More Knife Advice... Gyuto shootout!

[RDaneel]

Hello -

I'm relishing the thought of getting my first Japanese knives, and could really use some advice from the blade experts on the forum...

I've used Henckels for many years, but want to compliment the heavy German blades with some Japanese steel. I am getting a nakiri for vegetable prep work, but would also like a medium length knife for general purpose use. I prepare a lot of veggies, boneless chicken, fish fillets, etc. - I want the knife to work on most everything but whole chickens and other bone-in critters. I originally was leaning towards a yo-deba, but realized the blade is probably about as thick as my Henckels, and I'd like to slim it down a bit. I think this means that I want a gyuto, probably about 7" long. I know this is shorter than most gyutos, but I like the maneuverability of my 6" utility knife more than my lumbering 8" chef's, so I think a 7" Japanese style knife would be a great middle ground (I also have a 12" Messermeister granton slicer for the really big stuff).

Contenders include the Ryusen Blazen, Hattori HD series, Misono UX10, Tojiro Suminagasi series, maybe even a Nenox 8" as a stretch (I love the aesthetics of the G Type series!).

I know it's a personal choice, but I'm buying somewhat blind because I can't hold the knives or try them out. I'm going to (mostly) ignore the cost differences at this point, and want to focus on solid construction and great steel. I'll be keeping them sharp on a Edge Pro Apex (also new, and which I am loving). I believe all these choices are double bevel designs, which I prefer (I think). What do you all think? Please point out if you think I'm asking the wrong questions!

Any advice will be much appreciated!

[Octaveman]

The first thing to look at is what kind of things you want a knife for and then apply that to design or style. You say you want to get a Nakiri for veggie prep but also a gyuto for general prep. Other than veggie prep, there's not much else to prep with a knife really that would justify buying a second knife. Most Nakiri's are 6" long and if you get a 7" gyuto, that's just duplicating blades for doing the same job. IOW, the sizes are too close together to be independantly useful. Generally a Nakiri is a slicing knife, not a chopping knife. Some people use it instead of a gyuto or chef knife but it just doesn't make sense to get both IMHO.

I think this means that I want a gyuto, probably about 7" long.  I know this is shorter than most gyutos, but I like the maneuverability of my 6" utility knife more than my lumbering 8" chef's, so I think a 7" Japanese style knife would be a great middle ground

A couple of thoughts here. First, there is no need to get a series of knives that are 1" apart. You can get away with just three knives for all uses...parer, gyuto and bread knife. Second, a gyuto is far from lumbering at any length...even 12" so don't think that you should get a small one to compliment your 8" chef. Third, the gyuto should be thought of as a replacement for your heavy german blades rather than a compliment for general/veggie prep. Honestly I've never heard of anyone who has bought a Japanese gyuto say they're still keeping their heavy, easily dulled, cumbersome knives in case they want to use it to split a carrot (rather than cut it).

With that being said, I'd suggest to get a 210mm gyuto (no shorter). Don't worry about the size maybe being too big. You will not be sorry. It is very light and very maneuverable. I use 270mm as my favored size from mincing garlic to slicing cauliflower.

So, now that uses have been matched with a design/style, size has been adressed, the brand is last. Out of the knives you listed, I'd recommend the first three. You can't go wrong with either of them and they are all within the same class. All handles are very comfortable and well made. The blades are very good with the UX10 being a bit softer. The Blazen would be my top rec with UX10 my second. Hattori would be my second choice but I've had not so good experiences with the one I had. Others that own them love them and have not had the same issues I did.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[RDaneel]

Thanks, Octaveman, that's a ton of great advice.

I went ahead and ordered the Tojiro nakiri, which ran 'only' about $45. Based on your advice and some similar sentiment on another forum, I'm going to go with a 210mm gyuto rather than a 7". I'll phase out the Henckels and possibly even sell them, I guess.

As for having both the nakiri and gyuto, I'll just be a bit spoiled by having the choice!

[Octaveman]

No problem. At those prices why not get both? If you end up preferring one over the other, there's always ebay. Which brand Gyuto you decide on? Curious, what other forum are you referring to?

[RDaneel]

Hi Bob - The nakiri gets delivered today, very excited. The gyuto is still up in the air in terms of brand. I think I'm going to wait to see what the new Hattori VG-10 line looks like, it's non-damascus and should be a great value. Otherwise I think I'm leaning towards the Blazen. Really can't make up my mind till Hattori finishes the new line...

The other place I've posted is knifeforums.com, lots of pretty serious knife folks over there, though they seem to focus a lot on custom knives and such.

There aren't many places that you see names like Misono and Hattori discussed other than eG, knifeforums, and one other site I can't remember right now.

