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High end meat and fish: where to buy?


dagordon

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I'm so glad this thread was started - I was wondering if anyone knew where I could get a hold of higher end pork? At the terminal most stands have pork chops that taste comparable to what you get in the supermarkets, even if they are labeled as organic.

IIRC, Whole Foods sells Niman Ranch pork, but what if I wanted to find berkshire or kurobuta pork?

Good question. Add lamb to it.

"Half of cooking is thinking about cooking." ---Michael Roberts

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I'm so glad this thread was started - I was wondering if anyone knew where I could get a hold of higher end pork? At the terminal most stands have pork chops that taste comparable to what you get in the supermarkets, even if they are labeled as organic.

IIRC, Whole Foods sells Niman Ranch pork, but what if I wanted to find berkshire or kurobuta pork?

Try the Countrytime pork available at the Fair Food Farmstand at the RTM; call Ann Karlen or one of her associates at the stand (215 627-2029) to find out what day they expect Countrytime to delivery fresh, as opposed to frozen, meat (though I've found even frozen this is a superior pork product). It's not Berkshire or Kurobata, but iirc it's a traditional American crossbreed, rather than the type of crossbreed designed for pig farm factories.

Edited by rlibkind (log)

Bob Libkind aka "rlibkind"

Robert's Market Report

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If their pork products are anything like their hams -- I'm still seriously bummed that production problems have caused them to disappear from the store -- the Van de Rose Iowa Duroc pork that Giunta's carries should prove highly satisfactory. I can still taste that ham I made around Labor Day even now; nothing our local packers produce--not even Lancaster County's best--even comes close.

Question about Omaha Steaks, since they're very popular and I've enjoyed their strip steaks: How would they rank on a scale where Lobel's is 10, Whole Foods/Ochs at their best is 6, Esposito's retail is 5 and supermarket beef is 3 or below?

And why are people so surprised that the companies that run both restaurant supply and retail operations offer lower quality product to the retail customers? For starters, most consumers aren't as demanding as most professional chefs at better restaurants are; for another thing, most restaurant diners would be pretty disappointed to shell out beaucoup bucks for a grand meal out at a top-notch restaurant only to be served something no better in quality than what they would serve at home themselves. Ippolito's seafood may be less consistently high quality than what Samuels & Son sells to restaurants, but even on off days it's probably better than what's on offer at Acme. Same goes for Esposito's vis-a-vis the supermarkets.

BTW, I have a sirloin roast from Giunta's thawing in the fridge right now. Since my fridge seems to be keeping things right around 32F these days, it will be a few days before it's thawed enough for me to cook it. I'll report back once I have done so.

Edited to avoid lumping in places like Giunta's and Fair Food Farmstand with places like Acme, Genuardi's and Shop Rite.

Edited by MarketStEl (log)

Sandy Smith, Exile on Oxford Circle, Philadelphia

"95% of success in life is showing up." --Woody Allen

My foodblogs: 1 | 2 | 3

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And why are people so surprised that the companies that run both restaurant supply and retail operations offer lower quality product to the retail customers? For starters, most consumers aren't as demanding as most professional chefs at better restaurants are; for another thing, most restaurant diners would be pretty disappointed to shell out beaucoup bucks for a grand meal out at a top-notch restaurant only to be served something no better in quality than what they would serve at home themselves. Ippolito's seafood may be less consistently high quality than what Samuels & Son sells to restaurants, but even on off days it's probably better than what's on offer at Acme. Same goes for Esposito's vis-a-vis the supermarkets.

People are suprised because pushing products you know very well is extremely poor quality/borderline unsafe to eat into other marketing channels because retail customers as a whole arent as discerning is unethical and greedy. It's one thing if you are a wholesaler to sell to restaurants and grocery stores but when you open your own retail store to sell what mainstream grocers deem below the quality they seek for thier retail customers, that is Ubershady.

