pizza. Several dough recipes as I recall. Very interesting dissertation on the benefits of canned tomato products over fresh.

doc

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