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Per Se


oakapple

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Thanks everyone. I do think that I'll have to go soon. My main concern was just being distracted from the food by other outside factors (service and annoying people) but it's good to know the tables are well spaced.

As for perfection, I'm not sure what it in fact even is, although we often find ourselves in pursuit of it - but I do love to be wowed by food, whether through ingenious flavors combinations of a mastery of simplicity. Keller's food mostly looks very impressive but there are so many other options in New York it's difficult to committ sometimes for me to the higher priced options. But Per Se seems too tempting not to at least go once.

Also, although everyone seems to by default include alcohol into the price, I'm thinking of really not indulging in alcohol when I go. My other half isn't much of a drinker and, along with the price consideration, I want to be completely into the food. While I often enjoy drinking at restaurants with other people, it's because the occasion has become a more social one and here I think I want to not distracted by the alcohol. As much as I enjoy food and wine, I often find I enjoy them better separately. However, I haven't ever really done a tasting menu over 5 or 6 courses and over the course of a longer tasting menu I might be more tempted to have a glass or two.

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I think the reason for "alcohol being included in the default price" is that many folk (including myself) consider wine a default part of the dining experience, especially at this sort of level with this cuisine. While I might go to Masa and drink only tea (it's done in some Japanese culinary contexts), I would never go to a restaurant that is essentially doing French haute cuisine with some "American" touches and fail to order wine. Not to say that teetotaling with this food is "badwrongfun," but rather that I think the "default" for this sort of cuisine tends to be with wine(s) rather than without.

As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat, but my preference would be to have two meals at JG, or a meal at JG and one at the Modern. The service is utterly stellar, but the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor. Do you get what you pay for? Sure. Is it necessarily going to be worth it even for someone with $450 to burn? No.

Mayur Subbarao, aka "Mayur"
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The service is utterly stellar, but the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor. Do you get what you pay for? Sure. Is it necessarily going to be worth it even for someone with $450 to burn? No.

That is so well said.

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The service is utterly stellar, but the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor. Do you get what you pay for? Sure. Is it necessarily going to be worth it even for someone with $450 to burn? No.

That is so well said.

Echo.

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Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

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As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat....

I find this a little difficult to comprehend. You can go in a side entrance, take an elevator, and walk into Per Se. Your exposure to the "mall" lasts a grand total of about 4 minutes; the meal, about 4 hours.
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As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat....

I find this a little difficult to comprehend. You can go in a side entrance, take an elevator, and walk into Per Se. Your exposure to the "mall" lasts a grand total of about 4 minutes; the meal, about 4 hours.

Exactly.

And, and don't forget the shoppers gawking at the front trellis, the unworldly faux garden and the blue doors - one musn't forget those blue doors that aren't real either...

... the restaurant is definitely in a mall... no 2 ways about it. I'll agree that once your inside, the mall effect disappears - and yes, that is the majority of your "per se experience." However, for the mall-averse, I can easily see how the mall setting taints the overal feel - from the first impression to the very last when you "walk" out those faux doors...

Edited by ulterior epicure (log)

“Watermelon - it’s a good fruit. You eat, you drink, you wash your face.”

Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

ulteriorepicure.com

My flickr account

ulteriorepicure@gmail.com

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And, and don't forget the shoppers gawking at the front trellis, the unworldly faux garden and the blue doors - one musn't forget those blue doors that aren't real either... 
Most of the time, I've seen no shoppers "gawking" there, though it probably happens sometimes—as it would if Per Se were in a hotel or any other public building. The blue doors have nothing to do with it being in a mall. No one said, "Hmmm...this is in a mall, so we need blue doors that don't open." If the garden really bothers you that much, then we're really speaking a different language.
... the restaurant is definitely in a mall... no 2 ways about it.
If you took a visitor in the back way and didn't tell them otherwise, they wouldn't really be aware they're in a mall (in the usual sense of the word). Now, Café Gray and Landmarc are something different: you cannot reach them without being very aware that it's an upscale shopping mall—not that that should deter any sensible person.
I'll agree that once your inside, the mall effect disappears - and yes, that is the majority of your "per se experience."
How about 99.99%?
However, for the mall-averse, I can easily see how the mall setting taints the overal feel - from the first impression to the very last when you "walk" out those faux doors...

If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it. Edited by oakapple (log)
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If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

This sounds an awful lot like an ad hominem argument to me.

There is a reasonable amount of architectural and design studies writing out there to support the idea that 4 minutes is plenty of time to garner an impression from a landscape, urban exterior, interior, or otherwise.

Edited by Mayur (log)
Mayur Subbarao, aka "Mayur"
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If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

This sounds an awful lot like an ad hominem argument to me.