The comparison analogy of food at home VS food at a restaurant does not work, Home cooking has additional issues of creativity and technical execution, this is a simple issue of quality index.

Ippolito's stuff isnt "less consistently high quality", it is "consistently poor quality" and they have far more off days than actually sell pristine seafood. I would date the fish there to 10 to 12 days old and in most case, unless you are deep frying it twice, I would look for better fish.

Edited by Vadouvan (log)
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Ippolito's stuff isnt "less consistently high quality", it is "consistently poor quality" and they have far more off days than actually sell pristine seafood. I would dtae the fish ther to 10 to 12 days old and in most case, unless you are deep frying it twice, I would look for better fish.

i find this double deep frying method quite intriguing. kind of the opposite of sous vide AND it has the advantage that we don't have to worry quite as much about food safety. would this work for old meat as well? vegetables that have gone off?

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Ha :raz: So instead of communities doing monthly fish fries, they could do monthly fried fish fries (with an order of fried fries on the side). :biggrin::laugh:

Believe me, I tied my shoes once, and it was an overrated experience - King Jaffe Joffer, ruler of Zamunda

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I'm so glad this thread was started - I was wondering if anyone knew where I could get a hold of higher end pork? At the terminal most stands have pork chops that taste comparable to what you get in the supermarkets, even if they are labeled as organic.

IIRC, Whole Foods sells Niman Ranch pork, but what if I wanted to find berkshire or kurobuta pork?

A friend is happy with the pork he's bought from Country Time Farm of Hamburg, PA but I don't know how it compares with Niman Ranch, for eg. They sell retail at the Phoenixville Market on Saturdays.

Country Time Farm is located in the mountainside of Hamburg Pennsylvania where proprietors Paul and Ember Crivellaro run the farm. The Crivellaro family has been farming since the 1900s, originally as diary farmers in Easton, Pennsylvania. However, in 1980 the Crivellaros decided they needed to enter a new market and converted the dairy farm into a hog farm. In 1989 Paul and Ember Crivellaro needed to expand the farm, so they moved a few miles west to Hamburg. There they purchased 55 acres of land, and updated and expanded their hog farm. The Crivellaros saw an opportunity in the growing market of health foods and began raising chemical free hogs. Paul and Ember solely maintain and run the entire farm. They take special pride in their hogs, treating them as if they were their children. This is essential in providing the highest quality of pork imaginable. Since the early 1980s Country Time has grown from a small, obscure farm into one that provides the top restaurants in Philadelphia with incredibly healthy and great tasting pork.

"Under the dusty almond trees, ... stalls were set up which sold banana liquor, rolls, blood puddings, chopped fried meat, meat pies, sausage, yucca breads, crullers, buns, corn breads, puff pastes, longanizas, tripes, coconut nougats, rum toddies, along with all sorts of trifles, gewgaws, trinkets, and knickknacks, and cockfights and lottery tickets."

-- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, 1962 "Big Mama's Funeral"

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A friend is happy with the pork he's bought from Country Time Farm of Hamburg, PA but I don't know how it compares with Niman Ranch, for eg. They sell retail at the Phoenixville Market on Saturdays.

Country time is way better than Niman.

They are still small enough to care about the attention to detail.

I would usually call Paul and Ellen on monday before the slaughtering and tell them what parts I want. That is for wholesale accounts however, as a consumer, find where they sell it fresh. Great flavor and texture.

i find this double deep frying method quite intriguing. kind of the opposite of sous vide AND it has the advantage that we don't have to worry quite as much about food safety. would this work for old meat as well? vegetables that have gone off?

Hey Biggiesmalls, I hope you know I was joking, deep frying twice is the opposite of ceviche... :laugh:

So where would you recommend looking, V?

Reading Terminal on tuesday and wednesday and have them pick the ones under the ice or put away in the walk-in.

Seafood purveyors as most retailers of perishables work on the principle of what we in the bullshit exposure industry call FIFO.

