Stand Mixers VS. Bread Machines

[paulraphael]

\ The motor casing does get warm if it runs for 20-30 minutes, and that is at level 4. \

A KA technician would have a heart attack if they heard this! They're adamant about using speed 2 only for kneading bread. On speed 1, the engine doesn't have adequate cooling, on 3 and above it's working too hard.

Also, 20 to 30 minutes is a long, long time to be kneeding by machine. If you're using an unusual dough that requires this, it might be helpful to try a couple things. First is Autolyse, which means to let the dough sit for 20 minutes or so after it's been hydrated (sometimes just the flour, without the yeast and other ingredients added) and knead afterwards. This lets time take care of much of what the kneading ordinarily does, and you can knead much less. The other is to to do your kneeding in 5 or 10 minute rounds, with some cool off time in between.

In any case, I'd be sure to do a windowpane test early on ... my guess is the dough is ready long before 30 minutes, and all you're really doing past that is oxidizing the dough and heating the motor.

[srhcb]

\ The motor casing does get warm if it runs for 20-30 minutes, and that is at level 4. \

A KA technician would have a heart attack if they heard this! They're adamant about using speed 2 only for kneading bread. On speed 1, the engine doesn't have adequate cooling, on 3 and above it's working too hard.

Also, 20 to 30 minutes is a long, long time to be kneeding by machine.

←

Recipes usually suggest machine kneading times of about one-half the time of hand kneading.

I've generally found this to be more than adequate.

SB (resists making a "needing" pun)

[tafkap4d]

i have a KA Professional 6 and I hate making bread but when I make it using the KA...HEAVEN! I've not had any issues with overheating.

[Marlene]

I have a KA artisan and when I made a brioche in it the other day, using a recipe that specifically calls for using a stand mixer, it was working pretty hard and it did get warm. I just received a 600 Pro last night, so I'll be interested to see if it can handle it any better.

[RDaneel]

Wow, I'm surprised that you're so surprised! Thanks so much for the feedback, I'll try autolysing the dough next time. It's a pizza dough recipe from Good Eats, makes great dough, but it takes a long time to reach the point it windowpanes. I test it about every 5 minutes, and there is a clear breakpoint when it goes from gummy to stretchy and the windowpane works. I find that level 3 or 4 works better than two for small amounts of dough, as the slow speeds tend to chug along a bit (the hook doesn't move as smoothly or evenly), so I sped it up. I'll try to back it down a bit in the future!

[slowday]

I'm sure this was in another thread but I couldn't find it so here I am.

I was planning to finally get one of the kitchenaid stand mixers because I want to start making bread come the fall and I don't want to knead by hand. My wife came home with a breadmaker she bought at a flea market for five dollars US. It works and seems to turn out a reasonable dough.

But I have a couple of questions. The first is whether there is a difference between the dough from a stand mixer with a dough hook and a bread machine paddle. I don't intend to use the mixer for anything else as I don't really like cookies, cakes or other pastries. If there is not a big difference then I can take the three hundred or so dollars and put it to a better oven.

If I stay with the bread maker to make dough, should I use the bread machine recipes for mixing the dough, including the bread machine yeast and special flours. Or can I use any recipe for dough since its not being actually baked in the machine but in an oven.

And lastly, about that oven. I'm going to be getting a new oven this fall. I plan to do a lot of bread baking. Does bread care much whether its baked in a convection oven? I went window shopping at the local dealer and there seemed to be a lot of models with a convection oven but I'm not sure if its something I should be concerned with.

Thanks

Allan

[Khadija]

I wanted a stand mixer for making bread dough, but my partner bought me a food processor with dough-blade instead. I was perfectly happy with that, though I hear there are issues about the dough-blad "tearing" the dough. I am not an adept enough bread baker to perceive this problem. Then, a friend gave me an old bread-maker. I used this for dough for awhile. I found the dough acceptable, but in the end prefer the food processor. I found I lacked control with the bread-maker (less room to make adjustments for environmental conditions and the features of the particular ingredients being used). I also found the bread maker noisy. One point in favour of the bread-maker is that it was a bit less labour intensive, as it has a self-contained resting place, and timer, etc.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Khadija (log)

[Terrasanct]

I'd go for the KitchenAid mixer. Even if you don't like pastries, you'll find many uses for it besides bread. And it will last a lot longer than the bread machine. Besides, a bread machine only makes bread, a stand mixer does all kinds of things.

