Bruni and Beyond: NYC Reviewing (2007)

[ulterior epicure]

Yes, and he gave it ***.

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Here's said review.

[docsconz]

I'm not going to argue this next point at any length, but it's possible to view a reporter's and a critic's responsibilities as being different.  The chef change was duly and unusually extensively reported as news by Fabricant.  I'm not sure the same standards apply to reviews.

Ten years from now, would something like this read strangely to anyone?  "There are and were very few restaurants in NYC with the pedigree and potential importance of ADNY [stolen from John's post].  In 2001, it received **** from the New York Times.  In the following years, the restaurant failed to maintain consistency in both food and service and, two years ago, was demoted to ***.  Changes have been made, including a new executive chef, and the results are. . ."

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This is precisely what I think was called for. Whether or not the same would apply to a middle of the road restaurant is another discussion entirely, but it would or should apply to any other current or recent 4* restaurant and possibly even 3* restaurants.

[docsconz]

Yes, and he gave it ***.

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Here's said review.

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Thanks. That is one of the few other legitimate 4* candidates in or near the City right now.

[oakapple]

[blue Hill at Stone Barns] is one of the few other legitimate 4* candidates in or near the City right now.

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I would be inclined to agree with that. On my most recent visit, I found it even better than my early visits, shortly after it opened.

From a reviewing standpoint, it's a bit of an oddity, as it's the only non-NYC restaurant that has gotten a star rating from Bruni. I cannot think of another comparable example rated by his predecessors.

[Nathan]

You could argue that his pizzeria error was more defensible, because pizza isn't really "his beat." Yet, he considered it important enough to persuade his editors to pay for an out-of-town trip to an L.A. pizzeria, though couldn't be bothered to properly research the places he was ostensibly comparing it to.

I never understood that argument. NY-style pizza is a style all of its own...and Mozza is not in that style. Mozza did not need to be compared to NY pizzerias.

[oakapple]

You could argue that his pizzeria error was more defensible, because pizza isn't really "his beat." Yet, he considered it important enough to persuade his editors to pay for an out-of-town trip to an L.A. pizzeria, though couldn't be bothered to properly research the places he was ostensibly comparing it to.

I never understood that argument. NY-style pizza is a style all of its own...and Mozza is not in that style. Mozza did not need to be compared to NY pizzerias.

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There isn't just one New York style of pizza. Bruni said that Mozza serves "the thin-crust pizza of Naples," and he cited at least one NYC restaurant that (he says) does so too. So apparently he thought the comparison was relevant.

Then again, if you're writing in the NYT about a style of pizza NYC doesn't have, that would be rather important to point out. But he wasn't making that claim.

[slkinsey]

Although this horse has already been flogged, NYC does have pizza roughly in the style category and aesthetic as Mozza. They have it at Franny's, Una Pizza Napoletana, Fornino, Otto, etc. But those places aren't serving "NYC pizza." They are, by and large, serving what one might call "nuova pizza Napoletana."

[Fat Guy]

Bruni mentions Ducasse in his "cult of the chef" blog post, dated 1/24/07.  I think it'd be slightly odd (or rather, poorly and misleadingly written, which is surely possible) if he were personally referring to visits from 2004-05.  One could infer (perhaps incorrectly) from the language that he'd been more recently.

Why would it be misleading? He's not writing about the food or anything that would be affected by a chef change. The information was current. It could have been written based on visits in 2001 and been appropriate and not at all misleading.

In August 2006, another post has him talking to the manager of Ducasse about price-less menus.  So it's not like he's had no contact with the restaurant whatsoever and it'd be a little perverse if this were the only contact ("Hi, it's Frank, I'm not ever showing up, and you're not getting re-reviewed, but do you mind giving me your 2 cents on this fluff piece I'm writing?")

This is standard practice: you call up a bunch of restaurants and ask a question. Anyway, Bruni had already reviewed the restaurant under Delouvrier, so of course he had some contact with the restaurant.

Heck, one could completely and unjustifiably speculate in a manner unworthy of the serious e-gulleteer that in fact Bruni and Ducasse's staff do periodically communicate with each other and perhaps Bruni was asked/told not to bother re-reviewing because the new restaurant was in the works.

