Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Prime Rib Roast


Jmahl

Recommended Posts

It is not realistic to expect to be able to buy Prime beef in the US at almost any price. Somebody, somewhere (fine restaurants and beef billionaires I suppose) in the US has cornered the market and it is just incredibly scarce. What is sold as prime is often top of choice, and is very good. What is in the typical grocery store is select, but Whole Foods and such places carry Choice. Breed specific beef is becoming the thing lately, once again at a premium.

Prime beef is available at any number of butchers in San Francisco, New York, and most other major cities. It's also available mail order from dozens of different sources. Lobel's in NY is the only mail order butcher I've used, they're extremely expensive but the quality is excellent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not realistic to expect to be able to buy Prime beef in the US at almost any price. Somebody, somewhere (fine restaurants and beef billionaires I suppose) in the US has cornered the market and it is just incredibly scarce. What is sold as prime is often top of choice, and is very good. What is in the typical grocery store is select, but Whole Foods and such places carry Choice. Breed specific beef is becoming the thing lately, once again at a premium.

Prime beef is available at any number of butchers in San Francisco, New York, and most other major cities. It's also available mail order from dozens of different sources. Lobel's in NY is the only mail order butcher I've used, they're extremely expensive but the quality is excellent.

I was under the impression (from my beef purveyor) that all beef was inspected by the USDA in order to differentiate choice or prime. The top 3% is prime, then you have your diffrent "levels" of choice and so on. I would hate to think that someone was getting choice for prime. Especially when you're paying that much of a price on the retail end!

Executive Chef

The Villa

Alpharetta, Georgia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not realistic to expect to be able to buy Prime beef in the US at almost any price. Somebody, somewhere (fine restaurants and beef billionaires I suppose) in the US has cornered the market and it is just incredibly scarce. What is sold as prime is often top of choice, and is very good. What is in the typical grocery store is select, but Whole Foods and such places carry Choice. Breed specific beef is becoming the thing lately, once again at a premium.

Prime beef is available at any number of butchers in San Francisco, New York, and most other major cities. It's also available mail order from dozens of different sources. Lobel's in NY is the only mail order butcher I've used, they're extremely expensive but the quality is excellent.

I was under the impression (from my beef purveyor) that all beef was inspected by the USDA in order to differentiate choice or prime. The top 3% is prime, then you have your diffrent "levels" of choice and so on. I would hate to think that someone was getting choice for prime. Especially when you're paying that much of a price on the retail end!

I was told by people in the industry to never pay prime unless I was allowed to see the stamp on the primal. It does hover around 3% of beef slaughtered, which explains its scarcity and price. A little over half makes choice or better, 40% or so makes select, and the rest is pretty much dog food. There are grades within the grades as well.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/mgc/Reports/BeefHistory2005.pdf

Pretty graph I stole and used in my technical proposal here:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/mgc/charts/beef/beefprime.gif

You would be surprised at the amount of ungraded beef out there as well. There is no law that says you have to grade beef before you sell it. Now it does have to be inspected, but it does not have to be graded, and the slaughterhouses absorb that expense in operating cost. Quite a bit of cheap beef out there is ungraded, and believe it or not quite a bit of expensive beef out there is ungraded as well.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Inspe...ading/index.asp

Select has almost taken over the supermarkets because it is a "leaner" beef, and can be marketed as such like that is a good thing.

I was also lectured (these guys were a lot of fun to work with, and their technical knowledge was amazing, but it is sort of like talking to engineers) that the grading system seriously ignores several factors that have an effect on tenderness and flavor, including breed-feed-cut-storage-age of the cow etc. A large part of the gene pool in our beef is brahma. Big cows, but not very tasty. Prime beef is slaughtered so young it is almost veal. There's a big push in the industry to revamp the USDA grading system.

The USDA also does a yield grade (how much beef can be expected from the carcass) but that just means there is a third stamp on some primals.

Edit to add: It pays to know your USDA stamps, found on the last link above.

