High end meat and fish: where to buy?

[dagordon]

Well, I have no doubt that I'm going to get accused of snobbery for this, but whatever.

I can't seem to find anywhere in Philadelphia that has truly high end meat and fish available to ordinary consumers.

Mind you, for most people, myself included, this would not be for daily consumption -- rather, for when you want to cook a really nice meal, every once in a while, say for a special occasion.

For example, we had friends over for dinner on New Year's eve. We were settled on doing steak as the main course. But I couldn't find any high quality, prime, dry-aged steak anywhere around here -- I ended up ordering online from Lobel's, which, of course, was extraordinary.

The level of quality I have in mind would be beef of the quality of Lobel's in nyc (or even slightly below), fish of the quality of, say, Citarella. The fish at Citarella just sparkles with freshness. The fish around here is, pretty uniformly, depressing. The stuff at Whole Foods on 9th is ok at best. The stuff at RTM (again, available to ordinary people) doesn't seem remotely to approach the quality I have in mind. Though maybe there's some secret to fish selection at RTM to which I'm not privy.

It'd also be nice to have access to good quality Berkshire pork around here. And really superb lamb, like, dare I say it again, Lobel's.

As far as beef around here I'm supremely disappointed. I think I've mentioned this elsewhere. What I've had from Harry Ochs has been extremely mediocre. (Though apprently there is stuff available at Harry Ochs that's been aged for substantially longer that what is on display, which you have to specifically ask for, and I haven't had that.) It's hard to believe that what is on display there is, in fact, USDA Prime -- if it is, it must be just barely. And the steaks are cut so thin.

I've actually had some very good to excellent steaks from Whole Foods, but they're Choice, and not aged for nearly long enough, and the quality of stuff they have available is wildly inconsistent. I've also had great Prime steaks from Wegmans, though, again, not aged nearly long enough, but lately the quality there has been deteriorating.

I had high hopes that the meat and fish addition to Di Bruno's would be what I have been yearning for. But the quality simply isn't there on the meat side. I haven't had the fish there, but it frankly just doesn't look very good.

Doesn't Philadelphia need a high-end butcher and fishmonger? (Preferably under the same roof, but I'll take what I can get.) If a place opened, say, in Center City, with high-end beef and fish, I'd have to imagine that it would do quite well. Is this not the case? Can Philadelphia not sustain what I am looking for?

I'm open to the possibility that there are hidden gems in this city that I have overlooked -- in fact, I'd love this to be the case. I'm just not optimistic that it is the case.

Edited January 18, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[Buckethead]

The best fish I've gotten in the city has come from Ippolito's, on Dickinson just east of Broad St. They're the retail arm of Samuels & Son. I am no expert, though, so I can't say how their fish compares to any of the purveyors you mention. They are usually better than Whole Foods, though.

[JasonZ]

I volunteer at one of the PHL cooking schools, where most of the instructors are chefs from the better restaurants in the area ... their fish comes from Samuels, so I would guess Ippolito's is pretty good. I buy my fish from Anastasi's at 9th and Washington. If you need something special, just call or speak with Janet Anastasi ... she gets me sashimi grade tuna, fresh pike and white fish when I make gefilte fish, fresh sardines when I'm doing a Portuguese menu. She will go to her distributors and do what's needed ...

For meat, I use both Esposito's and Cappucio's both on 9th St between Washington and Christian. Cappucio's will custom cut steaks for you, any thickness, and if you become a regular, they will hang and dry age small amounts of meat you have paid for in their refrigerator -- your risk, but if you want 40 day aged steaks 1 1/2" thick, it's the only way I know to do it locally. Esposito's handles both wholesale and retail, so if you ask for something unusual, they will have it.

[MarketStEl]

I've purchased meats from Esposito's often, and seafood from Ippolito's once -- it's a bit off my usual path so I have to make a conscious effort to go there.

I firmly believe that the relationship between price and quality is nonlinear, but if the steaks from Lobel's are so much better that they warrant the prices Lobel's charges, I'm afraid our friend is going to be disappointed with any Philadephia butcher. That said, I've found that Esposito's offers excellent value. I don't know how long they age their strip steaks, though.