That's certainly not a ridiculous speculation. I'm sure that sort of thing happens. However, there are a few issues that make it not all that relevant here. First, if it's true that Delouvrier was replaced by Esnault specifically for the purpose of trying to gain back four stars, it seems unlikely that the restaurant would then turn around and tell Bruni not to review it. Second, it was probably something like a year before there was a concrete decision to close, so again there should have been some "Diner's Journal" action or a visit in that time. Third, also from the department of totally unwarranted speculation, I think it's just as likely that Ducasse and the Essex House would have been willing to keep the place open a little longer if Bruni had been willing to review it -- just as likely as the "perhaps Bruni was asked/told not to bother re-reviewing" scenario is the "Bruni said he wasn't going to re-review" scenario.

On a related point raised by Nathan, it's not correct to say that Ducasse's closing is proof of much beyond the fact that it closed. As I understand it, the decision to close had more to do with union and hotel troubles than with business failure. The restaurant was successful for years but, I believe, when it lost its union exemption it couldn't make the math work. The impending loss of the union exemption was a concern from day one, and I think Ducasse just figured if worse came to worse on that front he'd close and move. Ducasse closed his three-star restaurant in Paris and moved to another hotel. It's just not a big deal for him. Not that the St. Regis restaurant will be the reincarnation of the Essex House restaurant. It remains to be seen whether Ducasse will bother with another Michelin-three-star-type restaurant in New York. If he doesn't, the city's food culture will be poorer for it.

The chef change was duly and unusually extensively reported as news by Fabricant.  I'm not sure the same standards apply to reviews.

The definitions of news for a reporter and a critic are indeed different. For the critic, there has to be some substantive relevance that affects the subject of criticism. And here, there was: the cuisine itself was quite different under Delouvrier and Esnault.

Ten years from now, would something like this read strangely to anyone?  "There are and were very few restaurants in NYC with the pedigree and potential importance of ADNY [stolen from John's post].  In 2001, it received **** from the New York Times.  In the following years, the restaurant failed to maintain consistency in both food and service and, two years ago, was demoted to ***.  Changes have been made, including a new executive chef, and the results are. . ."

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I'm not grasping the point of the exercise. It wouldn't seem strange to me, but what does that mean?

[Nathan]

You could argue that his pizzeria error was more defensible, because pizza isn't really "his beat." Yet, he considered it important enough to persuade his editors to pay for an out-of-town trip to an L.A. pizzeria, though couldn't be bothered to properly research the places he was ostensibly comparing it to.

I never understood that argument. NY-style pizza is a style all of its own...and Mozza is not in that style. Mozza did not need to be compared to NY pizzerias.

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There isn't just one New York style of pizza. Bruni said that Mozza serves "the thin-crust pizza of Naples," and he cited at least one NYC restaurant that (he says) does so too. So apparently he thought the comparison was relevant.

Then again, if you're writing in the NYT about a style of pizza NYC doesn't have, that would be rather important to point out. But he wasn't making that claim.

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of course there's a NY style of pizza! whatever are you talking about? (that NY serves other styles as well is irrelevant)

[Fat Guy]

At a bare minimum there are two New York styles of pizza: the very-thin-crust, brick-oven style, and the puffier, cheesier, foldable style served at most slice shops.

[Fat Guy]

this, of course, is purely anecdotal...yet I think most would report the same.

I know a lot of people who dine well...they might not be foodies...and I might not agree with their preferences (often Aureole and the like)...Per Se was always on their radar....Ducasse?  nope.  too "stuffy", too French.  too expensive (not that they couldn't afford it..but in terms of perceived value).  they knew of it...but didn't think about it.  that's the reality of NY dining.  and the proof is in its closing.

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Needless to say, there were people dining at Ducasse at the Essex House every night. I think it would be revealing to take a sample of Ducasse's customers and a sample of Per Se's customers and compare them by asking a series of questions to determine which group is more knowledgeable about food, better traveled, more experienced at dining out at top-level restaurants in New York, the US, around the world, etc. The results might be surprising to you, Nathan.

[ulterior epicure]

I'm just curious, if ADNY were still open today, which of the four-star restaurants would be the hardest to get a reservation for? I'm assuming it'd between masa, per se, and ADNY.

I'm not sure how many the Essex House location seated, but I believe that masa, being the smallest, would be the hardest reservation to reserve - but the price may also work against it in this respect.

[Fat Guy]

One of the city's only four-star restaurants -- one that many serious observers felt was in a separate category alone with Per Se from all the other four-star restaurants --

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like who? when it comes to the relative rankings of NY 4-star restaurants (as well as restaurants with 4-star aspirations)...there are as many varying opinions as there are critics.