Edited by annecros (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is also he difference between cow and bull meat. Over here in the UK its almost all bullock - castrated bull, and by law must be slaughtered below 30 months

Absolutely. Castrated bulls are called steer in the states and they provide the bulk of the high grade beef. As annecros mentioned earlier, grading is optional - producers like Niman rely on their brand name to sell their product rather than having the carcases graded. There is no doubt in my mind that the beef Lobel's sells as prime is indeed from a prime graded carcas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many hotels and and steak houses that regularly serve prime rib cook theirs using Alto Sham ovens. My experience with them has been very low temp for a very long time. We would load them up (2 ovens) with 6-8 rib roasts each  for @ 12 hours.  Also used them for the steamship rounds.

Yea, when I first read this post, my first thoughts were the Sham method. I forget exactly how we used to do it, but if I think it was cook at 200F for 4 hours and hold at 140, something like that. But the Alto Sham is one of the best inventions in the modern day kitchen. Great for doing suckling pigs too (You just have to use your imagination getting them in there, lol)...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is all US beef just beef? Here (at least in the better butchers) you can choose which breed, length of aging, and they will tell you the feed, age, provenance and history of the animal. THis is partly because of the better record keeping following the BSE scare

Local Dexter, grass fed killed at 30 months and aged for 4 weeks for me.

I've commented on this before in a similar thread - Here the breed, animal husbandry and aging are the key factors - marbling doesn't really come into what is considered 'top quality' meat, maybe it's the lack of a steak house culture. Is it also the feed? I've never seen cuts in the UK with the level of marbling I've seen in some of these meat porn shots. I don't really know - not really a beef guy.

Out of interest, is the Prime grading done cut by cut? And do only 'prime' cuts get this grading?

I love animals.

They are delicious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is all US beef just beef? Here (at least in the better butchers) you can choose which breed, length of aging, and they will tell you the feed, age, provenance and history of the animal. THis is partly because of the better record keeping following the BSE scare

Local Dexter, grass fed killed at 30 months and aged for 4 weeks for me.

I've commented on this before in a similar thread - Here the breed, animal husbandry and aging are the key factors - marbling doesn't really come into what is considered 'top quality' meat, maybe it's the lack of a steak house culture. Is it also the feed? I've never seen cuts in the UK with the level of marbling I've seen in some of these meat porn shots. I don't really know - not really a beef guy.

Out of interest, is the Prime grading done cut by cut? And do only 'prime' cuts get this grading?

The grading is done on the carcass, and each of the primals is "rolled" or stamped. The grading process takes into account several inspection points on each animal.

Another interesting point, all the packers refer to it as "harvesting" rather than slaughtering. Grading is done at the harvesting point, after the cow has been skinned and gutted.

Oh, and grass fed beef is leaner than grain fed (usually corn) beef. Now, there is room within "grain fed" for several different formulations. Grain fed tastes better to me, but is brutal for the animal and entirely unnatural. I think tere is a thread here somewhere on the book "A Carnivores Delimma" that discusses the situation in great deatail. The majority of beef in the US is grain fed. Even if it is started on grass, it is generally "fed off" at the end of its life on a grain preparation of some sort.

Edited by annecros (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone needs to step and do a whole standing rib roast SV.  Blast it in like a 550 oven to brown it at the end.  My baths aren't big enough and my vacuum bags aren't big enough to hold something of that size..

Here are some comments.

In all cases you want to bring the core temperature to somewhere between 120F/49C and 130F/54.4C (your personal choice), ideally holding it there for a while (up to 24 hours) to allow the collagen to break down.

I am usually a fan of searing last, but with roast beef you are better off searing first. The reason is food safety - low temp cooking for a long time can allow bacteria to grow. Any bacterial or viral contamination will be on the exterior of the roast. So searing enormously reduces or eliminates food saftey risk.

Either the outside in a hot pan with oil on the stove, or in the oven at 500F/260C but not for too long. Let it cool until you can handle it, then do one of the following.