There is a reasonable amount of architectural and design studies writing out there to support the idea that 4 minutes is plenty of time to garner an impression from a landscape, urban exterior, interior, or otherwise.

I have to agree with Oakapple. Obviously barring extremes, I believe that while, say visiting a amazing restaurant by going down a rabbit hole in Central Park might benefit my overall experience vs. having to acknowledge that an amazing restaurant is in an upscale mall will not increase my overall experience but that unless I'm really a whiny over-sensitive freak that hey I live in New York for christ's sake and I can deal (and have had to with far worse).

Now if you had to get spankings from nude dwarves who were all wearing a mask of your mother on your way in the door, that might be a little more averse (and I'd probably only go once or twice if the food was really great the first time).

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This discussion has taken an interesting twist. Personally, the location in that mall does not bother me. On the other hand, it does not enhance the experience either. The view from the restaurant does, though. That is the exact opposite of TFL, where the setting is marvelous, but the view from most of the restaurant essentially non-existent.

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If that really taints an experience that someone would otherwise have enjoyed, it says more about the person than the restaurant. Now, if you just don't like Per Se, then obviously the location provides one more excuse to avoid it.

This sounds an awful lot like an ad hominem argument to me.
It is not meant to be. I am merely suggesting that it would be irrational—and should not be regarded as credible—if anyone really said that the mall setting affected their enjoyment of Per Se to any significant degree.

What you actually said, was that "the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor." Those are perfectly credible reasons. But if your feelings would have been different by moving Per Se to a different location, I will stand by the statement that it is not credible. (Obviously you have every right to say it, this being a free country & all....)

There is a reasonable amount of architectural and design studies writing out there to support the idea that 4 minutes is plenty of time to garner an impression from a landscape, urban exterior, interior, or otherwise.

Yeah, but the 4 minutes begin when you reach the restaurant. No one says, "I don't like Le Bernardin because of the block that it is on," even though it is a rather dull block, and you need to walk on that block for at least 4 minutes to get to the restaurant.

Well, Per Se's "block" is inside a building, and that building happens to contain a shopping mall, but they've given you a route that, if you choose to use it, bypasses almost all of the commercial activity in that mall. If anyone says that this is a significant (more than 0.1%) drawback of an experience they'd otherwise have enjoyed, I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be credible.

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Well, Per Se's "block" is inside a building, and that building happens to contain a shopping mall, but they've given you a route that, if you choose to use it, bypasses almost all of the commercial activity in that mall. If anyone says that this is a significant (more than 0.1%) drawback of an experience they'd otherwise have enjoyed, I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be credible.

I don't disagree with you, oakapple. I'm not one who is so terribly affected as to be put off by the mall situation of the restaurant. You are certainly correct in stating that 99% of the experience is inside the restaurant, which I find to be one of the more pleasant restaurant settings I've experienced.

That being said, those faux blue doors still bother me... not enough to distract me from the "main event," but something that I can't quite separate from my the rest of my experience. Everytime someone mentions per se, those "doors" are one of the first things to pop into mind - only because they were my first impression/encounter with the restaurant (in person). Sorry, I guess it's a mental block for me that I recognize is certainly an aberration from the "normal" person...

Edited by ulterior epicure (log)

“Watermelon - it’s a good fruit. You eat, you drink, you wash your face.”

Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

ulteriorepicure.com

My flickr account

ulteriorepicure@gmail.com

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It is not meant to be. I am merely suggesting that it would be irrational—and should not be regarded as credible—if anyone really said that the mall setting affected their enjoyment of Per Se to any significant degree.

What you actually said, was that "the food is not my favorite style, since I find Keller's cuisine goes a little too far in the direction of refinement at the expense of pure flavor." Those are perfectly credible reasons. But if your feelings would have been different by moving Per Se to a different location, I will stand by the statement that it is not credible. (Obviously you have every right to say it, this being a free country & all....)

I must disagree... if only based on a comparison with TFL, which I and everyone I personally know who has been to both prefers *as a dining setting* to Per Se.
...the 4 minutes begin when you reach the restaurant. No one says, "I don't like Le Bernardin because of the block that it is on," even though it is a rather dull block, and you need to walk on that block for at least 4 minutes to get to the restaurant.
But the block is an important part of the setting. Check out Bryan Miller's 1986 review of LB, which opens with a discussion of the restaurant's "location in the Equitable Building [which] commands notice." (Incidentally, street location vs. location within a building are two very different things from a design and architecture viewpoint anyway, so I'm not convinced we're not talking apples and oranges anyway.)
Well, Per Se's "block" is inside a building, and that building happens to contain a shopping mall, but they've given you a route that, if you choose to use it, bypasses almost all of the commercial activity in that mall. If anyone says that this is a significant (more than 0.1%) drawback of an experience they'd otherwise have enjoyed, I'm sorry, but I don't consider that to be credible.