"First In, First Out"

Translation : the stuff on display aint the best cuz "last-in" is fresher.

Someone has to buy the bad fish...

Is it you ? :huh:

Fact is the more knowledgeable you appear the less retailers try to pull the cashmere over your eyes.

Smell the feesh always.

Ask if anything of better quality is in house or came in recently.

Let your nose be your guide.

Speaking of Nose.

Dibruno does actually sell decent fish but if they put it under ice instead of on top of it, it would look better. The strong odor in the store does them a dis-service because it gives the impression the fish is fishy. I think they just simply should empty out the display case every evening and restock it with new ice everyday and washing the drainage system with 2% bleach solution daily.

The fish isnt actually bad, the drainage system just need work I think.

The prices however...not so great.

RTM with wise selection is still cheaper.

I feel like with the exceptions of Claudio, talluto, esposito, dibruno,perhaps a few others... the italian market just sells off goods, especially all that produce on the street which should be used for compost.

Edited by Vadouvan (log)
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A friend is happy with the pork he's bought from Country Time Farm of Hamburg, PA but I don't know how it compares with Niman Ranch, for eg. They sell retail at the Phoenixville Market on Saturdays.

Country time is way better than Niman.

They are still small enough to care about the attention to detail.

I would usually call Paul and Ellen on monday before the slaughtering and tell them what parts I want. That is for wholesale accounts however, as a consumer, find where they sell it fresh. Great flavor and texture.

...

Thanks for the additional info and the comparison with Niman Ranch. My friend said that they also sell their meat at the Fair Food Farmstand in RTM. At both the Phoenixville farmer's market (not open now) and at the RTM location the meat is previously frozen, I believe.

"Under the dusty almond trees, ... stalls were set up which sold banana liquor, rolls, blood puddings, chopped fried meat, meat pies, sausage, yucca breads, crullers, buns, corn breads, puff pastes, longanizas, tripes, coconut nougats, rum toddies, along with all sorts of trifles, gewgaws, trinkets, and knickknacks, and cockfights and lottery tickets."

-- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, 1962 "Big Mama's Funeral"

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My friend said that they also sell their meat at the Fair Food Farmstand in RTM.  At both the Phoenixville farmer's market (not open now) and at the RTM location the meat is previously frozen, I believe.

You can get the Country Time product at the Fair Food Farmstand unfrozen on day of delivery (last time I checked it was Thursdays) or by prior arrangement. As noted in my earlier response, call the Fair Food Farmstand to check delivery and/or make arrangements for fresh meat.

Bob Libkind aka "rlibkind"

Robert's Market Report

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My friend said that they also sell their meat at the Fair Food Farmstand in RTM.  At both the Phoenixville farmer's market (not open now) and at the RTM location the meat is previously frozen, I believe.

You can get the Country Time product at the Fair Food Farmstand unfrozen on day of delivery (last time I checked it was Thursdays) or by prior arrangement. As noted in my earlier response, call the Fair Food Farmstand to check delivery and/or make arrangements for fresh meat.

Thanks for the info, rlibkind. I missed your earlier reference to Country Time Pork (click) when I posted above.

"Under the dusty almond trees, ... stalls were set up which sold banana liquor, rolls, blood puddings, chopped fried meat, meat pies, sausage, yucca breads, crullers, buns, corn breads, puff pastes, longanizas, tripes, coconut nougats, rum toddies, along with all sorts of trifles, gewgaws, trinkets, and knickknacks, and cockfights and lottery tickets."

-- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, 1962 "Big Mama's Funeral"

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I feel like with the exceptions of Claudio, talluto, esposito, dibruno,perhaps a few others... the italian market just sells off goods, especially all that produce on the street which should be used for compost.

Your advice regarding fish...

Fact is the more knowledgeable you appear the less retailers try to pull the cashmere over your eyes.

Smell the feesh always.

Ask if anything of better quality is in house or came in recently.

Let your nose be your guide.

