Tipping Outside of Restaurants

[Jinmyo]

Can I just mention that I wrote a song about the service at Starbucks?

http://www.mamster.net/ratcm/audio/barista.mp3

Thanks.  I accept tips.

/me drops change in open guitar case, avoids eye contact, walks quickly past

[jaybee]

that's a strange barometer. the whole seated thing. the kids at the starbucks (well, actually it's that other place whose name escapes me) see me in line and prepare my drink before i even get up to order. they save me some time and frustration, so the 20 cents is a "thank you" for being human and having some common sense.

Before you get up to order? You're seated in line? Where is this, Retirement Village in Ft, Lauderdale?

What about McDonald's?, the Post Office?, "full service" gas stations? Flight attendants, sandwich makers at the deli counter? Drive through clerks? Why one and not the other. What's the criteria?

Have a nice day.

[nightscotsman]

Here in Washington state, I believe that waiters are not paid the $2.xx pittance. Instead they get at the very least minimum wage...and customers are still expected to dole out 15-20% for service.

Quite a racket.

Ever tried to raise a family on minimum wage - even with tips, which are taxed whether you receive them or not?

I think tipping is barbaric - the service should be included in the bill and waitstaff should be paid a decent wage. If the service is above and beyond the call of duty then a tip would be an *optional* discretionary reward. Why should a good portion of a person's livelihood depend on the whims of a disinterested customer? One of the wonderful things about traveling in Japan is that there is no tipping for anything - restaurants, hotel, or taxis. If you actually tried to tip, the service person would be embarrassed or even offended. Of course Japan does have that whole "gifting culture" thing, but that's another discussion.

[tommy]

Before you get up to order?  You're seated in line?  Where is this, Retirement Village in Ft, Lauderdale?

What about McDonald's?, the Post Office?, "full service" gas stations? Flight attendants, sandwich makers at the deli counter?  Drive through clerks?  Why one and not the other.  What's the criteria?

Have a nice day.      

seated? no, not at starbucks.

McDonalds: i've never received exceptional service, and don't expect that i will.

post office: see above.

"full service" gas stations: i often tip my local guy, especially if i receive good service.

flight attendants: i think the airlines frown upon that. plus, they probably make more money than i do.

sandwich makers at the deli counter: yup. i often tip if i receive good service.

drive through clerks: i rarely deal with drive-through clerks of any sort.

to answer your question, my criteria is "exceptional service". of course, i could define this, but i think you are smart enough to come up with a reasonable definition that is probably in line with mine. and, of course, my definition could be completely different than yours.

thanks.

[Schielke]

Here in Washington state, I believe that waiters are not paid the $2.xx pittance. Instead they get at the very least minimum wage...and customers are still expected to dole out 15-20% for service.

Quite a racket.

Ever tried to raise a family on minimum wage - even with tips, which are taxed whether you receive them or not?

I think tipping is barbaric - the service should be included in the bill and waitstaff should be paid a decent wage. If the service is above and beyond the call of duty then a tip would be an *optional* discretionary reward. Why should a good portion of a person's livelihood depend on the whims of a disinterested customer? One of the wonderful things about traveling in Japan is that there is no tipping for anything - restaurants, hotel, or taxis. If you actually tried to tip, the service person would be embarrassed or even offended. Of course Japan does have that whole "gifting culture" thing, but that's another discussion.

I agree with you about including a decent wage for employees into the bill. Service would improve, and server/patron relations would improve.

I do disagree though, with raising a family on min wage. Being a waiter is not the only job in the world and if you decide to try to raise a family as a waiter, you should try to be a damn good one. Top notch waiters can make a pretty good living.

There are plenty of other minimum wage workers out there that are working hard to raise a family on that small amount of money without tips. I think most waiters are better off than them.

As a patron, I should not have to worry about supplementing the income of all the employees. I think that an adequate solution is including the cost of service in the menu pricing.

Tricky subject though.

Ben

[glenn]

[yawn]snore[/yawn]

[Besha]

As my friend Jason (One of the best waiters I've met) once put it to a customer "The way tipping works in America, if you don't tip me, I in effect pay to serve you...and while it's been a pleasure, I'm not sure I want to pay to do it".

In Europe and Australia, no one is expected to tip more than 10%, and the waiters there make around $20 an hour. In those CRAZY socialist countries, they probably have free healthcare, free education, and god knows what else. Here, the government assumes that a waiter is making 15% of their sales, and taxes accordingly, more than eating up the $2 an hour waiters make. Does anyone know how hard it is to keep a restaurant running, financially? If restaurants had to pay their waiters a living wage, it would be impossible for new restaurants to get past that hump that's hard enough as it is.

