Tipping Outside of Restaurants

[fiftydollars]

if the 19% service charge didn't end up going to the waitstaff.

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I was told that at the FL the tips are pooled and are used to provide and supplement benefits for all the employees. Although I generally don’t like pooling, I believe this is more than appropriate given the type of service provided at the FL. It is definitely a team effort. I am also glad that some of the tip money is making it to the BOH where the real work and service actually takes place.

[jeroen_kb]

I've been reading about the different tipping systems around the world for a while now and the one thing that puzzles me the most about the American system is that (to me that is) it is illogical:

I enter a restaurant order the 10 dollar chicken, get good service leave a 2 dollar tip

I enter the same restaurant, order the 40 dollar caviar, get the same good service from the same waiter, leave a 8 dollar tip?

Why ? Just because the food is more expensive ?

[NulloModo]

I am sorry that the word 'vulgar' has been taken literally and that all of you have to grapple with the import of my usage.

It is quite simple. It is not 'power in the diner's hands'. I simply do not grasp this logic. At an extreme, this is blackmail. Especially in snobbish eateries where one is a repeat customer.

If the decision is made for me, please show it in the bill. I do not want to take the effort to mull over whether the service deserved 1/5th of the total cost of a meal. If I disagree, I wont come back. Showing it on the bill reflects how the establishment expresses its confidence in the performance of its service staff. I see weird bits like "20% service charge on Mondays and Saturdays". What does it mean? Why is it so? I dont know. I dont care. If the food is good, I wont care if its a Monday or a Sunday.

If I pay a lousy tip and choose to exercise my 'power', I am merely displaying my pettiness. The restaurant is challenging me to bring out my pettiness. That simply isnt classy, man. It is an illusion that this is power to the diner.

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Under the current tipping system, I am in complete control over how much I leave in the form of a tip. If this were changed to a mandatory service charge, or just rolled into the price of the entree, I could no longer adjust my tip to reflect the quality of my service, how is this not a loss of power in the hands of the diner?

I suppose we are just looking at it differently. I personally find nothing displeasurable about thinking about what my server's time and effort was worth at the end of the meal. After being provided with a service from someone, I understand that it is my duty to restitute them for it, and mulling a bit over how much that should be is in no way an unpleasant task.

[Tess]

I've been reading about the different tipping systems around the world for a while now and the one thing that puzzles me the most about the American system is that (to me that is) it is illogical:

I enter a restaurant order the 10 dollar chicken, get good service leave a 2 dollar tip

I enter the same restaurant, order the 40 dollar caviar, get the same good service from the same waiter, leave a 8 dollar tip?

Why ? Just because the food is more expensive ?

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I agree about this part and usually adjust the tip on a low bill upwards, although it still doesn't seem fair.

On the other hand, I don't find it onerous calculating a 20% tip.

I don't know, maybe in an ideal world I would abolish tipping and pay people a straightforward wage. But the way things are now, I can see the logic of tipping people who perform personal services, whether it's a food server or a manicurist or the guy who looks after my dog in the kennel. These people's skill is directly related to my well-being, and filling out the tip personally serves as a recognition of that. Sure, you could throw in something extra if service is included, but I find that awkward. In situations where a tip is not strictly called for but seems appropriate, I often feel a little weird about giving money and worry that the person feels like they're being insulted.

[Jaymes]

I've been reading about the different tipping systems around the world for a while now and the one thing that puzzles me the most about the American system is that (to me that is) it is illogical:

I enter a restaurant order the 10 dollar chicken, get good service leave a 2 dollar tip

I enter the same restaurant, order the 40 dollar caviar, get the same good service from the same waiter, leave a 8 dollar tip?

Why ? Just because the food is more expensive ?

You're absolutely right of course. It IS illogical.

That's just how I feel trying to make a Eurostar reservation in Italy. But when I'm in Italy, I try very hard to learn their rules and then play by them. It's not always easy, you know.

The thing that gets me in this thread is how many non-Americans here are saying that they think it's okay to stiff our waiters in the US because our system isn't how they do it 'back home.'

[jackal10]

I don't think that is what we are saying.

I think we are saying that we (at least I) would prefer an more honest system where the advertised price included the "expected" tip. That way handing over cash to the server is reserved for truly exceptional personal service, and we are not being asked to support the cheapskate practices of the restaurant in not paying its staff or evading tax.