So far, I've had good experiences with the Van de Rose products carried at Giunta's Prime Shop at the Reading Terminal Market as well, but I haven't tried their steaks yet, so can't comment on those.

[mrbigjas]

For meat, I use both Esposito's and Cappucio's both on 9th St between Washington and Christian. Cappucio's will custom cut steaks for you, any thickness, and if you become a regular, they will hang and dry age small amounts of meat you have paid for in their refrigerator -- your risk, but if you want 40 day aged steaks 1 1/2" thick, it's the only way I know to do it locally.

that's really interesting, i never knew they'd do that. cappuccio's also makes good sausage.

[rlibkind]

Harry Ochs will cut steaks to any size you want. Just ask.

And that's the key: just ask. I find that any food purveyor (meat, fish, produce, cheese) is happy to talk about what they sell and what they can do for you. You show an interest and they'll supply you the best of what they have.

I heartily agree with Sandy's statement that "...the relationship between price and quality is nonlinear". Since I haven't had Lobel's, it would be presumptious of me to say it's not worth the price, but when their steaks are priced at two to three times as much as the prime dry extra-aged steaks at Harry Ochs (before shipping costs are figured) I have difficulty fathoming how Lobel's could taste two or three times better.

I haven't tried the full range of his offerings yet, but what I've had at Giunta's Prime Shop at the RTM is promising. I don't think he hangs his own meat like Harry Ochs does, however, so I'd be more likely to buy porterhouse and rib steaks for the grill from Harry. I am going to give Giunta's skirt and hanger steaks a try, though.

Fish is more problematic. I've had no trouble finding decent fish at either the RTM or Ippolito's. But I'll admit that, simply because of logistics, they are rarely going to have "caught the day before" fish. In most instances it's going to be two to four days old which (if properly stored and handled) will be perfectly fine, but not perfect. A lot of the time you'd be better buying fish that had been properly frozen and thawed (which is the case with the "wild" salmon this time of the year anyway).

[dagordon]

I volunteer at one of the PHL cooking schools, where most of the instructors are chefs from the better restaurants in the area ... their fish comes from Samuels, so I would guess Ippolito's is pretty good. I buy my fish from Anastasi's at 9th and Washington. If you need something special, just call or speak with Janet Anastasi ... she gets me sashimi grade tuna, fresh pike and white fish when I make gefilte fish, fresh sardines when I'm doing a Portuguese menu. She will go to her distributors and do what's needed ...

OK, will definitely try Ippolito's.

For meat, I use both Esposito's and Cappucio's both on 9th St between Washington and Christian. Cappucio's will custom cut steaks for you, any thickness, and if you become a regular, they will hang and dry age small amounts of meat you have paid for in their refrigerator -- your risk, but if you want 40 day aged steaks 1 1/2" thick, it's the only way I know to do it locally.

This is intriguing. But don't you have to dry age basically an entire primal cut, or a large portion of one? And what's the quality of the meat to begin with?

[Vadouvan]

Gordy.

Opening another can of worms I see......

I heartily agree with Sandy's statement that "...the relationship between price and quality is nonlinear". Since I haven't had Lobel's, it would be presumptious of me to say it's not worth the price, but when their steaks are priced at two to three times as much as the prime dry extra-aged steaks at Harry Ochs (before shipping costs are figured) I have difficulty fathoming how Lobel's could taste two or three times better.

The relationship between price and quality is linear if you addd "intergrity" (of the butcher not the meat) to the equation.

Prime dry extra aged isnt neccesarily better, in fact there are 3 grades of prime beef.

Lobel's sells (High prime) which is significantly better than Harry Ochs meat.....I have had both.

Lobels is however way more expensive.

The minimum age of 95 % of the fish in reading terminal market is 6 days old, I sent samples to a lab to date the fish by bacterial growth.