...may also be applied to produce on 9th St.

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People are suprised because pushing products you know very well is extremely poor quality/borderline unsafe to eat into other marketing channels because retail customers as a whole arent as discerning is unethical and greedy. It's one thing if you are a wholesaler to sell to restaurants and grocery stores but when you open your own retail store to sell what mainstream grocers deem below the quality they seek for thier retail customers, that is Ubershady.

It may be uber shady, but the trucks that sell produce at 10th and Vine, 42nd (??) and Sansom, and 10th and Dickinson seem to be at least fairly busy.

As I understand it, they buy the seconds, leftovers, etc. daily at the distribution center and resell them on the street.

True, consumers in general aren't as discerning as would be ideal, and I actually have no idea what the quality level actually is.

But for the consumer who is intending to cook the vegetables that night/the next day, it's probably more than acceptable quality.

The comparison analogy of food at home VS food at a restaurant does not work, Home cooking has additional issues of creativity and technical execution, this is a simple issue of quality index.

Ippolito's stuff isnt "less consistently high quality", it is "consistently poor quality" and they have far more off days than actually sell pristine seafood. I would date the fish there to 10 to 12 days old and in most case, unless you are deep frying it twice, I would look for better fish.

It's really that bad? Asks the one who never buys fish there.

Herb aka "herbacidal"

Tom is not my friend.

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Speaking of Nose.

Dibruno does actually sell decent fish but if they put it under ice instead of on top of it, it would look better. The strong odor in the store does them a dis-service because it gives the impression the fish is fishy. I think they just simply should empty out the display case every evening and restock it with new ice everyday and washing the drainage system with 2% bleach solution daily.

The fish isnt actually bad, the drainage system just need work I think.

The prices however...not so great.

RTM with wise selection is still cheaper.

I feel like with the exceptions of Claudio, talluto, esposito, dibruno,perhaps a few others... the italian market just sells off goods, especially all that produce on the street which should be used for compost.

DiBruno or Darigo? I think you mean Darigo's when it comes to fish? Or did you have Anastasi in mind? (Anastasi is the best-looking of the bunch, but I think Darigo's has the better rep.)

As for your comments about the produce: With one exception (Scott & Judy at the north end), you're dead on target. As for the storefronts, Spice Corner, Canulli's House of Pork and the specialty sausage vendor whose name also begins with C are all very good IMO -- and, of course, there's Fante's, but that's housewares.

Sandy Smith, Exile on Oxford Circle, Philadelphia

"95% of success in life is showing up." --Woody Allen

My foodblogs: 1 | 2 | 3

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The taste and "beefy-ness" of beef has as much to do with cut, imho, as it has to do with grading.

To wit: the steak I purchased from Giunta's Prime Shop Saturday.

It was a hanger steak, a.k.a. butcher's tenderloin, hanging steak, etc. Giunta's charges $5.99/pound. Lobel's $18.99 (plus shipping).

It was one of the richest, most flavorful pieces of beef it has ever been my privilege to eat. It was tender, too. All of this is not because it is "high end" but because of the nature of this particular cut. Quite simply, its flavor was superior to any porterhouse or loin strip or rib steak (one of my favs). It's not particularly attractive to look at, and its shape suggests anything but steak, but it is the steakiest steak you will ever eat.

Which brings me to dagordon's original post for this topic, or more specifically, the headline: "High end meat and fish..." With all due respect to dagordon's taste buds, the "high end" moniker sets this curmudgeon's teeth on edge. Superior-tasting, yes. High quality, yes. I'll accept those terms. But "high end" is marketer's nomenclature, and is, indeed, "snooty". "High end" is all about how high a price you can charge or how much you can afford to pay; it's not about how something tastes.