Thanks again for the advice! The one thing that is keeping me from ebaying the Henckels chef knife is whole chicken, duck, etc. They're about the only bone-in foods I work with, and I'd be concerned to use the gyuto on those. However, I have poultry shears, so the amount of blade to bone work I do is minimal. Just afraid to put a really hard edge on bone, you know? I know what you mean, though, about needing only a few good knives. Other than the random and very specialized task, I really rely on only about two of my current 6 or 7 knives...

[Octaveman]

If you're thinking about waiting for the new Hattori knives they will blow Blazen out of the water...but they are more expensive too. yes, they're non-damascus but they are primarily hand made with upgraded materials. I've tested a few of the prototypes and they are truely awesome. They will be better than the Nenox S1 series knives. Matter of fact, Hattori (who makes Nenox) will be changing the steel used on the Nenox to this steel. HERE is the initial price list that was generated last June. The prices may vary once the knives are finished and actual costs determined but this gives you an idea. If you haven't already, check out the pictures in the Useful Links section at the top of In The Kitchen at KF.

KF does have many serious people but the focus on custom knives is mostly because the mainstream knives like Blazen, Misono, tojiro et al, have been around for a long time and have been discussed and analyzed to death. So the only thing left to discuss are the Murray Carters and Watanabe or other custom knives that are more custom/hand made. If someone has a question about any mainstream knive's, they'll all be happy to talk about them. I think the other site you're thinking of is Foodieforums. There is also great knife discussions there too.

Totally use your Henckles for boning. I wasn't sure what you had or what you wanted to keep them around for.

[RDaneel]

Hey Bob - Thanks again for all this personal advice, I really appreciate your time. I'll make sure to check out more of the links on KF. I now see why Koki seemed so impressed with the new Hattori line - I didn't realize that it was the "Forum Knife" that I'd seen discussed!

As I'm buying just this one knife, I might be willing to consider that price, though it's pretty steep. I had looked at the Nenox and liked the shape and quality, but felt the steel itself wasn't up to the high standard of the Blazen and others (pure VG-10 etc.). Going to Rockwell C 62 is pretty impressive...

Decisions, decisions! If you don't mind, could you explain why you feel the prototypes "blew Blazen out of the water"? That's a pretty bold statement! I'm not doubting you in the slightest, just shamelessly using your experience and opinion to help make my decision!

[Octaveman]

Uh oh, you're calling me out? j/k. No problem at all as I seem to be on a mission as of late to talk about Japanese kitchen knives. Don't know why either. Probably subconciously wanting to dispell myths surrounding these knives that people take hold of and never let go.

There are several things that make me feel the forum knives will be that much better than Blazen. First, the element of being virtually hand made. The handle is the most comfortable thing I've ever held. It's made with high a quality material that will not shrink or swell with humidity and it's hand contoured my the maker. Blazen's handle is a factory standard with a few additional minutes applied to finishing over some other brands. It is made of wood and can shrink/swell given the right environement.

Second, the blade is VG10, yes, but it's some mutant VG10 that Hattori applies some special method for heat treating that makes for an awesome blade. The Nenox uses VG1 and until now, that VG1 was the best blade on the market for it's price point making it much better than any VG10 out there. But with the advent of this steel coupled with Hattori's own magic it just cannot be beat. SRS15 powdered steel was requested for these knives but Hattori wanted to use this VG10. Not intending to argue with a master, we agreed. So if Hattori himself would rather use this VG10 over a powdered steel like Blazen there's something to be said for that.

Third, the actual design of the Hattori knives were done in such a way as to take all things we knife nuts desire and design it into one knife. So from a design aspect: the profile, geometry, balance, taper, overall weight, materials, etc. were all considered and applied to these knives. Essentially making these a line of knives that are perfect in the eyes of their designers and represent what many that contributed ideas to their design feel are ideal in every way.

I had the prototypes for a week before shipping them off to others to review. They are awesome to sharpen, held their edge extremely well, have impecable balance and "feel", high quality craftsmanship and finishing. I have a Blazen Honesuki and comapring the Hattori to it was night and day. The Hattori did a better job of hugging the bone and the slightly rounded profile helped with getting what I wanted from the bird. The Blazen is a tough knife but the superior design has to go to the Hattori knives.

BTW, these knives are expected to be available mid March or so depending on Hattori's current backlog of orders. They will only be available at JCK.com intially then the idea is to distribute them out of Japan for resale.

Anyway, I hope this answered your question because now I'm exausted.

Cheers

[RDaneel]

It sure did, Bob, thank you so much!