[Jaymes]

I don't think that is what we are saying.

I think we are saying that we (at least I) would prefer an more honest system where the advertised price included the "expected" tip. That way handing over cash to the server is reserved for truly exceptional personal service, and we are not being asked to support the cheapskate practices of the restaurant in not paying its staff or evading tax.

Me, too. But until that perfect system becomes the norm, I don't think it's fair to cause the waitstaff to bear the financial burden and hardship of your opinion.

Your actions certainly aren't hurting the owner.

Seems to me that your lofty principles would be better served by avoiding the restaurants in the US entirely. What you've chosen to do is to avail yourself of the service, but then penalize the most vulnerable person, rather than the one in charge, who could make those changes if he/she desired.

[Stigand]

Me, too.  But until that perfect system becomes the norm, I don't think it's fair to cause the waitstaff to bear the financial burden and hardship of your opinion.

Your actions certainly aren't hurting the owner. 

Seems to me that your lofty principles would be better served by avoiding the restaurants in the US entirely.  What you've chosen to do is to avail yourself of the service, but then penalize the most vulnerable person, rather than the one in charge, who could make those changes if he/she desired.

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Jaymes: I think us Europeans are violently agreeing with you.

As far as I can see, there are three positions one can take on this subject:

1. Tipping is a great system that incentivises the waiter/tress, empowers the customer, and makes the system work better

2. Tipping is a useless system that provides few additional incentives and makes some people feel awkward, BUT since it's the system in use, we'll pay our tips and lump it.

3. Tipping is a useless system that provides few additional incentives and makes some people feel awkward, so we'll stiff US waitstaff.

I think the people who've posted against tipping are choosing option 2, NOT option 3 - which as you point out is pretty ethically suspect.

[=Mark]

I don't understand. You tip after the meal don't you, not before?Assuming that you have not invented time travel or its not Groundhog day, unless you are a frequent diner the amount you tip can't have any effect on the quality of service.

The cash is wasted, except in a very general sense of setting the  average for that establishment...

My contention is that tipping, or intending to tip more or less has no effect on the quality of service...

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Assuming you are only going to dine at this establishment once.

[Jaymes]

Jaymes: I think us Europeans are violently agreeing with you.

Oh. Well, then nevermind.

[Hest88]

I like the tipping set-up just the way it is. It is an incentive for waitstaff to perform their job well.

Coming in late, but what makes it especially untrue is how *guilty* we can feel if we leave even a "measly" 10% tip. Tipping is built into the system to such a degree now that it's considered an entitlement and not an incentive. Honestly, I'm one of those who would rather waiters be paid a living wage so I, as a customer, can reward whom I feel really deserved a tip.

[Busboy]

I've been reading about the different tipping systems around the world for a while now and the one thing that puzzles me the most about the American system is that (to me that is) it is illogical:

I enter a restaurant order the 10 dollar chicken, get good service leave a 2 dollar tip

I enter the same restaurant, order the 40 dollar caviar, get the same good service from the same waiter, leave a 8 dollar tip?

Why ? Just because the food is more expensive ?

You're absolutely right of course. It IS illogical.

That's just how I feel trying to make a Eurostar reservation in Italy. But when I'm in Italy, I try very hard to learn their rules and then play by them. It's not always easy, you know.

The thing that gets me in this thread is how many non-Americans here are saying that they think it's okay to stiff our waiters in the US because our system isn't how they do it 'back home.'

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On the contrary, it's generally quite logical. Though, there are exceptions, such as the one you pointed out, generally more expensive restaurants have more better and more knowledgable servers whose skills command greater compensation. In addition, they work fewer tables a night. Just as the food at a fine restaurant is more expenseive because its better and more personal, so the service is more expensive, for the same reasons.

To deny that tipping has any effect on service is to deny the theoretical constructs of the capitalist system. No, a tip delivered after your meal won't affect your service that meal. But since waiters, like most humans, act out of self-interest to maximize profits, two things happen.

First, good waiters make it a point to learn behaviors that maximize tips. Some, like signing your check with a smiley face, are annoying. Others, like mastering the wine list, learning how to run several tables simultaneaously so that each feels well served, or learning to tell when a diner needs their attention without barging into a conversation, are important. You think waiters don't count their tips at the end of the night and wish they had more, and work on how to get more? Or take pride in their service, using good tips as badges of honor?