Bacterial growth is necessarily bad, just depends on parts per million, remember we are eating dead animals.

sashimi grade tuna

There is no such thing as sashimi grade tuna, it's either fresh or being sold cheaper because it's going bad. The japanese only use fresh tuna.

if you become a regular, they will hang and dry age small amounts of meat you have paid for in their refrigerator -- your risk

Risky indeed, dry aging requires its own *dedicated* chamber with control of temp and more importantly humidity. Without precise humidity control, it's just old meat hanging in the refrigerator and isnt "dry aging".

The meat also picks up other odors in the refrigerator......no bueno.

Edited January 18, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[dagordon]

Harry Ochs will cut steaks to any size you want. Just ask.

And that's the key: just ask. I find that any food purveyor (meat, fish, produce, cheese) is happy to talk about what they sell and what they can do for you. You show an interest and they'll supply you the best of what they have.

Fair enough. It's just that based on what I've had from them, and the frankly sorry state of the meat that's on display, I have a hard time believing that the best of what they have is what I'm looking for. (The sort of butcher I'm looking for would not feel comfortable selling and displaying that stuff, I think.) But I suppose it's worth a try.

I heartily agree with Sandy's statement that "...the relationship between price and quality is nonlinear". Since I haven't had Lobel's, it would be presumptious of me to say it's not worth the price, but when their steaks are priced at two to three times as much as the prime dry extra-aged steaks at Harry Ochs (before shipping costs are figured) I have difficulty fathoming how Lobel's could taste two or three times better.

The relationship between price and quality is nonlinear after a point, of course. But I honestly believe that Lobel's regular beef has not yet hit the point of diminishing returns. I think their Wagyu has. If you've ever been to Peter Luger's, the beef is of at least that quality. After having a Lobel's steak, or a Luger's steak, you really wonder whether what you just ate deserves to be even in the same category as other things called "steak".

I say this with great sadness, as I, like many, cannot afford to buy this quality of meat on a regular basis. But after having it, it's really, really difficult to enjoy other beef nearly as much as you did in the past.

I haven't tried the full range of his offerings yet, but what I've had at Giunta's Prime Shop at the RTM is promising. I don't think he hangs his own meat like Harry Ochs does, however, so I'd be more likely to buy porterhouse and rib steaks for the grill from Harry. I am going to give Giunta's skirt and hanger steaks a try, though.

I was very excited when I heard that Giunta's has opened, and stopped by about a month ago to check it out... while the stuff may be a good value and perfectly fine for everyday eating, it's not the ultra high quality stuff that I'm looking for. For one thing, I remember (though I may be wrong) that the beef is grass-fed, which, of course, is going to rule out the kind of marbling and, as a result, from what I gather, the duration of aging that I'm after.

Fish is more problematic. I've had no trouble finding decent fish at either the RTM or Ippolito's. But I'll admit that, simply because of logistics, they are rarely going to have "caught the day before" fish. In most instances it's going to be two to four days old which (if properly stored and handled) will be perfectly fine, but not perfect. A lot of the time you'd be better buying fish that had been properly frozen and thawed (which is the case with the "wild" salmon this time of the year anyway).

←

I think you're probably right about that.

One thing that I haven't mentioned, but that I think is worth mentioning, is this. One of the amazing things about the ultra high quality meat and fish under discussion is that someone like myself, who shall we say is of rather limited abilities in the kitchen, can make a pretty outstanding meal without very much effort. You just have to subject the stuff to a little heat. When I unwrapped the Lobel's porterhouse for New Year's eve and put it out to warm up, my girlfriend saw it and said that it was hard to resist taking a bite out of it right then and there, raw.

With a lot of the stuff that I see in, say, RTM or Whole Foods, I think to myself, someone who is talented in the kitchen could probably make something quite delicious out of this. But the task at hand would be transforming a rather modest product into something delicious. There's a different project, that of taking a superior product and doing as little to it as is necessary to bring out its inherent qualities and make it edible. That's the sort of project that I have a hard time pursuing with a lot of the product that I see around here.

Edited January 19, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[JasonZ]

sashimi grade tuna

There is no such thing as sashimi grade tuna, it's either fresh or being sold cheaper because it's going bad. The japanese only use fresh tuna.

←

I stand corrected ... there is no FDA or USDA "sashimi" grade designation ... what is implied is very fresh fish ...

