Chef's Choice vs. Prof. Knife Sharpening?

[rotuts]

its a bit simple:  look at the edge under a stereo microscope before and after.  any blade.  feel the heat this thing generates.

 

it turns knives all knives into little saws.

 

this has been covered over at Knife forum a while back.

 

obviously " completely destroy " is a relative term. turning a knife into a little saw is not.  you need 40 - 50 x to see this

 

100 x even better

[NEPolarbear]

Does any system / manufacturer show before and after images from a microscope?

Have seen plenty of diagrams, but no images.

 

Have been using the Spyderco, but am looking towards using stones or EdgePro.

[paulraphael]

I don't know if it would destroy any good Japanese knife, but I wouldn't use my knives as a guinee pig. The heat would worry me a bit. But I don't know enough about metalurgy to say for sure that these knives would heat up more than other knives, or that their heat treatment is more fragile.

 

I'd really be worried about chipping, especially on knives with thinner profiles and more brittle steels.

 

But mostly I'd be dissatisfied with the performance. The finest grit applied by that machine isn't fine, and edge angles are too obtuse. It will improve a lot of European knives, but would impair a higher end Japanese knife.

Edited March 17, 2014 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

Does any system / manufacturer show before and after images from a microscope?

Have seen plenty of diagrams, but no images.

 

Have been using the Spyderco, but am looking towards using stones or EdgePro.

 

 

Does any system / manufacturer show before and after images from a microscope?

 

Plenty of knife nuts have posted this kind of image. I wouldn't necessarily trust one from a manufacturer. Microscopy can teach you what kind of edge your likely to get from different grit sizes on different knife metals. 

 

Some people get a cheap USB microscope to examine their own handywork. You can see how good a polish you're getting, how even a bevel, and you can diagnose problems like wire edges, or missing the edge entirely.

[rotuts]

Im not sure what Freud would say about this:

 

"  Plenty of knife nuts have posted this kind of image "

 

but its true.   I had a CC a very very long time ago.  still have it.  somewhere.  in the basement.  collecting dust.

 

it did take my few stainless steel FR. knives   ( sabatier of middle to lower quality ) at the time and get them sharp.

 

but I could feel the sawblade effect, and moved on.

 

sometimes things are so obvious, its said  " They Speak for Themselves " or " They make their own argument "

 

this is one of the cases.

 

mid to low end BB&B works 'OK'  dont get the knives with the european 'bolster' or whatever it called.  won't pass through the grinder.

 

'jewels' loops  at amazon tell you a lot about what you are doing

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=jewelers+loupes&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=32985906385&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13417360944952041020&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_3uqn6x6qyi_b

 

40 x is about a high as usefull in this case.  I have a set.  great fun.

Edited March 17, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[Shel_B]

mid to low end BB&B works 'OK'  dont get the knives with the european 'bolster' or whatever it called.  won't pass through the grinder.

 

 

I had a couple of my German knives sharpened on a CC, and while my friend did a good job using the machine, I ran into some dissatisfaction with the way the knives were sharpened near the bolster.  Here's somewhat of an example of what I encountered, but not to so great a degree, as the knives were only sharpened once with the CC:  http://www.niceandsharp.com/Bolster_Adj/Bolster_Adj.htm

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I would not want a chef's knife with a bolster.

[NEPolarbear]

Thanks for the ideas on using a loupe or a USB microscope to check out the edges.

[paulraphael]

I would not want a chef's knife with a bolster.

 

I have a German knife that I love for heavy duty stuff, but the bolster was making me crazy. I couldn't sharpen all the way to the back by any method. So I had Dave Martell at japaneseknifesharpening.com grind it down for me. The bolster's still there, but it's out of the way enough to let stones get to the edge. Not sure if you'd be able to use a cc machine though.

[dcarch]

A great way to help sharpening by hand is the "Sharpie" trick to keep the correct angle.

 

dcarch

[Barrytm]

I am not a professional knife sharpener, but probably have spent over $750 on sharpening equipment for woodworking tools  ( water stones, diamond stones, loose diamonds, grinders, powered sharpeners, ceramic stones, and microfinishing films )  For by best japanese knives I go with microfinishing films,  but for ordinary kitchen chef knives this does a great job for under $5.00 - and you can keep it in the knife drawer and use it and put it away in a few seconds, which means you are more likely to use it and keep your knives sharp. http://www.amazon.com/Smiths-CCKS-2-Step-Knife-Sharpener/dp/B00032S02K/ref=sr_1_4?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1395106683&sr=1-4&keywords=knife+sharpener      BTW,  if you haven't tried microfinishing films, they are pricey, but last a long time when used with a little mineral oil.   I get the PSA's and stick them to a piece of granite.  Also  I second both the use of a Sharpie and a  3, 5 and 10 power loupe to examine what you are doing.  

[dcarch]

"-----BTW,  if you haven't tried microfinishing films, they are pricey, but last a long time when used with a little mineral oil. ------"

 

Wet/dry carbide sandpapers are not expensive and last a long time. They take no room to store.

 

They come in many grits, rough to very fine.