And, second, waiters who do poorly drift into other lines of work. If tips are consistently disappointing, you're going to look for work that pays better. You don't see this much at entry-level places, but by the time you move up a bit, economic attrition is beginning to show, the people left are making more money, and they generally give better service.

In fact, over the long-term, tipping is a spectacularly effective behavior modification process.

Edited February 4, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[TheFoodTutor]

I just came back from lunch, terrible service and somewhat rude as well. I didn't get the side item ordered with my entree, asked for it and had it delivered somewhat later. Charged for 2 items I didn't get, given a snotty response when I asked to have charges removed, plus the overall service was slow.

Now, because I am a server as well, I know exactly why she gave me such crappy service. Observing the room, I could tell that she easily had a 10-table station or larger, which is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Why did she have a 10-table section? Surely they know that they're going to get popped at lunch, and it's very easy to predict a full restaurant shortly after noon on most weekdays.

But I'm guessing that, like most places, it's hard to get servers to work lunch shifts, since lunches tend to be lower tickets, lower tickets mean lower tips and who wants to bother with that? So the manager or owner asks 2 of his servers if they'll work lunch and split the entire restaurant, and they quickly agree to do it, because with such huge sections, they're bound to make lots more money and the lunch shift won't be such a waste of time. Even if most people get really crappy service, the majority will not outright stiff the server and some, seeing how overwhelmed she was will even leave good tips.

I've seen this scenario a million times, and it's an excellent example of the tipping system leading to worse service, rather than better.

[Busboy]

I just came back from lunch, terrible service and somewhat rude as well.  I didn't get the side item ordered with my entree, asked for it and had it delivered somewhat later. Charged for 2 items I didn't get, given a snotty response when I asked to have charges removed, plus the overall service was slow.

Now, because I am a server as well, I know exactly why she gave me such crappy service. Observing the room, I could tell that she easily had a 10-table station or larger, which is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Why did she have a 10-table section? Surely they know that they're going to get popped at lunch, and it's very easy to predict a full restaurant shortly after noon on most weekdays.

But I'm guessing that, like most places, it's hard to get servers to work lunch shifts, since lunches tend to be lower tickets, lower tickets mean lower tips and who wants to bother with that? So the manager or owner asks 2 of his servers if they'll work lunch and split the entire restaurant, and they quickly agree to do it, because with such huge sections, they're bound to make lots more money and the lunch shift won't be such a waste of time. Even if most people get really crappy service, the majority will not outright stiff the server and some, seeing how overwhelmed she was will even leave good tips.

I've seen this scenario a million times, and it's an excellent example of the tipping system leading to worse service, rather than better.

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My experience with lunch shifts is kind of the other side of the coin: management doesn't want a bunch of waiters on the clock, low though their wages are, because the amount of time when they're not making money for the house vs the time they are making money is much higher.

I never had a manager who gave much of a damn about my tips, or one who asked me if I wanted a shift or would dream of negotiating the conditions under which I would take it with me. Lunch shifts were the price you paid to work more lucrative evening shifts.

Also, tips aside, management tends to put their best servers on the best shifts, so those cruddy luncheon shifts tend to skew towards the less experienced and less competent folks who aren't up to handling a big Friday night.

[chefzadi]

You got it. It's actually less than that in most cases. Or even just plain FREE. The Grande Ecoles are more expensive, but they are a very special category of schools (these types of schools require two years of study just to pass the entrance exams)

Anyway, I gave the example to support Jaymes argument that economic needs are different in different countries. The college student/waiter in the States has higher tuition costs than the French college student/waiter in France. What works in one country is not necessarily going to work in another.

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how much can a student(full time/part time) make as a waiter in france? approx?

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I don't know how much. I've never worked as a waiter in France. Housing in Paris can be quite expensive, especially the closer you are to the center. My wife and I have done the math on the cost of education for our kids in the States and in France. Given that both our children can qualify for scholarships (even if they don't the tuition costs are negligable) it makes more sense for us to send them to University over there even in Paris.

As you know tips are included in the bill automatically in France. Over there it would be nearly impossible for the owners to pocket any of the tip money if it is indeed tip money and not a "service charge". The French government is quite strict about auditing paperwork for purposes of collecting taxes.

Is there a French waiter in France in the egullet house who could help with this one?

In Korea I'm sure that my FOH didn't report all the tip money I gave them on their tax returns. Because over there the gov't doesn't expect this type of wage.

