Pies - Who, What, Where and Why

[Carrot Top]

On another thread, Janet (The Old Foodie) asked a question about pies.

One puzzling thing I expect some help on is the mystery of why the unqualified word pie, to you 'over there' means a dessert option, whereas here in Oz (and I suspect in the UK too) it means a meat pie.

Honestly, I don't have the slightest idea.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[srhcb]

On another thread, Janet (The Old Foodie) asked a question about pies.

One puzzling thing I expect some help on is the mystery of why the unqualified word pie, to you 'over there' means a dessert option, whereas here in Oz (and I suspect in the UK too) it means a meat pie.

Honestly, I don't have the slightest idea.

Does anyone have any ideas?

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To further confuse the issue; my Grandma Baker, (Scots/English), made pastys, which were beef/potato/carrot/rutebaga/onion incased in a freestanding crust, and pork pasty, which was pork and onion made like a regular two-crust pie.

I don't know why.

SB (also had a friend nicknamed "Pork Pie")(I don't know why either)

[Milagai]

Another bafflement:

why is pizza called "pie" in some places (New York?)

Milagai

[Carrot Top]

 

why is pizza called "pie" in some places (New York?)

Milagai

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I remember some people used to call them "tomato pies". First-generation Italian-Americans mostly. Here's a link to some history about that: A History of Pizza in America.

In 1905, Gennaro Lombardi applied to the New York City government for the first license to make and sell pizza in this country, at his grocery store on Spring Street in what was then a thriving Italian-American neighborhood. In 1912, Joe's Tomato Pies opened in Trenton, New Jersey.

[Carrot Top]

I looked through some books and could not find anything specific on why the difference in "idea of pie" but here are some things that might have bearing:

Cambridge World History of Food says (in speaking of New England, C early 1600's)

"The most ubiquitious dishes were pies [. . .] Indeed, a "Yankee" was to be defined as someone who ate pie for breakfast. [. . .] The types of pies reflected the seasonal availability of fruit."

Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America has this to say:

"Once pioneers came to a stop and found a piece of land to call their own, their pies reflected certain regional preferences"

and goes on to detail various region's economies - molasses-sweetened influenced by the molasses trade with the nearby Carribean; maple syrup across the north; cream and cheese on the dairy farms of the midwest; pecan and black walnut in the southwest; fish and tart berry pies influenced by the Swedes who settled the upper plains; and pasties and meat pies from the Cornish and Finnish in Michigan's upper peninsula. Florida- limes; Kentucky bourbon, sugar, cream, egg; north - pumpkins because they grow well; south - sweet potatoes for the same reason.

The only thing I can think of, beyond this, might be to wonder if the difference between a growing economy that was so varied agriculturally, with such largesse of fruits and vegetables as a boon - would influence the shapes pies took after leaving the somewhat less agricultural economy of the Old Country, where cities and towns had been a reality for ages, and where I think formal "industry" of various sorts was in place before it was in North America.

My history is patchy (and I like it that way, gives me a certain freedom of time-travel silliness ) but didn't the Industrial Revolution start in England, move to parts of Europe then finally land in America? Meaning that the economies in those places were less reliant upon what actually grew there, as transportation of foodstuffs was more commonplace and where possibly the growing of livestock was "industrialized" to the point where it was not just the family pig or cow that was slaughtered or the few head grown for the family, but that farmed livestock as a business was a reality, therefore more meat was actually available to all for such things as pies.

[The Old Foodie]

I suspect the plentiful fruit and the relative scarcity of wheat in early American settlements had something to do with it - pies take less flour than bread to make.

The early 'enforced' settlers of Australia (convicts and marines) were predominantly the urban poor from England, and for them the idea of meat as the basis of the diet was the ideal to which they aspired. The country certainly supported cattle and sheep more easily than fruit and veg too. Early free settlers were lured to the country with the promise of "meat three times a day".

There must be more theories - come on folks, where are they?

As for pizza being 'pie' - I have to disagree. The crucial thing was the development of pastry as distinct from bread dough. If bread dough can make it pie, then a toasted sandwich is a pie. Sorry, just wont do.

[srhcb]

There must be more theories - come on folks, where are they?

Okay, you asked for it!

Going way back in time now; what's the easiest thing to cook and eat?

Soup or stew, (which is only a matter of thickness), can be made with fruits, vegetables, meat or any combination thereof. It's easy to throw together, uses up scraps and odd pieces and parts, and isn't time sensitive in that one pot can be eaten over a long period of time.

What began life as soup often became stew, and later on almost a pudding or solid, at which point it would of necessity have become highly seasoned. (think mincemeat) A good way to get another meal out the resulting concoction would be to bake it in a pie shell.

Hence, anything baked in or on a crust becomes "pie". (pizza thus qualifies)

The only problem with pie, those little triangular TupperWare containers notwithstanding, is its nonportability. Completely encasing the contents within the crust solves this problem. When used for friut or nut fillings these are generally called "pastry". The quite similar word, "pasty", refers to a meat filling.

SB (or, maybe not?)

[The Old Foodie]

There must be more theories - come on folks, where are they?

Okay, you asked for it!

Going way back in time now; what's the easiest thing to cook and eat?

Soup or stew, (which is only a matter of thickness), can be made with fruits, vegetables, meat or any combination thereof. It's easy to throw together, uses up scraps and odd pieces and parts, and isn't time sensitive in that one pot can be eaten over a long period of time.

What began life as soup often became stew, and later on almost a pudding or solid, at which point it would of necessity have become highly seasoned. (think mincemeat) A good way to get another meal out the resulting concoction would be to bake it in a pie shell.