As for bacteria, or at least higher multicellular organisms, whether parasitic or non-parasitic, the fish doesn't have to be dead -- you can find them in and on flopping live fish. Bacterial counts can help you determine the likely "time of death" ... but if anyone is expecting their food to be sterile ... forget it.

If that makes you turn away from sushi, just remember -- anything in your digestive tract isn't inside your body ... the gut is a tube with the only openings going to the outside ... and we've spent millenia making sure we can defend our insides from what's in our gut. Anyway, our gut has billions of little helpers to help us digest our food ... so why shouldn't the fish have them too?

[JasonZ]

With a lot of the stuff that I see in, say, RTM or Whole Foods, I think to myself, someone who is talented in the kitchen could probably make something quite delicious out of this. But the task at hand would be transforming a rather modest product into something delicious. There's a different project, that of taking a superior product and doing as little to it as is necessary to bring out its inherent qualities and make it edible. That's the sort of project that I have a hard time pursuing with a lot of the product that I see around here.

←

For the very special ultra occasion (maybe 3-4 times per year), you may need to buy from Loebel's, if that represents the ne plus ultra for you. You can also buy from Niman Ranch (just like the guys downtown do, only at a different price) ... or from the organic farmers in Lancaster County (doesn't get fresher).

I'm more concerned with finding the best raw materials at reasonable prices for the meals I'll have 99% of the time. For that, it's hard to beat local produce, whether it comes from Lancaster County for Philadelphia or from the Central Valley for southern California ...

[mrbigjas]

The relationship between price and quality is nonlinear after a point, of course. But I honestly believe that Lobel's regular beef has not yet hit the point of diminishing returns. I think their Wagyu has. If you've ever been to Peter Luger's, the beef is of at least that quality. After having a Lobel's steak, or a Luger's steak, you really wonder whether what you just ate deserves to be even in the same category as other things called "steak".

here's what i wonder about that: new york is new york. they have everything, including over 10 million people, and are generally the cultural capital of the country. and in that whole city they have lobel's and maybe a couple other butchers of nearly that quality who are less famous. and you can't buy from where luger's buys from.

philadelphia has 10x fewer people and isn't in that situation--really it's no wonder that you can't get that quality here. i'm not saying we shouldn't be striving for it; i'm just saying that in DC and in Boston and in many other cities around the country, i don't hear about legendary super high end butchers like lobel's that sell to the public. so maybe it's not so surprising that they don't exist here either.

so yeah, maybe i'm giving the old 'we're not new york' excuse. but i'm wondering if in this case it's valid, rather than the self-hatred for which this city is famous in some circles.

for 99% of my steak-eating purposes, getting the most dry-aged stuff that harry ochs has for $16 a pound is good enough for me.

[Jeff L]

for 99% of my steak-eating purposes, getting the most dry-aged stuff that harry ochs has for $16 a pound is good enough for me.

←

You should consider that a really great price for dry aged beef. Around here, McCaffrey's in Yardley has their own dry aged beef for $22-$30 per pound depending on cut. As much as I love a really good steak, I can't see paying this much on a regular basis.

[mrbigjas]

true that, jeff, but i don't eat really good steak on a regular basis, is the thing, so splurging now and then is no big deal.

Edited January 19, 2007 by mrbigjas (log)

[Mottmott]

The minimum age of 95 % of the fish in reading terminal market is 6 days old, I sent samples to a lab to date the fish by bacterial growth.

Bacterial growth is necessarily bad, just depends on parts per million, remember we are eating dead animals.

←

Vadouvan, have you ever checked out fish from other purveyors? In particular, Ippolito.

I usually buy fish at Ippolito’s. They’re very responsive to preorders when I have a special need, say for never frozen wild fish for gravlaz. OTOH, if I query a counterman about the date of something like mussels, I get a blank response. And I must say, my experiences are mixed. One day I’ll get the most wonderful mussels, those next week? Acceptable. Shrimp? Ditto. When I can't make it there my coop carries a limited variety of fish from Ippolito/Samuels. Or I select carefully, usually only whole fish, at RTM.