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Even if you look only at objective criteria, Per Se and Ducasse were in their own category. Substantially higher price than Le Bernardin and Jean Georges (and the other restaurants that wander in and out of the four-star French/New American group). Different approach to sitting (1-1.5 turns depending). A different level of extensiveness in terms of everything from serviceware and serving pieces to dessert, water, you name it. The number of people in the kitchen and the staff-to-customer ration were also categorically different. So even without a subjective analysis that says the food was better (which it was), there are still many plainly obvious bases for differentiation.

[Fat Guy]

I'm just curious, if ADNY were still open today, which of the four-star restaurants would be the hardest to get a reservation for?  I'm assuming it'd between masa, per se, and ADNY. 

I'm not sure how many the Essex House location seated, but I believe that masa, being the smallest, would be the hardest reservation to reserve - but the price may also work against it in this respect.

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Per Se. There's no comparison. It's difficult to get Per Se reservations for Tuesday lunch. You can get reservations at all the other places if you plan ahead a little, and often even if you don't.

[ulterior epicure]

I'm just curious, if ADNY were still open today, which of the four-star restaurants would be the hardest to get a reservation for?  I'm assuming it'd between masa, per se, and ADNY. 

I'm not sure how many the Essex House location seated, but I believe that masa, being the smallest, would be the hardest reservation to reserve - but the price may also work against it in this respect.

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Per Se. There's no comparison. It's difficult to get Per Se reservations for Tuesday lunch. You can get reservations at all the other places if you plan ahead a little, and often even if you don't.

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While I certainly had a hard time getting into TFL, per se, was shockingly easy to get into for me (on my one visit). I recognize that it was probably more luck than I had cared to admit at the time.... called up 2 weeks ahead and got a lunch reservation for Friday...

That being said, I have not tried to make reservations at masa, nor did I try when ADNY was open.

[Nathan]

this, of course, is purely anecdotal...yet I think most would report the same.

I know a lot of people who dine well...they might not be foodies...and I might not agree with their preferences (often Aureole and the like)...Per Se was always on their radar....Ducasse?  nope.  too "stuffy", too French.  too expensive (not that they couldn't afford it..but in terms of perceived value).  they knew of it...but didn't think about it.  that's the reality of NY dining.  and the proof is in its closing.

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Needless to say, there were people dining at Ducasse at the Essex House every night. I think it would be revealing to take a sample of Ducasse's customers and a sample of Per Se's customers and compare them by asking a series of questions to determine which group is more knowledgeable about food, better traveled, more experienced at dining out at top-level restaurants in New York, the US, around the world, etc. The results might be surprising to you, Nathan.

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at a guess....the Ducasse diners. (more international travelers and even more affluent than the average Per Se diners)....but if I'm right on that it only goes to my point.

[Nathan]

I'm just curious, if ADNY were still open today, which of the four-star restaurants would be the hardest to get a reservation for?  I'm assuming it'd between masa, per se, and ADNY. 

I'm not sure how many the Essex House location seated, but I believe that masa, being the smallest, would be the hardest reservation to reserve - but the price may also work against it in this respect.

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ADNY was usually relatively easy to get into.

Babbo, for example, was much harder (for reservations).

Edited August 20, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Nathan]

At a bare minimum there are two New York styles of pizza: the very-thin-crust, brick-oven style, and the puffier, cheesier, foldable style served at most slice shops.

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fair enough (I only enjoy the first one). and Mozza, by all descriptions, isn't within either of those.

I see every reason to assume that Bruni is familiar with da Baffeto, Remo and Trianon; and we know that he ate at Pizzeria Bianco...and almost certainly Otto as well. those are the antecedents for Mozza...not the classic NY shops.

[oakapple]

I know a lot of people who dine well...they might not be foodies...and I might not agree with their preferences (often Aureole and the like)...Per Se was always on their radar....Ducasse?  nope.  too "stuffy", too French.  too expensive (not that they couldn't afford it..but in terms of perceived value).  they knew of it...but didn't think about it.  that's the reality of NY dining.  and the proof is in its closing.

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"Proof" is a strong word. Lots of places close, for a multitude of reasons. Ducasse made the error of choosing a location where union issues torpedoed the restaurant. The other four-star establishments don't have that problem.

I do agree that, in relation to the demographic Nathan is familiar with, Per Se has "democratized" the four-star experience, whereas Ducasse has not. But some people subscribe to the view that the NYT food critic ought to be identifying and celebrating excellence, rather than just following the breadcrumb trails left by others.

[oakapple]

At a bare minimum there are two New York styles of pizza: the very-thin-crust, brick-oven style, and the puffier, cheesier, foldable style served at most slice shops.

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Mozza, by all descriptions, isn't within either of those.