Roast beef works very well sous vide, but you need a large vacuum packer. It might be possible in a edge seal machine like Foodsaver, depending on the size of the roast. Put the seared roast in the bag, seal it (with some aromatics like pepper if you would like).

To cook it sous vide, use low temp - 130F/54.4C or even 125F/52C. It will take a LONG time, like overnight, but that is part of the point.

In a combi-oven there are two approaches. The simple one is to use the low-temp or overnight roasting program - most combi ovens have one. This will sear the outside at 500F, then cool down the chamber and steam at 130F or so until the interior is at whatever temp you want, then it will hold it at that temp for up to 24 hours.

Or, do the same thing manually - sear first, take the roast out and cool down the oven. Put it in steam mode at 130F/54.4C and steam away until the core hits the desired temp. You can then turn the temp down to the desired temp and hold it there.

In a conventional oven this is a bit more complicated. Many home and even professional ovens will not hold a low temperature very well. So first experiment you should do is calibrate your oven - use a digital thermometer with a remote probe and see how low your oven can go and remain more or less steady. Don't pay much attention to the setting on the oven dial, which is apt to be inaccurate - instead adjust the oven as low as it will go and see what temperature it is.

The second complication is that an uncovered roast will undergo evaporative cooling - basically, as the roast sits in dry hot air, moisture will evaporate from the surface . This will keep the surface of the roast COOLER than the oven temperature. It's the same reason that sweat cools you down.

So, you usually need to have oven temp up to 150F in order to get the surface temp to be 130F. You can check this with a digital thermometer. Then roast at that temperature.

This also drys out the meat. Its not too bad, but would be better to avoid it.

A better way to do is what I call "near sous vide". Put the seared roast into a roasting bag, and seal it. Roasting bags can take the heat, and the twist tie seals reasonably well - not as well as sous vide vacuum packer, but good enough for a roast. Sealing the bag around the roast keeps the evaporation down. In that case you can avoid the evaporation. That way you can cook at 130F or below directly (assuming your oven can go that low).

An alternative to a low oven is to put the roast in the roasting bag, and put it in a crock pot or slow cooker on low. Once again you need to operate it for a while and test with a digital thermometer to see what the temperature really is. Most slow cookers on low will be 150F/66C to 160F/71C, but it varies a lot.

Put a couple inches of water in the bottom of the pan, and keep the twist tie end of the bag out of the water. Put the cover to keep the heat in. Once again, cook monitoring the core temperature with a digital thermometer.

Nathan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, someone brought up the difference between "jus" and "au jus" so bear with me! I am one of those (apparent) idiots who actually really enjoys the jus served with the prime rib at restaurants, so how can I make it at home. I'm of the "low and slow" camp and love doing a rib at home but there just isn't enough jus to share. I've looked up recipes that suggest low sodium beef broth but....ewww. How do restaurants do it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, someone brought up the difference between "jus" and "au jus" so bear with me!  I am one of those (apparent) idiots who actually really enjoys the jus served with the prime rib at restaurants, so how can I make it at home.  I'm of  the "low and slow" camp and love doing a rib at home but there just isn't enough jus to share.  I've looked up recipes that suggest low sodium beef broth but....ewww.  How do restaurants do it?

There is always the French's packet! And if you are an idiot for loving "jus", there are at least two of us here.

:biggrin:

Seriously though, I have some brisket trimmings and I think an oxtail or two in the freezer I am going to put in a low oven to boost my "jus" output. I'm doing yorkshire pudding as well, so I require lots and lots and lots of fat.

Edited by annecros (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So.... in conclusion, if using a convection oven for cooking prime rib, there is no need to sear... just baste, correct? I've developed a great rub over the years so I believe that is all I will need.... plus a few pieces of injected garlic. Sound good?

With the caveat that the cooking time should be a bare minimum of 2 hours (if it's a small roast - and you cook for less time - you'll need to sear). Robyn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, someone brought up the difference between "jus" and "au jus" so bear with me!  I am one of those (apparent) idiots who actually really enjoys the jus served with the prime rib at restaurants, so how can I make it at home.  I'm of  the "low and slow" camp and love doing a rib at home but there just isn't enough jus to share.  I've looked up recipes that suggest low sodium beef broth but....ewww.  How do restaurants do it?