I've been wading through all the info I can find on this new line, and I have to say that I'm almost completely sold. Can't wait for them to become available and find out the final pricing. I'm hoping I can fit a 210mm gyuto in the budget...

[mrsadm]

I keep my old Henkels Chef knife around for hacking through a large melon.

And I have a very nice heavy duty Wusthoff boning knife. I have a Japanese boning knife but it's so delicate I only use it for slicing.

Good luck with your new Japanese knives, I'm sure you'll love them.

[alwang]

I have a Tojiro DP Gyuto, and it's a great knife. However, I'd definitely keep your old Henckels around for tough hacking jobs: bone, thick rinds, etc. I put a couple of chips in my Tojiro doing exactly those sort of tasks. I now keep a Henckels Santoku for the rough stuff.

-a

[slo_ted]

I have several Japanese "no name" knives--santoku, nakiri, honesuki styles and I love them. What exactly is "powdered steel." I keep bumping into this term.

[Octaveman]

Powdered steel is actually not a type of steel but a process for making the steel. I'm not a metalurgist so I'm not hip to all the processes for making steel nor am I hip to what elements do what but I beleive the molten metal is blown through a nozzle at high speed in the form of tiny droplets and these droplets form the steel. This process makes for a more uniform distribution of the elements in the steel making it stronger than the standard process of making the steel. I guess in the standard process there is a possibility of weak spots due to non-uniform construction. I tried to find some info on the net but couldn't find anything definative.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[rlummis]

Try a search for "powder metallurgy." You will probably find out more than you need to know very quickly.

[TheUnknownCook]

RDaneel,

I have worked as a sushi roller. I had used a 12" roast slicer made in Japan, but it is not one of the fancy ones which you were considering.

The Knife Merchant has a good selection of Japanese cutlery. If you are searching for inexpensive Japanese-style cutlery, consider Mundial Sushimen's line. Japanese cutlery is usually single beveled on the right hand side at about a 15 degree angle and is much thinner than a traditional German double-beveled knife, e.g. Henckels knife. Henckels has been using sintering technology for quite some time now. Japanese knives need to be honed with a ceramic honing rod instead of a conventional butcher's steel. Review the thread about Knife Maintenance and Sharpening.

Octaveman,

I believe the term that you were searching for was sintering.

Edited March 1, 2007 by TheUnknownCook (log)

[C. sapidus]

This may be too late to help RDaneel choose knives, but perhaps others are facing similar decisions. As of a month age, these were our main knives (from back to front):

Chicago Cutlery paring knife

Tojiro DP 150 mm honesuki (chicken boning knife)

Chicago Cutlery 250 mm slicer

Ittosai Kotetsu 180 mm gyuto (Mrs. C’s main knife)

Hattori HD 240 mm gyuto (my main knife)

Heavy cleaver

I badly chipped the blade on the Hattori gyuto by doing something stupid. We replaced the damaged gyuto and the Chicago Cutlery paring knife and slicer with the following (back to front):

Hiromoto AS 270 mm sujihiki: I wanted a long knife that would slice meat thinly without sawing back and forth. Our old slicer dulled very quickly, so I wanted a blade that would hold its edge. I also wanted to try a high-carbon blade with stainless cladding.

Ryusen Blazen 240 mm gyuto: I loved the Hattori's handle and ergonomics, and the Ryusen is configured similarly. I hope that the powdered steel blade is more resistant to chipping, but I also plan to be more careful with it.

Tojiro DP 90 mm paring knife: a petty seems unwieldy for paring and peeling. The Tojiro DP line provides a lot of bang for the buck, and offers one of the few Western-style paring knives with Japanese steel.

We used the new knives for the first time tonight, and they were delightful right out of the box. The package from Japanese Chef’s Knife showed up in 3 days – amazing! We will probably keep the Chicago Cutlery boning knife to do stupid things like chopping up blocks of tamarind (note evidence of learning behavior ). When I get time, I’ll probably play with the chipped gyuto to see if I can make it useful.

Edited to explain why we chose each knife.

Edited March 1, 2007 by C. sapidus (log)

[RDaneel]

Thanks, C, for those thoughts and pics. I'm still working on my decision for a gyuto, and have considered that Blazen in the 210mm length. I've been very very impressed with my Tojiro nakiri, it's a wonder with veggies.

Glad that you like the parer, I'm going to get that for my parents who are getting into japanese knives after trying the Hattori 150mm baby gyuto as a all around utility knife...

[Octaveman]

Bruce, nice well rounded selection of knives. Couldn't improve on anything you have. I've had problems with Hattori HD in the past too. Great knife but I feel it has to be babied more than the others. Your layered Ittosai, Hattori HD and the Ryusen damascus are all made by Ryusen and are the same blade so be careful with the Ittosai as well. Do you do your own sharpening? If not, I can suggest a great knife sharpener in PA to fix the Hattori and change the bevels so that they're stronger.

