Per Se

[Fat Guy]

The current price is $250.

[stetson99]

The current price is $250.

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And don't forget that the bottle of water they paid a $1.50 for is now offered gratis!

Edited September 1, 2007 by stetson99 (log)

[Qwerty]

One thing to keep in mind here, is that the transportation costs for goods has increased significantly over the last couple of years. I can only imagine what the shipping charges on some of the items the restaurant gets in must be--but all the flown in dayboat seafood, mushrooms from the west coast, etc, can't be cheap. They probably pay almost as much in shipping as they do for the actual product, and with gas prices steadily going up and up every year....it's no wonder.

[Pan]

The current price is $250.

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And don't that the bottle of water they paid a $1.50 for is now offered gratis!

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Who paid $1.50 for a bottle of water? Not the restaurant, surely!

[Shmily]

It's $250 now but does include service, which would have brought a $150 bill up to $180. So that's a $70 increase, or 38.9%. That's significant, though still a good value for what you get at Per Se. We'd also have to know if the meal you get today is the same as the one you got for $180 or if it is enhanced somehow -- I'm not sure I know anybody who has dined at Pe Se enough times over time to rule on that with authority.

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This is not "with authority"...just what I "think" I remember...We ate there shortly after their opening...(after they reopened after their fire) and twice after that...most recently in May..I do not believe that the meal is "enhanced"...a few dishes were extra originally and still are, when they are offered. They bring everyone extra courses, and sometimes tell you these are "special" for you..they are not. They did that from the beginning..We have had kitchen tours each time...Chef Keller was there the first time...I still believe that the meal is the best I have ever had in New York City...We have always had wonderful service and attention and I see it as a wonderful treat for our very special occasions.

[Fat Guy]

Cost of product could account for a small portion of the increase, but not a 40% increase. Otherwise every restaurant at the top level would be showing 40% increases, whereas many have barely increased their prices at all over the past decade. I'm not sure Jean Georges and Le Bernardin have even kept pace with inflation, though we'd have to graph it to be sure.

One thing to keep in mind is that restaurants often raise their prices within a year of opening, because they keep their opening prices artificially low in order to attract business. So some of the bump -- probably the bump to $210 -- was inevitable and normal. It just seems large because the base was large to begin with, and therefore a percentage of that base is large as well.

The tipping issue may be relevant here as well. At a restaurant like Per Se, it's quite possible that tips were higher than 20%. Nobody knows for sure -- with all the cash exchanged, and with the lack of any studies at this level of the business, for all we know tips were in the 30% range. I'm also not sure how the service charge system affects wine tips. So in part it may be that the restaurant has to pay its staff more in order to compensate for the lost income from the service charge policy.

I also wouldn't overlook simple supply and demand as possible explanations. I take no offense if Per Se is simply charging what the market will bear. It could just be as simple as that.

All of this has to be viewed against the backdrop of just what you get at Per Se. There's a reason the market is willing to bear such a high price. You can't find this level of experience so easily. You get an amazingly elaborate meal, the restaurant barely seats any people, the quality and quantity of service are astounding, the kitchen is densely populated. I was amazed they could do it for $150 plus tip. I'm probably still amazed they can do it for $250 including tip.

[kai-m]

Since here in germany we are not familiar with that "tipping culture" (or waiters get a decent salary AND 5-10% tip...), I have one question: is this service charge at per se kind of "fixed" from the start, meaning: is it 20 or whatever % of the *menu price* only (as is implied)? And do you have to give extra tip for the beverages-bill then (which would mean that the service charge is not really included, but only a part of it)?

Or do they take the whole check as a base and add the service-%age?

In this case it would be absurd to say that the service charge is included in the 250$-menu-price since it actually is not...

Thanks

Best

kai

[Nathan]

Since here in germany we are not familiar with that "tipping culture" (or waiters get a decent salary AND 5-10% tip...), I have one question: is this service charge at per se kind of "fixed" from the start, meaning: is it 20 or whatever % of the *menu price* only (as is implied)? And do you have to give extra tip for the beverages-bill then (which would mean that the service charge is not really included, but only a part of it)?

Or do they take the whole check as a base and add the service-%age?

In this case it would be absurd to say that the service charge is included in the 250$-menu-price since it actually is not...

Thanks

Best

kai

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neither. it's just a flat $250, including service. what percentage of that $250 actually goes to service salaries is unknown to customers.

the supplementary wine bill also includes service.

[kai-m]

That means the listed price for a bottle of wine or a glass of champagne already includes service?

