London Restaurant Guides - The Best Guide?

[transfattyacid]

restaurant magazine does a good job on keeping you up to date with whats going on. both online and in print.

does Andy Lynes have something to do with this ?

[camp_dick]

Too right!

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Isn't there a contradiction here? You say that Fay's relationship with chefs who come round to cook for her is too cosy; Tseng says she's too hostile (except to her favourites and, presumably, clients of her pal, Elizabeth Crompton Batt).

To clarify, I never said Fay was the most accurate or reliable critic, just the most important.

She does make a point of getting in early because she's in the newspaper business and, therefore, is of the opinion that she should be chiefly concerned with what's new. There are ways of ameliorating this. Many restaurateurs will have a 'soft opening' period during which they charge a discounted price while they're getting their act together and, while Fay may well review the place during that time, she is obliged to mention the special circumstances.

One way of avoiding an early review from Fay is by cosying up to a rival (does she have any?) and getting them to review your place first. Of course this can backfire, if Fay decides to contradict a favourable early review or, more calamitously, ignore it all together.

[Jon Tseng]

She does make a point of getting in early because she's in the newspaper business and, therefore, is of the opinion that she should be chiefly concerned with what's new.

Yes; classic agency problem:

1) WHATS BEST FOR ASSOCIATED NEWSPAPERS: Get in early so you can get the first review up (even if the restaurant isn't bedded in yet) so you can get the jump on your competitors and sell more papers.

or

2) WHATS BEST FOR THE READERS: Take some time. Get a more balanced view. Review something which is more reflective of what 90% of consumers would actually experience. Sell fewer papers.

The only defence of 1) I can see (apart from filthy lucre) is the argument that you can actually tell what a restaurant will ultimately be like from first impressions (or the derivative, that things don't actually change that much through the bedding-in period).

This may be true in cases where a concept is so irredeemable broken there's no chance of fixing it (BLUE BELT), but probably not when there's fine-tuning to be done, IMHO.

ta

J

Edited August 23, 2005 by Jon Tseng (log)

[lou_31]

I'm curious, as a follow-on to another topic about London restaurants, which guide do you like for London restaurants? I am always struggling to come up with somewhere new to go.

Do you find one gives better information than the others?

Which is easier to use?

Which has the best coverage?

[Jon Tseng]

Time Out hands down.

J

[Matthew Grant]

Time out has the best coverage but in recent years it hasn't been as good, I also use Harden's but I don't particularly pay much attention to either of them any more, guides increasingly are at odds with each other with there opinions on certain restaurants so its difficult ot know who to believe. I was mainly paying attention to EG or other food sites but the dearth of current reviews is making that increasingly difficult.

[SBonner]

Time Out is my first choice along with the ocassional review in Waitrose's Food Illustrated.

Cheers,

Stephen

Vancouver

[Ian]

Time out has the best coverage but in recent years it hasn't been as good

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May I ask why it hasn't been so good?

All the best,

--

Ian

[Scott]

I use time out for the wider coverage, but I don't agree that the quality of the judgements are very good.

I mostly rely on Hardens which I find more in tune with my preference.

[silverbrow]

It's also worth trying Square Meal, especially good for central London. I also find other food forums helpful in gauging the wo/man on the street's opinion of any given place.

[Matthew Grant]

Time out has the best coverage but in recent years it hasn't been as good

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May I ask why it hasn't been so good?

All the best,

--

Ian

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It's been missing a few restaurants and the reviews don't seem as knwledgeable or recent. A few years ago I know that it used to be the case that a restaurant only got reviewed if it was recommended by members of the public, however when they visited they weren't shy of saying that something was appalling and giving a generally poor review. Nowadays everythings is either great or fine, nothing gets slated completely which in my mind means that somebody is holding back (either that or I'm too picky when I eat out. The star system is awful as well now. Read few reviews without stars and then read a few with, they just don't stand up to comparison, lots of the non-starred retaurants get far better reviews

[Helenandchips]

I only use Time Out as a guide for which restaurants are in the area I'm heading, and then cross-reference the reviews (usually with Fay Maschler, if possible). Whoever said that all the critques were too nice-nice was totally true. Unfortunately, most restaurants aren't all that, and the TO guide doesn't acknowledge this. And I've visited some places - such as Le Mercury in Islington - which were bigged up in Time Out despite having sub-mediocre food and terrible, rushed service.