In a recent trip to Australia, where the waiters don't have to rely on tips to pay rent, the service sucked everywhere I went. At least here, when the service sucks, I have a way to show my disappointment. When the service is fantastic, I leave 30%. And I'm just a lowly waitress.

[polly]

Oh how I wish Australia was a CRAZY socialist country. And how the waiters here wish they earned $20 dollars an hour.

A few things in reply to besha's post:

In Australia tipping is not set at 10%, it goes from 10% upwards. There is leeway in how much you decide to tip, depending on where you are and how good the service was.

If Jason ( or any other waiter) ends up in a situation where they lose money by working, do you not think this is a crap situation?

It shouldn't be up to the customers to make his wage, thats the employers job.

I enjoy tipping someone who has made my evening extra enjoyable.

I don't believe that earning really low wages and having to hustle all the tips you can get is really going to make someone serve me better.

How are they going to feel about their jobs and themselves when they are paid shit and rent money relies on the whims of a customer?

Yes it is very expensive to open and run a restaurant but that is actually no reason to pay someone badly.

It's very expensive to run a hospital too...

And finally, I am sorry you had bad service in Australia. It could be a difference in expectation ( I have found American service is often more kiss-arse than Australian), or maybe you had bad luck- bad service exists everywhere.

I find your last point a bit odd though.

In a recent trip to Australia, where the waiters don't have to rely on tips to pay rent, the service sucked everywhere I went. At least here, when the service sucks, I have a way to show my disappointment.

What? through tipping? or not tipping?

Either way, that form of expression is open to you in many countries. Not just America.

[Marlene]

It's annoying when a tip is added to your bill in advance, i.e. room service in hotel, or in a restaurant with groups over six. Since they have already added the tip, does the server then worry about offering good service which is what tipping is all about isn't it?

And what about the new concept of tipping at an all-inclusive resort? Yes, I know, these people make like six bucks a day maybe, but it kinda takes the meaning out of all-inclusive doesn't it?

[Stone]

Why do people assume that if there was not tipping, or if tips were automatically entered into the bill, the service would get worse? There's no tipping for most service jobs, and the service is what it is. I assume that if people got crappy service at a restaurant, they wouldn't go back, and the owners would hire better waiters.

[lxt]

Bribery is payment as an agreed pre-condition to delivery of a service

Not always. Traditionally, for many countries that don’t follow free market economic practices, bribery is a matter of expressing one’s gratitude in a form of gifts or money post facto. It is totally voluntary but is considered to be an illegal act by the authorities. The main difference between bribery and tipping is the legitimacy factor.

Tipping in reality is an evaluation technique the only purpose of which is to provide an incentive for better service and is not much different from other incentives widely utilized by many companies in the form of bonuses, for instance.

But where I disagree with him is concluding that all bribery is corrupt.

Steve, despite the perfect rationale of your argument, unless you refuse to accept rules as a measure of our wrongdoing, bribery is corrupt simply because it is not encouraged by our law. But even without arguing about the morality of the act itself, bribes tend to distort the free market system as those who participate in bribery take away an opportunity from someone willing or required to play by the rules.

AHR, who is unencumbered by a complete reading of the thread, asks me to add that buying tickets from a scalper, or especially hiring some one to wait in line for you -- or tipping a waiter for good service -- is in no way bribery in the same sense as giving money to a purchasing manager to buy your overpriced, inferior product over a competitor’s. The nature of the transaction, and the nature and magnitude of the harm, is manifestly different. Also, is ticket scalping (save for an allowed $5? 5%? profit) even illegal anywhere in the U.S. besides the People’s Republic of New York City?

[Fat Guy]

It is extremely difficult to make an argument that ticket scalping should be illegal. Rarely has anybody tried to justify it based on anything other than sentiment.

As for those who attack tipping on the basis that waiters don't like it: Nonsense. Waiters in the United States are an entrenched interest in favor of the tipping system. I doubt you could find a statistically significant percentage of waiters in favor of ending the tipping system. The tipping system is the reason most people become waiters in the first place. It is virtually impossible to imagine that they would make as much money under a wage scheme.

The current system of tipping as salary in United States restaurants is completely stupid, but it is overwhelmingly supported by 1) waiters; 2) restaurateurs; and 3) the public. How are you going to fight that?

I don't understand John's argument that a tip is inherently a bribe. Merriam-Webster gives as the primary definition of bribe: "money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust." Tipping simply does not conform to that definition. Scalping and waiting-on-line-by-proxy are also completely unrelated -- they have nothing at all to do with tipping or bribery.

[polly]

Tipping in reality is an evaluation technique the only purpose of which is to provide an incentive for better service and is not much different from other incentives widely utilized by many companies in the form of bonuses, for instance.

If this example was correct, the employers would be tipping their staff for good service

[tommy]

Tipping in reality is an evaluation technique the only purpose of which is to provide an incentive for better service and is not much different from other incentives widely utilized by many companies in the form of bonuses, for instance.