What I'd do is buy a new mixer and find a good used bread machine--they're everywhere.

[Marlene]

I'd also go for the stand mixer. I do have a breadmaker, but use it mostly to make pizza dough or spelt loaves of bread when my friend's son comes over.

You will be limited in the types of dough you can make in a bread maker, so it depends on what you want to make. On the other hand, a stand mixer is good for all kinds of things, not just cakes and cookies. I use mine to make mayonnaise, and other sauces as well as mixing beef etc for hamburgers.

One other thing though. I found that my little Artisan KA did not knead well. It ran pretty hot when kneading for 10 to 12 minutes or more. I moved up to the KA 600 Pro to get good results on doughs that must be kneaded that long, when I started making a lot of bread. I was concerned about burning out the motor in the smaller one.

I don't use a convection oven to bake bread, but I do use convection to roast, bake cookies and other things. In fact, I'd never roast any other way but convection now.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Marlene (log)

[SundaySous]

Give the wife $20 and send her back to that flea market for a mixer.

Do get the convection oven. One with a built in temperature probe.

You'll have to adjust your baking techniques they hold temps so true.

[Terrasanct]

If you can find one, I'd get an older KA, as they are made a lot better, and you can get one for a lot less. I've had mine for 30 years and not a single problem with it.

[susanfnp]

I have to agree with the consensus: go for the stand mixer, with a spiral (as opposed to C-shaped) dough hook if possible, and the convection oven. You will have a lot more flexibility with the mixer. I rarely use convection for bread but it's great for other baking.

[slowday]

If you can find one, I'd get an older KA, as they are made a lot better, and you can get one for a lot less.  I've had mine for 30 years and not a single problem with it.

←

I think one of the reasons I was curious about the bread machine is the small number of negative reviews on the kitchenaids on Amazon. Even though the number is pretty small, they pretty much run the same; plastic gears, can't handle stiff dough, and not as good as the old ones. That gave me some hesitation; and the five dollars versus the couple of hundred helped lead my thinking. I'm not a tightwad, but I do get kind of frugal in the face of a cheaper, and possibly equal alternative.

The food processor is something I've read before in a few books. Always seemed like an off-handed suggestion between hand kneeding and dough hooks. But if it works, I'm going to give it a try. Like of lot of food processors, we got ours for our wedding and its been sitting undisturbed in a cubby somewhere. I just can go faster than a food processor for the small amount of cutting I have to do. I remember it came with a plastic blade and its probably still sitting there waiting for its moment.

The true temperature convection oven sounds like something I should get. The range we have came with the place, has a maximum of 450 and I could clean it but I think the caked on grease is what's holding the heat in. Having something accurate to cook in might actually take some getting used to.

Guys, thanks for all the advice, all pretty good. I think what I'm going to do is give my wife fifty dollars to start cruising around flea markets looking for a used mixer while I go down to our local appliance dealer and spend a few thousand on a new range. And if the proper mixer can't be found, I get a very dependable bonus after the first of the year to go to a new kitchen aid. And in the meantime, I'm going to experiment with the food processor to see how it matches up against my five dollar bread machine. The processor has a lot going for it. It was free.

[KarenDW]

I think one of the reasons I was curious about the bread machine is the small number of negative reviews on the kitchenaids on Amazon. Even though the number is pretty small, they pretty much run the same; plastic gears, can't handle stiff dough, and not as good as the old ones. That gave me some hesitation; and the five dollars versus the couple of hundred helped lead my thinking. I'm not a tightwad, but I do get kind of frugal in the face of a cheaper, and possibly equal alternative.

I'm a big fan of the KA Pro series, w/ the bowl lifter. Mine is a 6 qt bowl, 525Watt model. It is now more than 5 yrs old, and I have routinely mixed 5+ lbs of dough. Not at all familiar w/ the smaller KA mixers, but I can just imagine... would not hold up to the sort of punishment mine does. Having said that, I also have a 5 qt 475 watt in a box in the store-room, as a backup.