[C. sapidus]

Bruce, nice well rounded selection of knives.

Bob: Thanks! I respect your opinion and appreciate your willingness to help others with knife questions, both here and on knife forums. Nice Mongolian beef the other night, too.

I've had problems with Hattori HD in the past too.  Great knife but I feel it has to be babied more than the others.  Your layered Ittosai, Hattori HD and the Ryusen damascus are all made by Ryusen and are the same blade so be careful with the Ittosai as well.

Interesting – Korin claimed that the Ittosai blade was harder than that of the Hattori HD (63 vs. 61 Rockwell units, if I recall).

Do you do your own sharpening?

Yes - I have read Chad’s sharpening course a few times and sharpened most of our knives with an EdgePro. I wonder if I contributed to the problem by putting a 10/15 bevel on the Hattori. What angles do you recommend for the primary bevel and back bevel on a gyuto?

  If not, I can suggest a great knife sharpener in PA to fix the Hattori and change the bevels so that they're stronger.

That would be great - I have never repaired a chip before, so I would appreciate the name of a good sharpener in PA.

[RDaneel]

I think Bob is probably thinking of Dave at D R Sharpening:

http://www.drsharpening.com/

They do reasonably priced mail order services, and Dave is said to be one of the few people around that knows how to really work well with Japanese blades...

[C. sapidus]

I think Bob is probably thinking of Dave at D R Sharpening:

http://www.drsharpening.com/

They do reasonably priced mail order services, and Dave is said to be one of the few people around that knows how to really work well with Japanese blades...

←

RDaneel: Thank you! D&R sounds perfect for fixing the blade.

[Octaveman]

Bruce, thanks. That version of M.B. turned out really really good.

Yes, Dave will fix your blade, make it stronger and sharper than anything you've ever seen and will ever see again until you send it to him again. He's amazing.

The stated HRC from various websites are questionable as it's likely that they really don't know. Korin has been known to have inconsistant info at times and the HRC is one of those things that vary from seller to seller. I've seen different ratings for the same knife before. Who do you believe?

The bevels you put on the Hattori look fine to me. The knife is ground thinner than most to begin with so I see nothing wrong with that. One thing that you might want to do to strengthen your edge is to put a micro bevel on it. This is done by increasing the angle anywhere between 5-10 degrees and do 3 or 4 light swipes per side on your highest grit you finished your sharpening on. This will help support your actual cutting edge and help keep it from chipping. This micro-bevel is very small and does not remove the knife's ability to cut with your acute 10/15 bevels.

I'm actually not sure of the exact angle I make my bevels as I use stones and have never bothered measuring. I go strictly by feel. It also depends on the knife. My Takeda Gyuto for instance gets an extremely acute angle as the AS blade can handle it. Last time I sharpened it, it was almost layed flat on the stone. I would guess that both front and back were around 7* each side. That sharpening session was in June 2006. It started to get dull in January and needs to be resharpened now. I'm not a sharpening expert so you'd get more detailed info/tips on the knife forums. Specially at KF.com where the sharpening guy, Dave in PA, posts all the time. He'd be the guy to ask all your questions.

Hope this helped.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[C. sapidus]

One thing that you might want to do to strengthen your edge is to put a micro bevel on it.  This is done by increasing the angle anywhere between 5-10 degrees and do 3 or 4 light swipes per side on your highest grit you finished your sharpening on.  This will help support your actual cutting edge and help keep it from chipping.  This micro-bevel is very small and does not remove the knife's ability to cut with your acute 10/15 bevels. 

Great idea - I'll try that.

Hope this helped.

Absolutely - thank you very much.

RDaneel: Good luck with your decision, and thanks for letting me *borrow* your thread temporarily.

[RDaneel]

No problem, always welcome to borrow a thread to get good info!!!

[Ms. Agrodolce]

I have a new question related to knife storage. We're remodelling (completely), and one question is where and how to store the knives. We have 25 or so, from Henckels, Wusthof, Sabatiers etc to Bob Kramer, George Tichbourne and other custom knives.

SO, we want the knives to be handy but not visible. Do knife drawers with wooden slots in them damage the knives? Is there some other way to store them unseen that doesn't take up 5 drawers yet doesn't damage the knives?

Like most people I use 4 or 5 knives 90% of the time, but do use the Henckels etc (mostly the Goldhamster actually) regularly.

Any tips or suggestions?

Vaughan/Ms. Agrodolce