[kind]

I personally wouldn't trust too much reviews read on PRINTED guides. It cost money to print an restaurants I presume will have to pay for it. Therefore, if they pay, the review must be positive whatever.

I would read reviews on indipendent restaurants guide. ie BettaTable where general public may post reviews

[Matthew Grant]

Hardens is driven by reviews from Joe Public and I think its safe to say that restaurants don't pay to go in the Timeout food guide.

As for BettaTable, you are having a laugh right? To say that this is more independent than some of the written guides is a joke. It's incredibly slow and despite clicking on the "Featured Restaurants" link I'm only able to find a review of two of the six featured restaurants? How can a restaurant be "Featured" without a review? It seems to me that this is an advertsiing portal for restaurants and attractions in London. Besides, this is exactly what EG should/used to be, an independent restaurant review site, why write on a board that is driven by advertising? Are you are in some way related to the website?

Edited February 22, 2006 by Matthew Grant (log)

[Jon Tseng]

I personally wouldn't trust too much reviews read on PRINTED guides. It cost money to print an restaurants I presume will have to pay for it. Therefore, if they pay, the review must be positive whatever.

I would read reviews on indipendent restaurants guide. ie BettaTable where general public may post reviews

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No that's incorrect; most of the major guides pay their own way - TO certainly does although it does take advertising (ironically the restaurants which advertise all seem to get crap reviews...)

Maybe its me being suspicious, but do you have any connection with the BettaLondon website you aren't disclosing?

a) It just seems a random recommendation to make given there are far more established peer review websites you could have mentioned (squaremeal and london-eating spring to mind - with only 55 reviews listed BL seems to lag quite far behind)

b) given BL lists exclusive offers at various restaurants surely they have a commercial relationship which taints their supposed "indipendence"

c) I couldn't help notice your only other eG post so far has been to recommend Trattoria del Ando in Soho... which also happens to be listed as one of the "hot" special offers on the front page of BettaLondon. Coincidence???

As I said probably me just being a suspicious bastard...

ta

J

EDIT: Just cross-posted with Matt. Two suspicious bastards on the same thread at the same time... would you think of that!

Edited February 22, 2006 by Jon Tseng (log)

[Basildog]

as said, all the mentioned guides do not charge the restaurants, ,nor do the AA ,but the AA do try and sell you a photo next to your entry.

[kind]

I am sorry if I have created suspicions, but I must say that:

The web site has just been launched (Jan 06) as a Restaurant Guide and a friend of mine helps in the development of it.

The trattoria Da Aldo is owned by an Italian that has been there for the last 30 years (The only real Italian in Soho).I eat there often and as far I know don’t pay for the listing. it is in the listing just because it is a Real Tipical Italian Trattoria that you don't find anymore in Soho (London)

I also must add that I personally dont trust written guide too much, but others don't have to do the same.

To avoid suspicions, may I should have said I read BettaTable London eating London eat

Edited February 22, 2006 by kind (log)

[Ste]

I definitely agree with Matthew re. Time Out. Time Out also fails to update addresses - I have seen in the past details of shops which I knew for sure had closed down.

I find Zagat very reliable, and I've been using it for many years, ever since it was first published in the US (I was living in NYC and there you surely NEED a guide ! ) . Zagat is supported by its readers' contributions - e.g. if you participate in their survey and give your comments about the restaurants you've been in the last year, you get a free copy. sounds good to me...