[TheFoodTutor]

My experience with lunch shifts is kind of the other side of the coin: management doesn't want a bunch of waiters on the clock, low though their wages are, because the amount of time when they're not making money for the house vs the time they are making money is much higher. 

I've been working in restaurants for a long time, and before I was a server, I managed restaurants for most of that time. In my experience, I did see a few managers who would watch labor costs as they apply to $2.13 an hour employees, but most of these managers either don't make it in the restaurant world because they're too short-sighted, or they simply learn to get over this point of view after a few months.

I never had a manager who gave much of a damn about my tips, or one who asked me if I wanted a shift or would dream of negotiating the conditions under which I would take it with me.  Lunch shifts were the price you paid to work more lucrative evening shifts. 

Managers don't care much about tips, certainly, but managers in this city care a heck of a lot about having enough people to cover shifts. Finding enough servers to cover your floor is difficult in virtually every restaurant in this town, and it's a constant struggle. I have not only been asked to pick up shifts, but I've been literally begged to do so, even when I'm already into overtime, and often managers throw in a comped meal for me as well. I don't mind picking up lunch shifts, but that's because I'm fortunate enough to work somewhere where lunch pays about the same as dinner.

Also, tips aside, management tends to put their best servers on the best shifts, so those cruddy luncheon shifts tend to skew towards the less experienced and less competent folks who aren't up to handling a big Friday night.

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Again, doesn't happen in this town. If you're a good server, maybe you should think of moving here. I get a $200 bonus if I convince you to work in one of the restaurants where I work.

[Busboy]

My experience with lunch shifts is kind of the other side of the coin: management doesn't want a bunch of waiters on the clock, low though their wages are, because the amount of time when they're not making money for the house vs the time they are making money is much higher. 

I've been working in restaurants for a long time, and before I was a server, I managed restaurants for most of that time. In my experience, I did see a few managers who would watch labor costs as they apply to $2.13 an hour employees, but most of these managers either don't make it in the restaurant world because they're too short-sighted, or they simply learn to get over this point of view after a few months.

I never had a manager who gave much of a damn about my tips, or one who asked me if I wanted a shift or would dream of negotiating the conditions under which I would take it with me.  Lunch shifts were the price you paid to work more lucrative evening shifts. 

Managers don't care much about tips, certainly, but managers in this city care a heck of a lot about having enough people to cover shifts. Finding enough servers to cover your floor is difficult in virtually every restaurant in this town, and it's a constant struggle. I have not only been asked to pick up shifts, but I've been literally begged to do so, even when I'm already into overtime, and often managers throw in a comped meal for me as well. I don't mind picking up lunch shifts, but that's because I'm fortunate enough to work somewhere where lunch pays about the same as dinner.

Also, tips aside, management tends to put their best servers on the best shifts, so those cruddy luncheon shifts tend to skew towards the less experienced and less competent folks who aren't up to handling a big Friday night.

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Again, doesn't happen in this town. If you're a good server, maybe you should think of moving here. I get a $200 bonus if I convince you to work in one of the restaurants where I work.

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Maybe things are improving. I am not longer in the business, but it does appear -- just from the help wanteds I see posted on so many cash registers and front doors -- that the the market has shifted somewhat in favor of workers vs. management. If so, I'm glad.

Also, all the places I worked at were relatively small and owner-managed, I wonder if they tend to feel overhead costs, like waiter's wages, more acutely.

[easternsun]

in japan, we pay no tips. nothing. and the service is phenomenal! much better than any other country i have lived in/visited.

my problem is that when i leave japan to go home (canada) or travel to other countries, i totally forget that i am supposed to tip!

it is acceptable here to buy a drink for the staff to show appreciation for good service but a tip is not expected nor would it be accepted. i think the only exception to this rule, is international hotels, which include a gratuity in the bill.

i am glad i dont have to worry about this

[FaustianBargain]

The thing that gets me in this thread is how many non-Americans here are saying that they think it's okay to stiff our waiters in the US because our system isn't how they do it 'back home.'

Hmm. Who said that and where?

edited to add: never mind. much has been discussed after the initial comment. kindly ignore this post.

Edited February 5, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[Marylisa L.]

Wait staff aren't as badly paid as I thought. I know teachers, nurses and other vital professions that pay less.

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[Marylisa L.]

Honestly, I'm one of those who would rather waiters be paid a living wage so I, as a customer, can reward whom I feel really deserved a tip.