As well as mixing dough, I have also used for: mixing ground meat for loaves or meatballs; using the attachment for grinding meat; mixing salad dressing. My hubby wanted to get the pasta rolling attachment, but I prefer hand wound rollers. There is also a juicer attachment, I think.

Check the warehouse clubs/Sam's/Costco for the KA mixers. Or, ask at the appliance stores which repair KA, and see whether they have one in a "broken box".

Edited August 15, 2007 by KarenDW (log)

[paulraphael]

A great place to get a KA mixer is from their online outlet store. You can get a factory refurb Pro 600 for $240. Most of these have never been used ... any mixer that gets returned by a store or freight company has to be sold as a refurb.

I wouldn't worry about the quality issues. Most KA mixers break because people don't know how to use them. Some of them are legitemately defective. In either case, the KA warranty is excellent. They replace the things no questions asked.

The only way to get superior quality is by paying many times as much for a pro mixer like a hobart. I think this would only be worthwhile if you're making production quantities of bread. Other home mixers like the DeLohghi have plenty of quality control problems of their own, but without the customer service network that comes with KA.

That all being said, I would absolutely get the mixer over a bread machine. I really don't like single-purpose appliances. I don't even think a bread machine is as useful as a mixer for making bread.

[slowday]

A great place to get a KA mixer is from their online outlet store. You can get a factory refurb Pro 600 for $240. Most of these have never been used ... any mixer that gets returned by a store or freight company has to be sold as a refurb.

←

Just took a waltz over to the kitchenaid outlet site and the deals are amazing. The 6qt bowl lift model is about a hundred off the amazon price for new. And I'm making stiff doughs as regular as I think I will, I should know if the machine is going to give up before the six month warranty wears out.

Karen DW mentioned making 5lbs of dough at a time which is really what I was thinking of. I thought that on Sunday during the Football season I would keep the bread machine going making pizza dough to freeze while the games were on. But if I can make the dough in a couple of loads in the kitchenaid instead, that has to be better that tying myself to the beeps of a bread machine for the better part of a day.

Plus I never thought of the non-pastry things that the mixer and a few choice attachments would be good for.

This afternoon I cleaned out the five dollar unit and gave it a try. And that was that. It worked but it was a very unsatisfying experience. It made bread ...of a sort. For five dollars, I got my moneys worth in entertainment. While I wait for the Kitchenaid outlet to have my wife's choice of colors (she wants red..this may take awhile ) I'm going to take the food processor out of its hiding place and give it a little exercise. But I'll be making dough with the stand mixer before the first frost even if the wife has to give up on the red.

Thanks for everything

Allan

[paulraphael]

the forums at the KA site are a great source of info. there are people there who live and breathe mixers ... kinda strange! but some of them know a lot.

one tip i got is to call the actual ka outlet stores. they often have mixers/colors etc. not listed on the refurb site, and possibly with even bigger discounts.

[zoe b]

I think you should get the KA if you want it--but don't give up on bread machines--I make great bread in mine--both using it as a mixer/proofer and going the whole cycle.

You have to have the right machine, though, since it does everything, you have to have one that does it right.

Apparently, the zojirushi is the best--pricey, and one hasn't turned up at the thrift store, yet--but the Breadman is excellent--I didn't try it for a long time because I assumed, being a tv product it would be crappy, not so, it makes beautiful bread.

The next most important thing is the right cookbook--Beth Hensperger's --I think it's The Ultimate Bread Machine Cookbook. It has hundreds of recipes, and every one I've tried has been good--some are great.

The next thing is gluten--you might think it's unnecessary, but it makes all the difference in BM breads.

Zoe

[dougal]

If the primary goal is to knead dough (and any other functionality is a bonus), THE home mixer to consider surely ought to be the strange (unique?) Electrolux Assistent (yes, the spelling is correct ) - see for example http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/magic_mill_dlx_mixer.aspx

Its a home mixer that can handle 15lb of dough... and by all accounts, handle it rather well. (It isn't imported/supported in the UK otherwise I'd be speaking from personal experience! )

And yes, it does look strange tipping it on its side to take the mincer... but it seems to be one heck of a good *dough* mixer...