[ulterior epicure]

That means the listed price for a bottle of wine or a glass of champagne already includes service?

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No, I believe what Nathan was referring to was the wine pairing that comes with the set menu. If you order the wine pairing, as a whole, the service is included in the price of the wine pairing. I think that prices of bottles/glasses separately do not include service.

[Nathan]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

[ulterior epicure]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

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Oh, that very well may be. I was actually uncertain about "a la carte" drinks.

If this is so, then one could conceivably walk out of per se having never to do much math.

[Fat Guy]

what percentage of that $250 actually goes to service salaries is unknown to customers

←

When it was implemented, it was announced as a 20% service charge.

[Nathan]

so...in theory, it's $208.25 for food and the rest is service.

[Fat Guy]

Right. It's also worth noting that, with a service charge, you pay sales tax on the service charge. So you're paying sales tax on the whole $250, as opposed to $208.25 plus a sales-tax-free tip.

[oakapple]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

←

That's right: wine pairings, wines by the glas, wines by the bottle, cocktails, bottled water....everything includes service at an implied 20% rate. You could tip more if you want, but as I recall from my last visit, there wasn't even a tip line when the credit card voucher was presented for signature.

[kretch]

although people usually get wine pairings...I'm told that even the cocktail prices include service with each drink.

(someone please correct this if I'm wrong.)

←

That's right: wine pairings, wines by the glas, wines by the bottle, cocktails, bottled water....everything includes service at an implied 20% rate. You could tip more if you want, but as I recall from my last visit, there wasn't even a tip line when the credit card voucher was presented for signature.

←

6/16/07 there was a tip line marked "additional gratuity" or something similar.

[riboflavinjoe]

After an exciting first day in NYC, we took a quick trip back to the hotel to get ready for our supper, where my new wife changed into a simple and beautiful mauve dress, while I ironed my shirt and got into my suit and tie, and we went for a walk up Broadway past the David Letterman Show studio to Columbus Circle and into the Time Warner Centre, fourth floor, destination: Per Se restaurant.

I remember my wife telling me in our first few encounters that she would never eat brains unless Thomas Keller cooked it for her. Now, we didn’t eat brains that night, but I remember when she told me that a few years ago that here was a woman who had the same interests as me, and maybe there was a potential for something! Well, now we found ourselves at the door of a restaurant we had both dreamed of eating at since we first heard of it, and we were welcomed into their restaurant. The waiter asked us if we wanted something to drink, and I said, “Well, we just got married 27 hours ago, so champagne is in order!” They congratulated us on our wedding, and brought us over our first glass of champagne on that trip.

When they arrived with the menu, they had printed off a special copy for us that included the words “congratulations” at the top. Clearly these people go to great lengths to give the best possible service they can give. We were impressed with their attention to all the details. I guess once we told them we were newly weds, they treated us as VIPs, because the wine and the food just didn’t stop coming. We ordered the chef’s tasting menus and they not only gave us all 9 or 10 courses that were written on menu, but they sent us a number of extra items that were heavenly. A few classics that I had only read about in the French Laundry cookbook, like the Oyster and Pearls, the Salmon Tartare on sesame tuile, and the Truffled Egg with potato-chive chip. We ate foie gras, mine torchon, hers seared. With my torchon of foie gras came a selection of 10 salts from around the world and a warm toasted brioche. They replaced it with a new piece after two minutes to ensure my brioche was still warm while I ate my foie gras. They served us a lovely Kabinett Riesling and then followed up with a Hestan Chardonnay from California that accompanied our Chatham Cod with corn, razor clams and thyme, and the butter poached lobster with fennel chip and noilly prat sauce. The lobster was very good, and everything was appropriately seasoned. Next up, my wife was getting a little overwhelmed with wine, so I had a glass of Pauillac that went with our seared Peking duck with figs and turnips, and the Wagyu beef with matsutakes, bordelaise, crispy marrow, and pommes parisiennes rissoles, while my wife ate her lamb. At this point in the evening, the moon was starting to come up over Central Park, and our waiter came by to point it out to us, saying “we had this specially ordered for you on your special day”, and gave us a good laugh. It was just a little detail that made us feel that much more special. A beautiful Gewurztraminer was with us for our cheese and sorbet, and when it came time for dessert, they brought us not only those that we had ordered, but also the famous “coffee and doughnuts”: semifreddo and housemade fresh doughnuts, which was THEN! followed by a few more complimentary desserts of mini crème brulee and a strawberry pot de crème and short bread cookies and finally mignardises: chocolate truffles and chocolates and chocolate covered almonds and caramels and pistachio nougatines. With our bill (which is most likely the most expensive meal we will ever have in our lives!) came a little bag of perfect macaroons, which we enjoyed the next morning. A quick tour of the kitchen was great, the kitchen was beautifully laid out, and all the cooks in the back looked very busy, so we didn’t want to get in their way, so we left as quickly as we came in. Very clean, very efficient, very impressive.