Meat? as I eat so much less of it these days, I’m seriously annoyed when it doesn’t justify its sat fat! I had some really good Waygu beef from D’Angelo some time back. A couple merely acceptable standing ribs (special ordered aged prime, supposedly) from Ochs. I’ve gotten beef from them for YEARS, and I can say they’re not what they used to be. When I shop for my daily/solo cooking, I do shop Ochs or WF, depending on my route for the day. I’ve only used Giunta for beef once (shortribs), so I won’t judge them yet.

My coop carries Esposito’s meats. In the past I have shopped at 9th St. They are my very, very last resort. First, it is my impression that they do not carry the anitbiotic and hormone free meats. Second, I don’t really like their meat that much.

[Jeff L]

true that, jeff, but i don't eat really good steak on a regular basis, is the thing, so splurging now and then is no big deal.

←

Same here James. My wife wouldn't care if we ever ate steak again but since I do all the cooking... well you know, gotta have one every month or so. Usually we'll have ribeye or porterhouse from Genuardi's premium stuff.

But when I'm really in the mood to open a nice over the top red wine and fresh local peas are in season, then I need to amp up and get the dry adged stuff.

[Vadouvan]

QUOTE(Vadouvan @ Jan 18 2007, 06:43 PM)

The minimum age of 95 % of the fish in reading terminal market is 6 days old, I sent samples to a lab to date the fish by bacterial growth.

Bacterial growth is necessarily bad, just depends on parts per million, remember we are eating dead animals.

Vadouvan, have you ever checked out fish from other purveyors? In particular, Ippolito.

I usually buy fish at Ippolito’s. They’re very responsive to preorders when I have a special need, say for never frozen wild fish for gravlaz. OTOH, if I query a counterman about the date of something like mussels, I get a blank response. And I must say, my experiences are mixed. One day I’ll get the most wonderful mussels, those next week? Acceptable. Shrimp? Ditto. When I can't make it there my coop carries a limited variety of fish from Ippolito/Samuels. Or I select carefully, usually only whole fish, at RTM.

Meat? as I eat so much less of it these days, I’m seriously annoyed when it doesn’t justify its sat fat! I had some really good Waygu beef from D’Angelo some time back. A couple merely acceptable standing ribs (special ordered aged prime, supposedly) from Ochs. I’ve gotten beef from them for YEARS, and I can say they’re not what they used to be. When I shop for my daily/solo cooking, I do shop Ochs or WF, depending on my route for the day. I’ve only used Giunta for beef once (shortribs), so I won’t judge them yet.

My coop carries Esposito’s meats. In the past I have shopped at 9th St. They are my very, very last resort. First, it is my impression that they do not carry the anitbiotic and hormone free meats. Second, I don’t really like their meat that much.

Mottmott

By the was I meant " Bacterial growth *isnt* neccessarily bad ".

Regarding your Ippolito's Issues, everyone has deduced that Ippolito's is the retail arm of Samuel's and Sons and Samuels and Sons is regarded as the best seafood purveyor.

Samuel's is actually the largest seafood purveyor, who the best is is open to discussion and your relationship to the salesperson and what restaurant you are.

The Samuels-Ippolito connection by conventional wisdom would seem a positive thing but in fact my personal opinion is the opposite, I suspect that lower quality product is passed on from Samuels to Ippolitos based on examining the quality of the product in both places.

Case and point:

Consider your Mussel example.

Asking the date of mussels is a question that the government has already decided consumers should know without asking. each *BAG* of Mussels shoul by law have a tag showing harvest date and source, this applies to all mollusks and bivalves I think.

Part of the reason is it makes the forensic backtracking of shellfish borne pathogens traceable to the source.

This is the specific reason you should never buy loose mussels.

Samuels doesnt sell loose mussels so they must be breaking open bags and selling them, there is no reason to do that unless you want to move aging mussels since 1lb bags of mussels(with tags) are sold to the public.

D'angelo's is overrated and isnt clean enough for the cult status it has, Esposito's restaurant arm sells better meat than it's retail store, Wells on Delaware ave probably has the best *true* dry aged meat. As for hormone free,antibiotic blah blah, it's a catch 22 because those who sell it like th fresh food farmstand in RTM freeze it which kills most of the texture plus a lot of it is in medium grade single cryovac which sucks for long term freezing cause it ruptures easily.