If this example was correct, the employers would be tipping their staff for good service

why? it's clearly stated here that it's "not much different". so yes, it *is* different. so if you want to make the argument that the difference is the that the customer gives the "bonus" instead of the employer, then it's a completely reasonable example.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Lxt - I believe my response was in response to brother Whiting's definition of bribery. In that *all additional payments* for sevices rendered above the stated price were the equivelent of a bribe. My response was to point out that many additional payments, such as tipping, the vig on scalped tickets etc., were the result of someone stymieing the free market system, so an aftermarket is created by those who find themselves in possession of the goods or services. And I was making the point that additional payments like ticket scalping and tipping are not in the same category as a bribe for a defense contract. But if we use Whiting's definition they are.

[Fat Guy]

The thing is, tips are not bonuses. They are neither used as bonuses by customers nor considered bonuses by waiters. They are a combination of payroll-avoidance by restaurants, the illusion of power for customers, and institutionalized tax evasion. It is only in the recent past that the federal government has gotten serious about holding waiters to the same level of accountability as regular wage earners. This will be the first step towards the end of the gratuity system.

What is a bonus? There are really two categories of bonuses: Whimsical and logical. I think it's great if a company wants to give bonuses to its employees, but those bonuses should be proper and rational incentives. So, for example, if a bonus is given to the salesman who sells the most of a company's product, or multiple bonuses are given on a sliding scale based on sales achievement, this is a good thing. I'm not sure why it's categorized as a bonus -- it's just part of the rational scheme of compensation -- but we can use the word I suppose. It's also sensible to let employees share in the riches they help to generate through a profit-sharing bonus. I'm still not sure how that's really a bonus, but no matter. Then there are bonuses that are essentially gifts, given out by management to employees they "like." Here I think the concept of the bonus and the concept of the tip overlap; they are both gratuities in that context.

As I have written in the past:

My political orientation tends towards the libertarian, and I therefore favor free-market solutions in most every instance. At the same time, above all political and theoretical considerations (though not above moral ones), I'm a realist, and my experience over the course of thousands of restaurant meals leads me to conclude that tipping is one area where the intuitive economic theory does not coincide with reality.

Typically, the practice of tipping is defended as an incentive: "Waiters know that they won't get paid if they don't do a good job," is the way most advocates of the tipping system would put it. To be sure, this is a seductively rational statement about economic theory, but it appears to have little applicability to the real world of restaurants.

For one thing, the American public tends not to apply tips in an economically rational manner. In every survey I've seen, American diners have admitted en masse to tipping a flat amount no matter what and rarely departing upwards or downwards except in the most extraordinary circumstances. Waiters have, likewise, overwhelmingly testified that good service barely increases the chances of getting a better tip, and that mediocre service barely reduces those chances. I can assure you, based on my own observations, this is the case. And of course, because so many customers are weak willed, aggressive hustling for tips is often rewarded while low-key, quality service often goes unrecognized. In addition, the practice of tip pooling, which is the norm in almost every restaurant in America above the level of a greasy spoon, has completely gutted whatever effect the procedure of voting with your tip might have had on an individual waiter. In a perverse, Maoist outcome, you are actually punishing the good waiters in the restaurant by not tipping the bad one. (With present employment laws, of course, getting rid of a bad waiter is more difficult than it should be.) Finally, it is a sad reality that American customers often behave unethically with regard to tipping. Many are simply cheap -- they take advantage because they know there is no enforcement mechanism requiring them to tip well for good service. Others are clueless and don't understand, for example, that a cooking error has nothing to do with the waiter and that the cooks are pretty much never part of the tip pool (as you might imagine, cooks intentionally screw up the orders of the waiters they hate because they know a waiter is far more likely to be punished for unsatisfactory food than for any other reason). Still more are simply evil and this is the one unchecked expression of raw power they have in their pathetic little lives. And don't get me started on the international tourists and their tipping practices.

For another thing, as an empirical matter, there appears to be little causal relationship between the existence of tipping and good service. The absolute best service in the Western world is at the Michelin three-star restaurants of Europe, where there is no tipping. This is because the waiters at the best restaurants of France are professionals, trained in professional service academies and driven by the same desire for excellence that makes any professional do a job well despite the absence of tipping. The top restaurants in America, where there is tipping, come in a distant second when compared to their Michelin-starred rivals. The rest of the restaurants in Europe and America are a mixed bag -- I've experienced extremes of service at restaurants in every country I've visited. The only country where I've never had bad service is Singapore. Despite an aggressive market economy, though, there is no tipping in Singapore. British service tends towards the abominable, to be sure, but I think the primary explanation for that is a limited gastronomic tradition in that country. In most of Canada, where there is tipping, service is almost as bad as in the United Kingdom.