We left full as we had ever been in our lives, and blissfully wandered back down Broadway to settle in for another solid night’s sleep.

Edit: Photos

Edited September 7, 2007 by riboflavinjoe (log)

[tupac17616]

After an exciting first day in NYC, we took a quick trip back to the hotel to get ready for our supper, where my new wife changed into a simple and beautiful mauve dress, while I ironed my shirt and got into my suit and tie, and we went for a walk up Broadway past the David Letterman Show studio to Columbus Circle and into the Time Warner Centre, fourth floor, destination: Per Se restaurant. 

I remember my wife telling me in our first few encounters that she would never eat brains unless Thomas Keller cooked it for her.  Now, we didn’t eat brains that night, but I remember when she told me that a few years ago that here was a woman who had the same interests as me, and maybe there was a potential for something!  Well, now we found ourselves at the door of a restaurant we had both dreamed of eating at since we first heard of it, and we were welcomed into their restaurant.  The waiter asked us if we wanted something to drink, and I said, “Well, we just got married 27 hours ago, so champagne is in order!”  They congratulated us on our wedding, and brought us over our first glass of champagne on that trip. 

When they arrived with the menu, they had printed off a special copy for us that included the words “congratulations” at the top.  Clearly these people go to great lengths to give the best possible service they can give.  We were impressed with their attention to all the details.  I guess once we told them we were newly weds, they treated us as VIPs, because the wine and the food just didn’t stop coming.  We ordered the chef’s tasting menus and they not only gave us all 9 or 10 courses that were written on menu, but they sent us a number of extra items that were heavenly.  A few classics that I had only read about in the French Laundry cookbook, like the Oyster and Pearls, the Salmon Tartare on sesame tuile, and the Truffled Egg with potato-chive chip.  We ate foie gras, mine torchon, hers seared.  With my torchon of foie gras came a selection of 10 salts from around the world and a warm toasted brioche.  They replaced it with a new piece after two minutes to ensure my brioche was still warm while I ate my foie gras.  They served us a lovely Kabinett Riesling and then followed up with a Hestan Chardonnay from California that accompanied our Chatham Cod with corn, razor clams and thyme, and the butter poached lobster with fennel chip and noilly prat sauce.  The lobster was very good, and everything was appropriately seasoned.  Next up, my wife was getting a little overwhelmed with wine, so I had a glass of Pauillac that went with our seared Peking duck with figs and turnips, and the Wagyu beef with matsutakes, bordelaise, crispy marrow, and pommes parisiennes rissoles, while my wife ate her lamb.  At this point in the evening, the moon was starting to come up over Central Park, and our waiter came by to point it out to us, saying “we had this specially ordered for you on your special day”, and gave us a good laugh.  It was just a little detail that made us feel that much more special.  A beautiful Gewurztraminer was with us for our cheese and sorbet, and when it came time for dessert, they brought us not only those that we had ordered, but also the famous “coffee and doughnuts”: semifreddo and housemade fresh doughnuts, which was THEN! followed by a few more complimentary desserts of mini crème brulee and a strawberry pot de crème and short bread cookies and finally mignardises: chocolate truffles and chocolates and chocolate covered almonds and caramels and pistachio nougatines.  With our bill (which is most likely the most expensive meal we will ever have in our lives!) came a little bag of perfect macaroons, which we enjoyed the next morning.  A quick tour of the kitchen was great, the kitchen was beautifully laid out, and all the cooks in the back looked very busy, so we didn’t want to get in their way, so we left as quickly as we came in.  Very clean, very efficient, very impressive.

We left full as we had ever been in our lives, and blissfully wandered back down Broadway to settle in for another solid night’s sleep.

Edit: Photos

←

Congratulations to you both. Sounds like you enjoyed a wonderful meal. And the foie gras torchon, in particular, is beautiful.

[Shmily]

After an exciting first day in NYC, we took a quick trip back to the hotel to get ready for our supper, where my new wife changed into a simple and beautiful mauve dress, while I ironed my shirt and got into my suit and tie, and we went for a walk up Broadway past the David Letterman Show studio to Columbus Circle and into the Time Warner Centre, fourth floor, destination: Per Se restaurant. 