Bob Libkind aka "rlibkind"

Robert's Market Report

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Which brings me to dagordon's original post for this topic, or more specifically, the headline: "High end meat and fish..." With all due respect to dagordon's taste buds, the "high end" moniker sets this curmudgeon's teeth on edge. Superior-tasting, yes. High quality, yes. I'll accept those terms. But "high end" is marketer's nomenclature, and is, indeed, "snooty". "High end" is all about how high a price you can charge or how much you can afford to pay; it's not about how something tastes.

Well, I was using it to describe how things taste. :smile: In the context of beef, I suppose I was using it to describe something rather specific: the luxurious taste of very highly marbed, corn-fed beef dry-aged for at least a month. (When the marbling gets insanely high, such as in Wagyu with marbling grades, say, 8 or above, the dry-aged thing doesn't matter as much -- and, indeed, most Wagyu isn't dry-aged. But I was taking it for granted that I wouldn't be able to get this sort of thing around here. Also, the experience of eating a super marbled Wagyu steak really is a different one from that of eating, say, a Luger's steak.)

There's a lot of delicious beef out there. I like hangar steak as much as the next guy. One of the best briskets I've had was at Memphis in May last year, and I can't imagine that most any decent brisket cooked they way that they cooked it wouldn't have tasted nearly as good. It was delicious. Was it as enjoyable as a Peter Luger's steak? I dunno. The comparison is plainly silly.

All I'm saying is that there's a kind of beef eating experience that is occasionally (sometimes more than occasionally) what you want, and it requires, in my experience, an expensive piece of highly marbled beef dry-aged for a long time from the short loin. This is the sort of experience that a lot of people crave when they go out to steakhouses.

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Which brings me to dagordon's original post for this topic, or more specifically, the headline: "High end meat and fish..." With all due respect to dagordon's taste buds, the "high end" moniker sets this curmudgeon's teeth on edge. Superior-tasting, yes. High quality, yes. I'll accept those terms. But "high end" is marketer's nomenclature, and is, indeed, "snooty". "High end" is all about how high a price you can charge or how much you can afford to pay; it's not about how something tastes.

Several of you have gently advised me that my previous statement about the relationship between price and quality is not entirely true, and indeed, within broad categories, you do "get what you pay for."

Nonetheless, Bob said better than I did what I had in mind when I wrote what I wrote. I find the notion of spending lots of money for something that is not appreciably better than something that can be had for a reasonable price offensive.

Similarly, the concept of "good value" does not necessarily mean something is not expensive; rather, it means that relative to what you're getting, the cost is modest. The meats I've purchased from Giunta's, for instance, fall in that category. I could spend much less on a Cook's or store brand ham at either of the supermarkets I shop regularly and get an okay product. But for the same price I would pay for a Dietz and Watson boneless ham at those same supermarkets, I got an all-natural, minimally processed ham that blew everything else out of the water, it was that good. That, IMO, is an excellent value. Consider how much more I could have paid for a Honeybaked, for instance, that wouldn't have tasted as good.

Sandy Smith, Exile on Oxford Circle, Philadelphia

"95% of success in life is showing up." --Woody Allen

My foodblogs: 1 | 2 | 3

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I find the notion of spending lots of money for something that is not appreciably better than something that can be had for a reasonable price offensive.

Assuming the things in question are comparable in the first place, who doesn't?

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High-end isnt a marketers nomenclature, "UPSCALE" is.

Reverse "snootiness" is just as pointless because it involves cynicism.

"High-end" is used in the context of the best or among the best, in this case quality.

Quality has a correlation to taste and your definition is far too narrow.

Mercedes Benz makes "High-end" cars which are clearly better than Toyotas for quantifiable reasons as opposed to "how much money you can get for them"

It only makes sense if we sublimate everything to it's basic terms.

Two Cars that get you where you are going.

Two steaks that fill you up when you are hungry.

THAT certainly is not what gastronomy is about.

Edited by Vadouvan (log)
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I find the notion of spending lots of money for something that is not appreciably better than something that can be had for a reasonable price offensive.

Assuming the things in question are comparable in the first place, who doesn't?