As a customer, it's certainly pleasant to dine in France where the menu prices typically represent actual totals, including the price of food, all taxes and service.

Moreover, I'm not sure how the practice of tipping earned itself a capitalist pedigree while the practice of including a service charge in the bill became associated with the anti-free-market contingent. Is it not tipping -- a gift, essentially -- that is more at odds with accepted business models? When the tipping model is used, the customer decides after the fact how much to pay for service and is not bound by any sort of contractual obligation to pay in accordance with the quality of service or even to pay at all. (I should mention that servers, except in union shops, are essentially unpaid save for their tips. The tip is not a thank you over and above the server's wage. It is the server's entire income.) This seems to me a bizarre practice -- after-the-fact pricing and wages -- that wouldn't be tolerated in most areas of human endeavor.

A service charge model, however, seems to parallel the retail model used in virtually every consumer transaction: A price is set; the consumer decides whether or not to buy the item or utilize the service based on that price. If the customer is dissatisfied, he need not provide repeat business. He can complain to the management, and management can take whatever steps it can to warn, discipline or terminate a problem employee. But the customer must pay for consumables consumed and services rendered.

[tommy]

nice passage fat guy.

i tip 20% pretty much all of the tip because the math is nice and easy. it pains me to see people pull out calculators, to either save themselves a dollar thirty or to punish the sever by the same amount.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - You left one out. Tips, or bonuses, are also a way to incentivize people. Whether that works well or not, or is approriate or not is a different issue. But I remember when I was a salesman and partially worked on a commission system. The ability to make more money, and the ability to be the highest ranked salesman motivated me in a way that a stright salary probably wouldn't have given that environment.

[tommy]

plots, i think his third paragraph pretty much covers that issue.

[glenn]

Would someone please render an executive summary of FG's post? Alright, putting my reading glasses on, I've been battling the following line of thinking ever since we've implemented pooling in our restaurant a month ago.

FG sez...

"In addition, the practice of tip pooling, which is the norm in almost every restaurant in America above the level of a greasy spoon, has completely gutted whatever effect the procedure of voting with your tip might have had on an individual waiter. In a perverse, Maoist outcome, you are actually punishing the good waiters in the restaurant by not tipping the bad one. "

Survival of the fittest beats that commie theory. Those waiters who don't pull their weight are weeded out one way or the other, either by disgruntled coworkers or unhappy management. This is already happening where I work.

[polly]

Tipping in reality is an evaluation technique the only purpose of which is to provide an incentive for better service and is not much different from other incentives widely utilized by many companies in the form of bonuses, for instance.

If this example was correct, the employers would be tipping their staff for good service

why? it's clearly stated here that it's "not much different". so yes, it *is* different. so if you want to make the argument that the difference is the that the customer gives the "bonus" instead of the employer, then it's a completely reasonable example.

Yep, Fair enough.

And seeing as I was being pedantic in the first place, I'd better go with your closer reading of the text.

[Stone]

Is this really the first time we've discussed the general concept of tipping at restaurants? I assumed it had been done before, and only expected a rant against tip jars popping up all over.

Intersting stuff though.

Do people who think that tipping is a good idea at restaurants because it incents better service think that tipping should spread to other areas? We already tip barbers/hairdressers. Shoe-shine folks. How about the dry cleaner that hands you your clothes? How's about the person at the Gap following you around to refold the stuff you pull off the shelf? How about the guy at the record store who recommends a good album? How about the mechanic who just charged you an obscene amount of money for ten minutes work?

[Fat Guy]

Those waiters who don't pull their weight are weeded out one way or the other, either by disgruntled coworkers or unhappy management.

Management is supposed to weed out bad employees anyway; that's management's job.

[Stone]

Those waiters who don't pull their weight are weeded out one way or the other, either by disgruntled coworkers or unhappy management.

Management is supposed to weed out bad employees anyway; that's management's job.

Fascist.

Poor workers are first entitled to adequate notice, warning, and time to cure. Then they need proper job training in order to raise their abilities to an acceptable level. If, after appropriate job training, they are still unable to meet the minimum standards, they are obviously "differently abled" and a new position must be found or created to take advantage of the inherent skills that are present within each of us.

Weed them out indeed. People are not crabgrass.

(I'm tired.)

[Besha]

Believe it or not, there are many bad waiters out therewho are not "differently abled", they are lazy, and in many cases, lazy rich kids who don't have to be good waiters because their daddy's paying their rent for them.

People have said here that they'd prefer the waiter's salary be made up in the price of the bill, and yet people get so offended when a gratuity is added for them. Isn't this the same thing?

As for people always tipping the same, and waiters always giving the same service, in any tip pooling house there are a few waiters who always bring in more money than anyone else. Good waiters make more money.