I remember my wife telling me in our first few encounters that she would never eat brains unless Thomas Keller cooked it for her.  Now, we didn’t eat brains that night, but I remember when she told me that a few years ago that here was a woman who had the same interests as me, and maybe there was a potential for something!  Well, now we found ourselves at the door of a restaurant we had both dreamed of eating at since we first heard of it, and we were welcomed into their restaurant.  The waiter asked us if we wanted something to drink, and I said, “Well, we just got married 27 hours ago, so champagne is in order!”  They congratulated us on our wedding, and brought us over our first glass of champagne on that trip. 

When they arrived with the menu, they had printed off a special copy for us that included the words “congratulations” at the top.  Clearly these people go to great lengths to give the best possible service they can give.  We were impressed with their attention to all the details.  I guess once we told them we were newly weds, they treated us as VIPs, because the wine and the food just didn’t stop coming.  We ordered the chef’s tasting menus and they not only gave us all 9 or 10 courses that were written on menu, but they sent us a number of extra items that were heavenly.  A few classics that I had only read about in the French Laundry cookbook, like the Oyster and Pearls, the Salmon Tartare on sesame tuile, and the Truffled Egg with potato-chive chip.  We ate foie gras, mine torchon, hers seared.  With my torchon of foie gras came a selection of 10 salts from around the world and a warm toasted brioche.  They replaced it with a new piece after two minutes to ensure my brioche was still warm while I ate my foie gras.  They served us a lovely Kabinett Riesling and then followed up with a Hestan Chardonnay from California that accompanied our Chatham Cod with corn, razor clams and thyme, and the butter poached lobster with fennel chip and noilly prat sauce.  The lobster was very good, and everything was appropriately seasoned.  Next up, my wife was getting a little overwhelmed with wine, so I had a glass of Pauillac that went with our seared Peking duck with figs and turnips, and the Wagyu beef with matsutakes, bordelaise, crispy marrow, and pommes parisiennes rissoles, while my wife ate her lamb.  At this point in the evening, the moon was starting to come up over Central Park, and our waiter came by to point it out to us, saying “we had this specially ordered for you on your special day”, and gave us a good laugh.  It was just a little detail that made us feel that much more special.  A beautiful Gewurztraminer was with us for our cheese and sorbet, and when it came time for dessert, they brought us not only those that we had ordered, but also the famous “coffee and doughnuts”: semifreddo and housemade fresh doughnuts, which was THEN! followed by a few more complimentary desserts of mini crème brulee and a strawberry pot de crème and short bread cookies and finally mignardises: chocolate truffles and chocolates and chocolate covered almonds and caramels and pistachio nougatines.  With our bill (which is most likely the most expensive meal we will ever have in our lives!) came a little bag of perfect macaroons, which we enjoyed the next morning.  A quick tour of the kitchen was great, the kitchen was beautifully laid out, and all the cooks in the back looked very busy, so we didn’t want to get in their way, so we left as quickly as we came in.  Very clean, very efficient, very impressive.

We left full as we had ever been in our lives, and blissfully wandered back down Broadway to settle in for another solid night’s sleep.

Edit: Photos

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May I share that if you return, you will be treated the same ...it is just a joy...oour last trip there (our 3rd) was also right after our marriage...we could not think of a more special place to eat...Glad it was so wonderful...

[fendi_pilot]

After holding out and not having eaten at Per Se yet - My question is this : I'm just wondering if anyone has been effected negatively by other diners at Per Se. One of my biggest fears has to be laying down a large amount of cash and not enjoying myself.

While I love to eat out, my love of food and fear of letdown often keeps me in my own kitchen where buying great ingredients and learning to perfect dishes is both easier on my pocketbook and lots of fun.

I have a friend who works in Hedge funds and when I learned that he had been to both Per Se and Masa I was a little shocked. Naively, I think I assumed that temples of gastronomy and a-hole banker types would never marry well. Wrong, but really was I so wrong to keep those seperate ? He hated the experience but this is because he hates his co-workers. I'm currently in the middle of reading the Phoebe Damrosch book Service Included which is basically a memoir of her time at Per Se. In her recounting, she illustrates such nightmarish customer 'requests' that I can't imagine even the nicest of old grandmothers not wanting to pull a complete Marco Pierre White. Soup Nazi time - Your meal is in fact over with and you can leave, right away. (the only one I remember at the moment being - no 'cute' animals, although there were far worse)

Who are these blasphemers that tie up the reservation line ? And does Thomas Keller even care (or can he afford to) ? More importantly, if I make the call, get the res, will they have any chance of effecting me ?