 

 

dcarch

[Shel_B]

A great way to help sharpening by hand is the "Sharpie" trick to keep the correct angle.

 

 

And for us ignorant dolts, what's the "Sharpie trick?"

[rotuts]

to see the sharpie trick, go to the edgepro site and watch a few of their vids

 

basically, you mark the edge w a sharpie, adjust the jig so that the mark is taken down to bare steel

 

its a way to find the true manufacturers angle and to set a new angle

[paulraphael]

I learned to sharpen with wet/dry sandpaper, because the cost of entry is low. But I found that the paper clogs pretty quickly, and I was going through it fast enough that it was an expensive and frustrating longterm solution.

 

So I got a set of entry-level waterstones, with the expectation that when I wore those out I'd be competent enough be merit an upgrade. This approached worked pretty well. 

 

I still have my medium-grit beginner's stones, but finish on a Naniwa 10,000 grit stone (really nice), and touch up on a strop that's just a sheet of paper spray-mounted to flat board, rubbed with some 1-micron abbrassive powder. The strop is just quicker and easier than a waterstone, because no water is required. It gives as fine a polish as any knife steel can take, and lets me put off the stones for a week or so longer I could otherwise.

 

With sharpening, there are many different tools and techniques that are ultimately capable of getting you to the same place. The choices are mostly about ease, efficiency, and economy. The better you are at sharpening the less it matters how you get from coarse to fine.

 

This isn't to say that all tools are equal. Diamond stones and wheels, oilstones, and ceramic rods will not come close to waterstones, automotive sandpaper, or abrasive powders. Their abrasives are just too coarse.

[rotuts]

"""    The better you are at sharpening the less it matters how you get from coarse to fine.  """

 

very true.

 

there are these:

 

http://www.edgeproinc.com/Sharpening-Accessories/Polish-Tapes-c9/

 

and these:

 

you can go way beyond what you need in the kitchen with ultra fine abrasives and jewel's polish on a piece of leather.

[dcarch]

A good steel knife will almost never be dulled cutting meat and vegetables. Go to youtube and look for a few sushi chef slicing fish, the main blade never touches the cutting board.

 

If you keep a general use knife for rough cutting, and a very sharp knife for fine cutting, you will not need to sharpen your knives very often.

 

dcarch

[rotuts]

""   the main blade never touches the cutting board.  ""

 

this has been discussed before.  Im not a student of the 'never' but of the 'hardly ever' ::

 

 

 

Chorus.
What, never?

Captain.
No, never!

Chorus.
What, never?

Captain.
Hardly ever!

 

H.M.S. Pinafore   G&S

[dcarch]

"---will almost never be dulled cutting meat and vegetables"

 

My blade is made of D-2 tool steel. D-2 is used to cut other steel and still remain sharp for a long time. "almost never" is not an exaggeration if you are only cutting meat and vegetable.

 

dcarch

[paulraphael]

Most of the techniques I use for vegetables put the knife edge on the board. Not agressively, like in Euro techniques, but enough that it takes a delicate touch to prevent edge dammage. I'm pretty good at this but not 100% consistent. My chef's knife has a very thin edge and it doesn't take much to get a chip or flat spot. 

 

I learned a lot of my technique from KC Ma, a Japanese-trained chef who's generous about sharing his skills. Mostly the hybrid techniques Japanese chefs use when preparing Western food with double-bevel knives. He posted some demo videos before he died last year.

 

I think the chive video is the most impressive. If you can learn to cut herbs like this, you'll be able to prep them 10 hour in advance and they won't brown or lose any percepible flavor. It's harder than it looks, and you'll need a serious knife and sharpening chops, and if you're a pro your chef will probably have no idea what you're doing and will make you do it his way.

[Smithy]

Those are impressive and inspiring links, paulraphael. Thanks for posting them.

It's clear that the knife blade is making contact with the cutting board, at least in the two videos I watched. (So far I've seen the chive and the potato videos.) Would you classify the contact in these videos as the delicate touch instead of the aggressive touch?

[scubadoo97]

Thanks for posting Paul. I thought that chive video looked familiar. I remember K.C. Ma from the KichenKnifeForum. What a shame and loss

[dcarch]

Re. The videos:

 

I will never use the edge to scrape on the cutting board. A quick way to mess up all the hard sharpening work.

 

Use the back spine instead.

 

dcarch

[paulraphael]

I will never use the edge to scrape on the cutting board. A quick way to mess up all the hard sharpening work.

 

Use the back spine instead.

Me too. KC could get away with it, I can't. We had the same knife and he sharpened to an even more fragile angle than I did. I cringe whenever I see the edge scrape the board. I think he just had an incredibly light touch.

[paulraphael]

Those are impressive and inspiring links, paulraphael. Thanks for posting them.

It's clear that the knife blade is making contact with the cutting board, at least in the two videos I watched. (So far I've seen the chive and the potato videos.) Would you classify the contact in these videos as the delicate touch instead of the aggressive touch?

Very delicate. The edge is just tapping the board. In many cases he's using less force than the weight of the knife. 

 

Contrast with Western rock-chopping, where you push the blade down and forward against the board with a shearing action ... using enough force that cooks get calluses on their knuckle.