First impressions are a very, very big deal. Moreover, the entrance is not so much of a real bypass. Compare, for instance, with Le Grand Vefour or Jules Verne, both of which have less annoying entrances than Per Se.

FWIW, I don't consider this an essential part of my issues with the restaurant, in that I would never specifically not recommend Per Se to someone on the basis that it's in the TWC. Moreover, it has been established that Keller originally wanted a proper street-level entrance that completely separated the restaurant from the rest of the mall, and didn't get it. I will differ with you on your characterization of the current nature of that route (walking into a mall and taking an elevator to the 4th Floor does not constitute "bypass[ing] almost all the commercial activity in that mall" for aesthetic purposes, and incidentally I have encountered wine tastings right in the middle of the hall blocking my way to Per Se's door *twice*), but I agree that it's not all that interesting an element of the place to talk about, in any case. So why don't we move on? :)

Edited by Mayur (log)
Mayur Subbarao, aka "Mayur"
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As to whether Per Se is "worth it": My dislike of the Columbus Circle mall setting probably colors my experience somewhat....

I find this a little difficult to comprehend. You can go in a side entrance, take an elevator, and walk into Per Se. Your exposure to the "mall" lasts a grand total of about 4 minutes; the meal, about 4 hours.

Exactly.

And, and don't forget the shoppers gawking at the front trellis, the unworldly faux garden and the blue doors - one musn't forget those blue doors that aren't real either...

... the restaurant is definitely in a mall... no 2 ways about it. I'll agree that once your inside, the mall effect disappears - and yes, that is the majority of your "per se experience." However, for the mall-averse, I can easily see how the mall setting taints the overal feel - from the first impression to the very last when you "walk" out those faux doors...

i must be missing something with the doors... there is no other way in the restaurant, you walk up to the doors and the glass slides open on either side, what is the problem with that, do you need the actual blue door to open to have a better meal????

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No, but idiots like me try to push and pull the blue doors open as if they were real... thinking the whole time they're on candid camera, or that it's some cruel joke that restuarant closed on the day of my reservation.

I guess I just don't see the point of having fake doors... especially when the sliding glass doors look like floor-to-ceiling windows.

“Watermelon - it’s a good fruit. You eat, you drink, you wash your face.”

Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

ulteriorepicure.com

My flickr account

ulteriorepicure@gmail.com

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  • 2 months later...
9 Course menu is now $275. They're also offering a 5-course lunch Fri-Sun for $110, which honestly seems like a pretty good deal.

http://www.perseny.com/perse/persemenu.htm

If anyone has a reservation and is looking for an additional person to join your party, PM me :rolleyes:

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the deal, which prompted us to make and get an open table reservation for tomorrow, is not quite as good as the website would let you believe.

when we confirmed the reservation today the 5 course was billed at $175, not $110

h. alexander talbot

chef and author

Levittown, PA

ideasinfood

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the deal, which prompted us to make and get an open table reservation for tomorrow, is not quite as good as the website would let you believe.

when we confirmed the reservation today the 5 course was billed at $175, not $110

Did they have anything to say for themselves? The wording on the website says it's for Friday Sat & Sunday.

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I'd be interested to hear their response, too.  I would imagine Keller's website, which undboutedly fields visitors from all over the world, would be accurate.

Historically, the website has been irregularly updated, and I recall past occasions when the prices were wrong. I am sure the $110 was just a typo.
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I'd be interested to hear their response, too.  I would imagine Keller's website, which undboutedly fields visitors from all over the world, would be accurate.

Historically, the website has been irregularly updated, and I recall past occasions when the prices were wrong. I am sure the $110 was just a typo.

If so, that's not an insignificant typo. It's also a rather embarrassing mistake for a restaurant of this caliber to make - and let go without redress for this length of time.

“Watermelon - it’s a good fruit. You eat, you drink, you wash your face.”

Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

ulteriorepicure.com

My flickr account

ulteriorepicure@gmail.com

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I called not too long ago and they quoted $175... and the woman I spoke with said she had no idea that the website quoted a different price. She said she would check with the management.

“Watermelon - it’s a good fruit. You eat, you drink, you wash your face.”

Italian tenor Enrico Caruso (1873-1921)

ulteriorepicure.com

My flickr account

ulteriorepicure@gmail.com

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