Thanks to all.

Edited October 30, 2007 by fendi_pilot (log)

[ulterior epicure]

After holding out and not having eaten at Per Se yet - My question is this : I'm just wondering if anyone has been effected negatively by other diners at Per Se.  One of my biggest fears has to be laying down a large amount of cash and not enjoying myself. 

While I love to eat out, my love of food and fear of letdown often keeps me in my own kitchen where buying great ingredients and learning to perfect dishes is both easier on my pocketbook and lots of fun. 

I have a friend who works in Hedge funds and when I learned that he had been to both Per Se and Masa I was a little shocked.  Naively, I think I assumed that temples of gastronomy and a-hole banker types would never marry well. Wrong, but really was I so wrong to keep those seperate ? He hated the experience but this is because he hates his co-workers.    I'm currently in the middle of reading the Phoebe Damrosch book Service Included which is basically a memoir of her time at Per Se.  In her recounting, she illustrates such nightmarish customer 'requests'  that I can't imagine even the nicest of old grandmothers not wanting to pull a complete Marco Pierre White.  Soup Nazi time - Your meal is in fact over with and you can leave, right away.  (the only one I remember at the moment being - no 'cute' animals, although there were far worse)

Who are these blasphemers that tie up the reservation line ? And does Thomas Keller even care (or can he afford to) ?  More importantly, if I make the call, get the res, will they have any chance of effecting me ? 

Thanks to all.

←

You bring up an interesting point, although I'm not exactly sure what kind of "negative" influence you are referring to.

If it's matter of having to (over)hear potentially obnoxious diners, I doubt that would be a problem at per se. The tables are so generously separated that I barely noticed any other party in the room during my visit.

On the other hand, if it's a matter of attention, I will say that I experienced no problems at per se (on my one visit). However, a party of 8 at The French Laundry that ordered all the add-ons and appeared to be buying out the wine cellar did seem to suck all the attention away from my (and possibly other) table. Our service there was truly lousy. I need to return to re-evaluate.

[oakapple]

After holding out and not having eaten at Per Se yet - My question is this : I'm just wondering if anyone has been effected negatively by other diners at Per Se.  One of my biggest fears has to be laying down a large amount of cash and not enjoying myself.

No one can guarantee you won't have a let-down at Per Se. The fact is, when you spend upwards of $450–500 per head (that's pretty close to the likely price including tax and alcohol), there's not much margin for error.

That said, the percentage of disappointed diners, in relation to the total number of reviews posted, is amazingly low. There's no restaurant beloved by everybody, but Per Se has an awfully high batting average. I've been there three times. When I and my wallet are ready, I'll go a fourth. Bear in mind that as Per Se serves a long tasting menu, you're not likely to be sent into orbit by every single dish, but the overall quality level is impressive.

While I love to eat out, my love of food and fear of letdown often keeps me in my own kitchen where buying great ingredients and learning to perfect dishes is both easier on my pocketbook and lots of fun.

If you expect perfection everywhere, it's an awfully high burden for the restaurants to bear.

Who are these blasphemers that tie up the reservation line ? And does Thomas Keller even care (or can he afford to)?

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Among luxury restaurants, Per Se has very close to the best, if not the best service in town. If Thomas Keller doesn't care, his staff do a remarkable job of concealing the fact.

[docsconz]

I will echo, U.E. on Per Se. While nothing is impossible, the odds of that happening at Per Se are much, much less than almost all other restaurants because of its size and the table spacing.

[Nathan]

gosh, I hear ya. I rarely get to expense account dinners and I'm not made of money so I seriously contemplate whether it's worth it when I go above the $100 a person or so range...(i.e. if I can eat at Babbo four times for the price of one meal at Per Se....or twice at JG...that's an awfully high bar for Per Se to pass)...on the other hand, so far, when I've thrown caution to the wind, it's been rewarded (haven't been to Per Se though). but yeah, the risk is significant. so could be the reward.

only you can know the right calculus for you.

but yeah, sometimes I wonder where some people are coming from (a conversation a couple weeks ago...me: "well, I haven't been to San Domenico"; him: "well you simply can't purport to rank the best Italian restaurants in NY until you've been there".....my thought process: seriously, I don't have an unlimited budget. I'm not going to spend $300 on a meal at a place which most people I trust say sucks...except for some stodgy elderly types who probably get VIP'd anyway)....with that said, almost everyone seems to really enjoy Per Se...it's probably worth the risk.