An off-price men's wear retailer that used to do business in Old City ran print ads that ended with the slogan, "Are you secure enough to spend less?"

To you and me, your question might be rhetorical, but trust me, there are people out there who don't get this notion. They are usually the sort of status-conscious types who "pay for the name".

That assumption is an important one, though. I wouldn't claim that IKEA is equal to Thomas Moser or even Thomasville, though it might represent a better value than the latter even after factoring in the differences in workmanship and materials. (A product that uses less expensive materials or ingredients than a more costly one might still be a better value if [in the case of the furniture] it proves no less durable than the more expensive item or [in the case of a food product] produces results that are in the neighborhood of those obtained with the costlier item.) And to bring this back to the original subject, the difference in quality between Lobel's steaks and everything else might be great enough to justify the IMO eye-popping price differential. I'll never be able to answer that question to my own satisfaction without tasting one, though, and right now, I have other things I need to spend my money on. However, I am saving up for next Christmas; maybe I'll buy us a really special present.

Sandy Smith, Exile on Oxford Circle, Philadelphia

"95% of success in life is showing up." --Woody Allen

My foodblogs: 1 | 2 | 3

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This whole discussion brings to mind a Jim Quinn article from the Inky magazine about 25 years ago.

Quinn was writing about why people would spent so much money on a sweet red bell pepper. He quoted one retail food purveyor in the Fairmount neighborhood (who is still in food-related ventures in Philadelphia, btw). This merchant, paraphrasing H.L. Mencken, told Quinn:

"No one ever went broke overcharging the American public."

Bob Libkind aka "rlibkind"

Robert's Market Report

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This whole discussion brings to mind a Jim Quinn article from the Inky magazine about 25 years ago.

Quinn was writing about why people would spent so much money on a sweet red bell pepper. He quoted one retail food purveyor in the Fairmount neighborhood (who is still in food-related ventures in Philadelphia, btw). This merchant, paraphrasing H.L. Mencken, told Quinn:

"No one ever went broke overcharging the American public."

This thread is getting very odd. It seems that some people are somehow offended by the suggestion that there might exist beef in particular (has it simply been conceded that the fish offerings around here are pretty lousy?) of a level substantially better than what is available around here. The suggestion is that anyone who might from time to time prefer something better, and, yes, more expensive (even significantly) than what is available here must be simply be deluding himself into believing that it's better, or buying merely for status... (The last suggestion being particularly amusing; after all, when you're eating a steak for dinner in the privacy of your home, so many people are watching you, observing the brand steak that you purchased with jealousy. Sorry, the buying for "status" explanation isn't even remotely psychologically plausible when it comes to purchasing beef to be consumed at home for dinner.)

What is particularly odd is that certain people seemed to have ruled out a priori, as it were, that there could be a steak better than such-and-such particular steak that they've had, or better enough to warrant the price difference.

This is really weird. I mean, is there anything about the experience of eating and discovering new food that would lead one to think that one could form reliable beliefs about how an unfamiliar ingredient will taste without actually tasting it?

I guess I may approach food differently from some others, with a bit more of an open mind.

This thread began as a serious inquiry into why there is not truly high-end fish and meat available around here, and to a certain extent I suppose I've found an answer: not enough people around here have actually had the truly high-end stuff that there's enough demand for it.

That's fine. Though if Lobel's were to open in Center City I suspect news would travel fairly quickly...

Listen, folks, it's too bad that the beef that's available and affordable at RTM isn't the finest beef in the world, or even the finest beef that some of us might from time to time want to splurge on. Sorry. Deal with it. I'd really love it to be the case that $20 could provide the sort of experience that I'm looking for. Sadly, it can't.

Lobel's in particular consistently comes out on top in various blind tastings, Cooks Illustrated did one, for example. I suppose it's possible that all of these people are part of the high-end beef conspiracy?

Sometimes the more expensive stuff really is that much better. Sorry.

Edited by dagordon (log)
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