[mhjoseph]

I think you should get the KA if you want it--but don't give up on bread machines--I make great bread in mine--both using it as a mixer/proofer and going the whole cycle.

You have to have the right machine, though, since it does everything, you have to have one that does it right.

Apparently, the zojirushi is the best--pricey, and one hasn't turned up at the thrift store, yet--but the Breadman is excellent--I didn't try it for a long time because I assumed, being a tv product it would be crappy, not so, it makes beautiful bread.

The next most important thing is the right cookbook--Beth Hensperger's --I think it's The Ultimate Bread Machine Cookbook.  It has hundreds of recipes, and every one I've tried has been good--some are great.

The next thing is gluten--you might think it's unnecessary, but it makes all the difference in BM breads.

Zoe

←

I agree with Zoe that you can be very creative and do great bread in a bread machine. I regularly make dough for all kinds of "artisan" breads from "The Bread Baker's Apprentice and "Rustic European Breads from Your Bread Machine" in the machine and shape and bake manually. You can manipulate the times for longer fermentations and make pre-ferments in the machine and come back hours later to make the finished dough.

The biggest limiting factor, which makes me wish for a KA, is being able to only make two loafs at a time. I do find that you can knead six cups of flour in slack dough even though the manufacturer recommends no more than 4 1/2.

Edited August 16, 2007 by mhjoseph (log)

[Kayakado]

I made bread for years in a food processor before I got a KA or bread machine. I actually got the bread machine before the KA. The advantage of having a bread machine is that you can set it and forget it (where have we heard that) and it bakes the bread in the machine. A great plus when all the other ovens (I have 3) in the house all full - like big holiday meals and you are trying to do many things at once.

The FP and the KA make great bread and do other things besides but you still have to be there periodically to interact with the dough unlike a machine.

[paulraphael]

I've used a food processor for bread quite a few times. It works surprisingly well. But it can't make a lot of dough (not sure how many lbs it can handle, but I doubt more than a couple) and the machine works so hard I'm afraid it might explode if I made bread often.

[sammifloater]

i had an old bread machine that was awesome at making dough and made a decent baked loaf when i wanted one

it was an oster i think....

anyway the lining in the breadpan has started flaking off into my dough and needless to say i wont bake another loaf in it

it is headed for the trash....

question is do i buy another bread machine (i use it 90% of the time for making dough for other things) or get that super fantastic kitchenaid that is really expensive but makes dough and does alot of other useful things...

???

btw i am not sure what kitchen aid models these days are expandable (sausage grinder, pasta maker etc) and would appreciate some advice

would rather put $100 into a kitchenaid than another bread machine that wont do the work

Edited December 10, 2007 by sammifloater (log)

[Icanmakeit]

btw i am not sure what kitchen aid models these days are expandable (sausage grinder, pasta maker etc) and would appreciate some advice

would rather put $100 into a kitchenaid than another bread machine that wont do the work

←

My mother in law gave me a bread machine a long time ago. My husband refused to eat anything that came out of it. He has been so spoiled over the years with homeade bread that the machine became and 'interloper'. I didn't mind it, taste was OK, shape was kind of weird when it came out but serviceable when sliced etc.

I traded it for a computer -

Prior to this, I have had the basic Kitchhen Aid mixer for 16+ years (they now call it "The Artisan")before my husband bought me the Pro 600 last year for Xmas. I gave my old mixer to a good freind who would have never bought one for herself but loves to cook. It looked like it had been hit by a train, but still worked great.

I kept all my attachments. The pasta maker, shredder, meat grinder and sausage funnel thing and they all work with the new machine just fine.

If you love to not only bake bread but cook in general, you will kick yourself wondering why you kept 'just a breadmaker' for so long. It's great for mixing, whipping, kneading etc.

[kbjesq]

I cast my vote for another breadmachine - specifically, this one made by Zojirushi. It makes great bread (not weirdly shaped, either) and has variable dough settings, plus a timer so you can wake up or come home to fresh bread.

Unlike many breadmachines, you can make a decent-sized (2 lb) loaf, or a smaller one if that suits you.

Which is not to say that you should not also get a stand mixer. . . .