I make a simple "jus" as follows. Pour most (but not all) of the fat out of the roasting pan. Deglaze with some red wine I like. Add some Williams Sonoma beef broth in a box (it happens to be relatively low salt - but it also tastes ok - no really "off tastes") and a few sprigs of thyme. Boil up a little. That's it. Note that I also rub some garlic on the roast which winds up in the pan - so I'd fry up some garlic in the fat first if there wasn't any on my roast. Robyn

P.S. I tried the Williams Sonoma turkey broth in a box to baste some turkey legs for Thanksgiving and thought that broth was pretty good too.

Edited by robyn (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As my kitchen is slowly coming back to life, my new wall oven got hooked up today. One of the settings on it is "Pure Convection/Sear". This is the same as convection except apparently, it will start the oven at 75 degrees hotter than the temperature you've set, for 15 minutes to "sear" the outside. I may have to buy a smaller roast just to try this feature. :biggrin: (this setting will be handy for those of us approaching those "forgettful" years in which we turn something on and forget about it.) :biggrin:

Marlene

Practice. Do it over. Get it right.

Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Help!

Last night we cooked a rib eye roast - kind of fun!  But it is a little too rare as leftovers.    What will happen if I put it back into the oven for a short bit?    Should I even attempt this or just microwave the slices  or  what ... someone please help.

I usually thin cut the roast - and I have never found a way to reheat it where it doesn't look and taste like "yuck". Usually just eat it raw - warmed to room temp with a bit of jus to heat it up. Think next time I'll simply slice what's left over into something that's as thick as a steak - so I can sear it and wind up with something warm and edible. Robyn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried the Williams Sonoma turkey broth in a box to baste some turkey legs for Thanksgiving and thought that broth was pretty good too.

Although I do tend to make my own stocks, I rarely make turkey stock because I rarely use it. I've used the WS turkey stock as well as their demi glaces, and I've been happy with both. I just got my hands on some demi glace gold though, so I'm looking forward to trying that out.

Marlene

Practice. Do it over. Get it right.

Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've found the sear at the start only to be pretty ineffective. The reason is that when you put the beef in the oven, the outside is still relatively moist so the bulk of your heat goes towards evaporating moisture and not browning the beef. I've worked out a compromise where I start the oven at around 350F or so. After about 5 minutes in the overn, I drop the oven temp down to 140F and the residual heat will sterilise the outside without overcooking any of the meat. Luckily, I (had) an over that could keep rock steady at low temps so I could leave the meat unattended for the 7 or so hours it would take to stabilise in temperature.

After the meat hits my desired temp for about an hour (remember, theres no overshoot in LTLT), I take it out and let it rest (oddly enough, you still need to rest for LTLT, I don't know why) and crank the oven up to 500F (This is a good time to roast some potatos to go with the beef since you can't do it at 150F). Once the oven is blazing hot, I throw the beef back in for another 20 minutes.

Because juice from the interior has been slowing leaking out and evaporating, the surface of the meat has had meat proteins steadily drying on it for the last 7 hours and it browns *really* well. After 20 minutes, you get a lovely golden brown crust. Give it maybe another 10 minute rest while you wait for the potatos to finish cooking and you finish making some gravy and you can get everything served piping hot.

I don't think it's really neccesary to go the full 24 hours. Rib roasts don't have nasty amounts of collagen like braising cuts. After all, you can cut them into steaks and grill them and they're still tender. After 7 hours, there hasn't been too much evaporation and the meat is tender and juicy.

PS: I am a guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, are we talking USDA Grade Prime meat or the generic apellelation that is used these days for a properly termed 'Standing Rib Roast'?