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In the article, he compared it to the NY establishment that he considered most closely relevant. Others (whose opinions I trust far more than his) said that he had failed to identify or visit the best NYC example in that category. That's the omission of which he was guilty.

[slkinsey]

Not to flog this too much, but my opinion of pizza has been considered highly enough to be featured in several newspaper articles...

What Bruni wrote was:

And it reflects the spread of a certain kind of haute pizza culture across the country. In growing numbers, serious chefs and bakers are making — and the food cognoscenti are devouring — exemplary pies inspired at least loosely by the thin-crust pizza of Naples.

You can find them in Manhattan at Una Pizza Napoletana, in Chicago at . . .

I don't have any quibble with that. If there are people who made the argument that he should have been more conversant with the likes of Di Fara, Patsy's and Grimaldi's, they're wrong. Those pizzerie are in an entirely different category and not relevant to an article on Mozza or the point he was making. I, personally, might have suggested Franny's or Fornino as better NYC places to put up for comparison, but Una Pizza Napoletana is reasonably-enouth relevant in the context in which it was used in the article. The people who emailed Bruni or posted in blogs things like "You obviously don't get around to all of Manhattan. You want real Napoletana pizza, go to Patsy's on First Avenue between 117th and 118th streets on the west side of the street" -- well, they simply do not understand what Neapolitan pizza is, and as a result are talking out their asses.

Edited August 20, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[whisk]

ADNY on a very bad day (even under Delouvrier) was very much a Michelin 3-star, and at the very least, a NYTimes 4 star. Bruni's understanding of Michelin 3 stars and how special they are (the European ones; I'm thinking Arpege, Pierre Gagnaire, etc.), borders on the criminally incompetent. That he didn't issue a re-review of Esnault's ADNY should have gotten Bruni fired. Let's see what he does with Ducasse's upcoming NY place. But you can bet your behind he'll say something snarky and completely irrelevant, like "Now, Ducasse has decided that the less fussy approach is better, and Adour is better than its over the top predecessor." I bet the man would love to see cafeteria style dining rooms in every restaurant (which is what the Bar Room, even though the food is very good, is).

[Fat Guy]

If there are people who made the argument that he should have been more conversant with the likes of Di Fara, Patsy's and Grimaldi's, they're wrong. 

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To the extent people are saying those pies are modeled after traditional Neapolitan pizza, sure, they're wrong. But if Bruni, the New York Times critic, was going to opine on pizza, he should have familiarized himself with the top few New York places regardless of category. His fundamental lack of knowledge has made him seem out of touch, regardless of the comparability of the styles. And this is one place where it would have been easy for him to acquire the knowledge. He's already lived in Italy. He just needed to visit a few pizzerias and spend twenty bucks at each. It's not like trying to acquire perspective on French haute cuisine, which can take years and tens of thousands of dollars. For a guy who's trying to be a man of the people, he's pretty clueless about the food of the people. He was similarly silly on the subject of hamburgers awhile back.

[Nathan]

If there are people who made the argument that he should have been more conversant with the likes of Di Fara, Patsy's and Grimaldi's, they're wrong. 

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To the extent people are saying those pies are modeled after traditional Neapolitan pizza, sure, they're wrong. But if Bruni, the New York Times critic, was going to opine on pizza, he should have familiarized himself with the top few New York places regardless of category. His fundamental lack of knowledge has made him seem out of touch, regardless of the comparability of the styles. And this is one place where it would have been easy for him to acquire the knowledge. He's already lived in Italy. He just needed to visit a few pizzerias and spend twenty bucks at each. It's not like trying to acquire perspective on French haute cuisine, which can take years and tens of thousands of dollars. For a guy who's trying to be a man of the people, he's pretty clueless about the food of the people. He was similarly silly on the subject of hamburgers awhile back.

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I simply don't get this...as an Italian friend of mine said upon tasting some of NY's finest: "this is very good, but why do you call it pizza?" and it was only half in jest.

the point being...NY-style pizza isn't the same thing as Neopolitan-style. it's like saying that you also have to check out all places serving Alsatian flatbreads. furthermore, he didn't opine on pizza..in general. he wrote an article on a restaurant serving nouveau Neopolitan/semi-Roman pizza. there's every reason to think he's conversant with that category. it's like saying that you have to be an expert on fish and chips to opine on fritto misto...just not so.

[Nathan]

another thought: as far as the NY dining public is concerned...Ducasse never had a chef change. the chef was always Ducasse. it's not like a Danny Meyer restaurant where people understand Meyer is not the chef. the dude ultimately responsible for the menu didn't leave.