Isnt vegetarianism looking more attractive ?

Hell no.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[mrbigjas]

Esposito's restaurant arm sells better meat than it's retail store, Wells on Delaware ave probably has the best *true* dry aged meat.

can the public buy from either of them?

Isnt vegetarianism looking more attractive ?

Hell no.

haha

[wkl]

but if we all went went vegetarian, v, (no fish either) that would pretty much kill the sous vide thing

[Vadouvan]

but if we all went went vegetarian, v, (no fish either) that would pretty much kill the sous vide thing

Not at all Mr president. tons of vegetables benefit from being cooked sous-vida-loca.

Peeled Chantenay carrots with green Cardamon Pods and one vanilla bean, tiny bit of grapessed oil and salt cooked SV 85C 2 hrs, cooled and caramelized with butter are about the best things I have ever tasted.

Also baby Fennel bulbs in the spring with Tarragon and elderflower syrup.

Good sheet.

[dagordon]

Meat? as I eat so much less of it these days, I’m seriously annoyed when it doesn’t justify its sat fat!

Agreed, this is certainly a consideration.

For this reason, and also because of how truly amazing very top quality beef can be, I'll take a top quality steak every, say, 2 months over a merely ok to good one every two weeks. (And cost wise this works out as well. Replace the meals where you would have had steak with something cheap and in not too long you'll have enough for Lobel's.)

I do think that there is a fair amount of room in between what's available around Philly now and Lobel's. (That's what motivated my original qualifiaction that I'd like to see something lof quality comparable to Lobels "or even slightly below".) The very best that a dry aged NY strip can be at Whole Foods when it's properly cut is actually quite good, but the steaks there are rarely of this quality. If a place could regularly supply steak of this quality or even slightly better for, say, $25/pound, would that not be desirable to many people?

[MarkIsCooking]

For top quality mail-order fish, go to Browne Trading

They service several high end restaurants and do mail-order to consumers as well.

I did Nobu's Miso Cod with black cod I got from Browne's and I have friends that still talk about it.

-Mark-

[Vadouvan]

We know about Browne's, they make Lobel's prices seem like KMart, the quality is good but thier retail prices amount to gouging plus the shipping charges are absurd.

[Mottmott]

For top quality mail-order fish, go to Browne Trading

They service several high end restaurants and do mail-order to consumers as well.

I did Nobu's Miso Cod with black cod I got from Browne's and I have friends that still talk about it.

-Mark-

←

My son & dil lived in Portland for awhile, so I had a chance to buy some of their fish in their retail store. Frankly I think they do what Ippolito's probably does, fob off what they haven't sold to restaurants or mail order retail where they must use the freshest fish to compensate for shipping timne.

I was in RTM late this afternoon. I was in too much of a hurry to check out all the fishmongers as I was there for a stewing chicken. But I did look in the case of the fishmonger on the Filbert St side - where I NEVER shop. Sad, sad.

Which brings me to the point that the first step is to have some idea of what fish/meat should look like. Trust no one completely. I sometimes buy strip steaks at WF. I look at them carefully and if they pass muster, select exactly which one I buy, concentrating on the amount and configuration of marbling. I usually get a decent one. To my surprise, most people just say how many they want and let the counterman randomly pull them out of the case.

I agree with Vadauvan about frozen meat, and I don't buy any even though I'd like to support people who sell organic meat. They will preorder some things fresh for you, I believe, but I'm not usually that organized. Giunta now carries fresh organic meat and both Ochs and WF carry hormone/antibiotic free.

Ironically, I have in my freezer two pricy gift packages of frozen beef from online Omaha.

[ellencho]

I'm so glad this thread was started - I was wondering if anyone knew where I could get a hold of higher end pork? At the terminal most stands have pork chops that taste comparable to what you get in the supermarkets, even if they are labeled as organic.

IIRC, Whole Foods sells Niman Ranch pork, but what if I wanted to find berkshire or kurobuta pork?