I purchase my Prime USDA Grade Rib Roast from Zier's in Wilmette, Illinois. Is is dry aged 21 days at the store. Aging in your refrigerator for a few days accomplishes nothing and merely deludes yourself into thinking you have accomplished something significant.

I'm talking about a standing rib roast. If there's any prime meat sold where I live - I haven't found it yet. Best rib roasts here are in Fresh Market - although the more expensive "aged" beef it sells isn't necessarily better than the cheaper stuff it also sells. I just eyeball the roasts - and look for one with decent marbling - no matter what the label says.

...

This Prime grade vs prime rib thing comes up once a year in this forum.

Prime grade is the top gov't grade of beef in Canada and the US, and you'll rarely see it at retail. It accounts for only an extremely tiny portion of the slaughter and a lot of it is exported. If I see anything being sold at retail as Prime grade, I'm suspicious.

To quote robyn's words of wisdom above, "I just eyeball the roasts - and look for one with decent marbling - no matter what the label says." Exactly; that's all you need to know about meat grading right there. Once your butcher knows you and knows that you know how to buy meat, you'll find that if you ask there's usually some good stuff around - maybe not in the display case...

The 'prime rib' thing is more complicated. A whole bone-in rib primal roast consists of 7 of the 12 rib bones, and is around 15-20 pounds. 'Prime' rib (no relation to Prime grade) traditionally refers to a smaller bone-in rib roast cut from the 4 or 5 ribs at the loin (smaller diameter, more tender, better marbled) end of the rib primal, while 'standing' rib refers to a roast cut from the 2-3 ribs at the shoulder/chuck (bigger diameter, less tender, less marbled) end.

This name difference was a gov't requirement in Canada, although that's now under review and may soon change. In the US these are sometimes called 'small end rib roast' and 'large end rib roast' respectively, which eliminates the confusion with Prime grade. Bottom line is if I see 'prime rib' I make sure I'm getting loin-end (small-end) ribs, not chuck-end ribs.

On the slow vs fast cooking methods and combi vs dry heat and regular vs convection, I've tried various methods and now am back to where I started:

- I always unwrap and dry the roast in the fridge for several hours or overnight.

- for big roasts, 20 min blast of dry convection as hot as the oven can go and then cook at around 325f dry convention until I get the internal temp I want, which varies with the size of the roast and the holding time;

- for small roasts (1-2 ribs) I sear in cast iron instead of blasting in the oven, then continue as above.

- rest at least 1/2 hour for big roasts; 10-15min for small.

Re home dry aging, I've tried variations on the Alton Brown method. For home use, it's not a bad method and you certainly can taste the difference; but these days people are so unused to the taste of dry aged beef that it's almost a waste of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry I am not sure about replying and all the quotes, etc. Hopefully, HKDave can let me know I have understood his method of cooking the prime rib. You said 20 mins blast of dry convection and then 325 dry convention... I understand that to mean you are switching to conventional oven, not convection, right? If that is correct, can you tell me why you switch from convection to conventional at that time? I appreciate your thoughts and experience, thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marlene, have you tried the method that HKDave described above, if I am correct in understanding he switched from convection to conventional bake?

Unless that's a typo, I'm not sure why Dave is switching from convection to conventional heat. I use a consistent convection heat all the time, but then, I don't ever start at high heat, unless I'm doing a small roast, which isn't all that often. Even at that, I would still use convection, just lower the temp after 15 minutes.

Marlene

Practice. Do it over. Get it right.

Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it possible that we all have different methods we like best because we all have different kinds of ovens with different cooking characteristics?

FWIW - I just noticed last week that I've been cooking my rib roast on the "convection bake" setting on my oven - which is mostly for cookies and other baked goods. There is also a "convection roast" setting which sets off different burners/fans (never noticed it before last week although I've had the ovens for about a decade - I'm not very observant :huh: ) - and I have no idea what that would do to a roast. At this point - I'm not sure I'm willing to experiment with a $50 cut of meat which I only make once in a very blue moon (my husband and I only eat beef about once or twice a month - and a rib roast maybe once a year). Robyn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...