[LuisMiguel]

I definitely agree with Matthew re. Time Out.  Time Out also fails to update addresses - I have seen in the past details of shops which I knew for sure had closed down. 

I find Zagat very reliable, and I've been using it for many years, ever since it was first published in the US (I was living in NYC and there you surely NEED a guide !  ) .  Zagat is supported by its readers' contributions - e.g. if you participate in their survey and give your comments about the restaurants you've been in the last year, you get a free copy.    sounds good to me...

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Hi all,

This is my first post on here. I personally find Hardens the best guide. I love the quick no-nonsense description of the place and the ratings also tend to tie in very much with what I think of a place.

It's probably better as a quick reference also...

[Punjuna]

I definitely agree with Matthew re. Time Out.  Time Out also fails to update addresses - I have seen in the past details of shops which I knew for sure had closed down. 

I find Zagat very reliable, and I've been using it for many years, ever since it was first published in the US (I was living in NYC and there you surely NEED a guide !   ) .  Zagat is supported by its readers' contributions - e.g. if you participate in their survey and give your comments about the restaurants you've been in the last year, you get a free copy.     sounds good to me...

←

Hi all,

This is my first post on here. I personally find Hardens the best guide. I love the quick no-nonsense description of the place and the ratings also tend to tie in very much with what I think of a place.

It's probably better as a quick reference also...

←

[Punjuna]

I definitely agree with Matthew re. Time Out.  Time Out also fails to update addresses - I have seen in the past details of shops which I knew for sure had closed down. 

I find Zagat very reliable, and I've been using it for many years, ever since it was first published in the US (I was living in NYC and there you surely NEED a guide !   ) .  Zagat is supported by its readers' contributions - e.g. if you participate in their survey and give your comments about the restaurants you've been in the last year, you get a free copy.     sounds good to me...

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Hi all,

This is my first post on here. I personally find Hardens the best guide. I love the quick no-nonsense description of the place and the ratings also tend to tie in very much with what I think of a place.

Sorry did not add my reply but I find Hardens to be the most rediculous guide due to the fact that obviously most people that make contributions to its compilation have not got a clue and should stick to their day jobs. Leave it to the proffessionals AA, michelin or to some extent GFG. Or as mentioned before check egullet and other internet sites.

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[Jon Tseng]

On a philosophical level my disagreement with Zagat UK (and I will sound a bit of a snob here) is simply the mass of public opinion isn't always right, particularly in UK where eating out culture still lags behind US and France.

Put simply the people aren't always right. That's why McDonalds is the world's largest restaurant chain.

Zagat is useful for general view, but in the specifics some of its recs can be quite bizarre - e.g. its top-ten lists at the start of the guide always throw up some fairly random and/or populist suggestions. Gordon Ramsay joints always do well - but is it becos hes good or becos hes always on telly so hes perceived as being good.

On an unrelated (and possible contradictory) point I think that the Zagat guide's populist and democratic credientials are at best overblown and at worst disingenuous. There is a significant amount editorial selection in the quotes and I've never seen the math around the ratings adequetely explains - basically how they reach their conclusions is as opaque as a brick wall on a dark night.

regards

Jonathan

[Matthew Grant]

Couldn't the same aregument be applied to Harden's as well? All the reviews are made up of quotes from the general public. I find some of the ratings very hard to understand. Does anybody know what the "style" rating is, how it is marked etc.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Matthew Grant (log)

[Scott]

London-eating can occassionallybe worthwhile, but you have to take some of what is written with a grain of salt. Like the neighbourhood italian, which is the best food in all of london etc. but as vox populi, it has some merit.

Mind you, they seem to have censored a perfectly reasonable review of the greyhound of mine, and have not answered emails about it so they're not in my good books at the moment...

[kind]

Something I don't like in websites, it is when they start censoring reviews (not offensive). Then if they don't answer to requests or some sort of question, even worth.

Edited February 23, 2006 by kind (log)