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So, you would be comfortable, across the board if prices increased 20%.... at your fave restaurant, your hairstylist, car wash, anywhere you might consider dropping a tip? Keep in mind, I'm only using 20% as a figure b/c it is a norm in my restaurant.... 18% is low. So, a $7 sandwich all of a sudden becomes a $8.40 sandwich + tax-- bringing it over $9.. And then do we, as owners and chefs, put a disclaimer on the menu 1. saying that you are paying more because we are paying higher wages and you don't have to tip? 2. that we are taking away you ability to recognize the service you were given by another individual?

Do I get to put one of those on the menu when my gas bill goes up too? Or my mixer breaks and it costs a grand to fix it? Customers don't give a hoot about your overhead. I have a hard time believing that America, on a whole,would be cool with an overall increase in prices at restuarants, etc. Gas prices go up 1 cent/gallon and there's a national crisis...

[Marylisa L.]

Totally unrelated...but I'm new here and have NO idea how to get a quoted item in that nifty little box and my text to appear under it....help?

[Stigand]

So, you would be comfortable, across the board if prices increased 20%.... at your fave restaurant, your hairstylist, car wash, anywhere you might consider dropping a tip? Keep in mind, I'm only using 20% as a figure b/c it is a norm in my restaurant.... 18% is low. So, a $7 sandwich all of a sudden becomes a $8.40 sandwich + tax-- bringing it over $9.

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But service charge or no service charge, the sandwich cost me as a customer $9 anyway - just because the tax and tip isn't on the menu doesn't mean it somehow doesn't exist.

On the other hand, I do sympathise with your position as an owner - you don't want to be the only person on the block apparently increasing your prices, for fear of customers getting sticker shock. I guess a lot depends on whether you can communicate to customers that your prices include service. Here in the UK, where some restaurants include service and some don't, people are pretty familiar with the concept. If you're operating in an area where everyone else employs a tip system and the customers expect it, it'll be a much harder sell.

[*Deborah*]

An American server, say working in a high volume, fine dining restaurant in Los Angeles could earn a year's tuition for the University of Paris in a week just from tips.

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Lets see. Maybe not a week, but in a year...

Tuition fees (American University in Paris) are about EU20,000, say $25K.

Double that for living, even at student rates, say 50K. Bit more since the earned income will be taxed, but then there is also some wages from the restaurant.

That is about $150/day everyday.

If that represents 15% of the bill, that means the bill must be about $1000

Say 10 covers at $100 each - looks possible.

Wait staff aren't as badly paid as I thought. I know teachers, nurses and other vital professions that pay less.

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If a waiter is working in a fine dining establishment and selling $1000 worth of food and beverage, especially in LA, that means he's on a team of possibly 3 people selling that much, so that take will be split 3 ways, plus there will be other people to tip out. The math is not that simple.

I left fine dining because I make more money at a lower level. I don't work on a team, but individually, and when I sell $500 I've worked a pretty good shift. If I sell $1000, I've worked a pretty long shift, and possibly a double shift, and I tip out 2% of my sales, whether I get tipped on those sales or not.

And I've noticed that the closer I get to $1000 in sales on a shift, the lower my average tip is because at that volume, I'm probably working an Amateur Night like a Friday or Saturday. More amateurs means more 10% tippers, or even lower, and of course the more volume you do, the lower the standards of your service.

There really is no free lunch. And if you live in a city with really high end restaurants and very good tipping habits, chances are you're paying at least $1500 a month for a small apartment.

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Are Canadians better tippers? 20 years ago, I knew a girl who worked at a FD place in Montréal, and she would routinely walk out of there with $500 in her wallet. I certainly never made that much on a shift, but I never worked at a place that high-end: $300 was a bad night for her.

Maybe it was just the "Go-Go Eighties" or something.

[Yuki]

Wait, are we saying that we are tipping waiters and waitress because they give us good servics and without those extra moeny, they can not survive with those below standard wages. But from what I know in Alberta, Canada, waiters and waitresses' minimum wages are the same as any kids starting out in the job market(I think $5.90 is the minimum wage). Many kids are earning around $7.00 to $10.00 per hour and they are still putting themselve through Universities. Do they really need that 20% of the bill to make a living? I thought the reason why so many teenagers try to become waiter and waitress is because the cash can come in really fast if you are friendly and good looking.