Hence, anything baked in or on a crust becomes "pie". (pizza thus qualifies)

The only problem with pie, those little triangular TupperWare containers notwithstanding, is its nonportability. Completely encasing the contents within the crust solves this problem. When used for friut or nut fillings these are generally called "pastry". The quite similar word, "pasty", refers to a meat filling.

SB (or, maybe not?)

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Historically 'Pies' were originally a way of baking a large piece of meat - the dough acted as a baking dish and storing and carrying container before baking dishes, refrigerators (the sealed dough was like a can, if it was not cracked or breached in any other way), and tupperware. A pie was a 'bake-meat'.

So yes, from that point of view, pizza may indeed be pie, if you dismiss the complete enclosure of the contents as being irrelevant to the definition. However, since the development of pastry (wonderful invention), we need to distinguish between bread dough and pastry-pies, or even a sandwich could be included, thus causing massive confusion when ordering one's lunch. Hence, my argument that now, a pie has pastry, not bread dough.

However - this beggars the original puzzle which was to do with the difference in emphasis between pie being a dessert in the USA and a meat option in other places.

I need some assistance with theories for this if I am to cover the cultural aspects in my book!

[Carrot Top]

Could it be that when we tossed that tea over the side of the boat in Boston Harbor we tossed the idea of meat pies too? *

Autonomy for the colonies and all that.

My reason for suggesting this at all is that our neighbor Canada still has more meat pies that we do. The tourtiere, of course, has a French name, but still *is* a meat pie. And they do tend towards having more pasties around.

........................................................

Interesting, for there are meat pies in other places too. Jamaican meat pies and samosas both come to mind, and in initial thought it would seem that likely the island of Jamaica had a more agrarian-vegetable-fruit based "cuisine" (funny how that French word has made its way in the world) before becoming a British colony and would also seem that likely the samosas of India were originally vegetarian rather than made of beef in general, considering both the low availability of land for grazing cattle *and* the religious tabus.

Yet both of those places were British colonies that remained so for longer than the USA did. And Australia has a closer relationship too, no? Could it be that where the British lay their crown, the meat pie rises with an imperious nod of its head, its old eyes crinkling in an indulgent smile?

*Note: Did I read somewhere, actually, that we did not toss any tea at all, that it was really just a darn good story? Sigh. History.

[judiu]

Ok. so what about Stromboli and Calzone? Aren't they just Italian versions of pastys? Supersized, in the case of stromboli, but still...

[H. du Bois]

We certainly don't eat meat pies to the degree that the English do, but we do sometimes eat them - one of the great treats of my childhood was eating chicken pot pie at a genteel but shabby restaurant atop a downtown department store with my grandmother.

Any frozen food case in an American grocery store will yield chicken pot pies or turkey pot pies (not good at all, but they were an early version of convenience food). Beyond that, not much in the way of meat pies. Cottage pie (incorrectly called shepherd's pie*) will turn up at English style pubs and the like, but there isn't any reason it shouldn't be a part of mainstream culture, except that it isn't.

I wonder if the lack of meat pies in our culture doesn't have to do with our cooking habits. I think that here, we're far more likely to grill our meat to begin with, and leftovers are often used in sandwiches. We don't tend to recook it. Ground (minced) beef tends to be grilled as well, as hamburgers.

Fruit pies and tarts do reign here, and they're very good.

* Ground beef is ubiquitous here, ground lamb is not.

Edited December 17, 2006 by H. du Bois (log)

[nakji]

Just my guesses:

Adding to above, there was generally a lot of meat available in North America to early settlers, so it didn't have to be stretched by being baked into a pie - whole joints, steaks, birds, etc. could be eaten; and a greater availability of sugar - from the Caribbean and the South, and in Canada - maple syrup.

I don't know why, but I feel like Margaret Visser has something to say about this. Does anyone remember this from her books?

[Carrot Top]

I don't know why, but I feel like Margaret Visser has something to say about this. Does anyone remember this from her books?

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Good call. I searched Visser, found an essay that included her as source, and just found this (though this part does not specifically quote her, but anyway. . .):

Conversely, a few complained about the myriad of ingredients used to fill pie crusts. If anything, the fact that pies could be filled with meat, vegetables, or fruit, and made savory or sweet, made it a universal favorite. Most people would probably have agreed with the cookery writer who said, "if we have a national dish we suppose its name is pie."[32] Pies, however, are not an American invention. Europeans particularly the English whose cookbooks were the first used by Americans, filled pastry long before the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. In those years meat seemed to be the preferred ingredient. Fruit did not take first place as a filling until the nineteenth century. In American Cookery, published in 1796, and the first cookbook to be published in America, eight out of thirteen pie recipes used meat; whereas only five call for fruit, three of which used fresh or dried apples.

By the time emigrants arrived in the northwest, fruit pies replaced meat pies in popularity, with apple pies becoming an American favorite. And although most people complained about dried apples, and coined ditties such as "spit in my eyes, and tell me lies, but give me no dried apple pies," Allie Roberts, in a letter to her sister, asked her mother to "tuck in some of those dried apples you had left over. They are 20 cents a lb. out here."[33]

In spite of shortages such as fresh fruit, sugar, butter, and eggs, serving dessert seemed to be important to American women during the last half of the nineteenth century. Most likely this stemmed from the Victorian era's concern with ritual and appearance. Being able to bring dessert to the table announced that you had more than the bare necessities.

From the site Cultural Aspects of Foods - Food Resources - Oregon State University

[The Old Foodie]

I've been racking my brain and my computer files to find out an exact quotation about thanksgiving pies - anyone out there help me? It was along the lines of "if you tell me which sort of pies grace your table at thanksgiving, I'll tell you where (in the South?) you are from".

[Pan]

Just my guesses:

Adding to above, there was generally a lot of meat available in North America to early settlers, so it didn't have to be stretched by being baked into a pie - whole joints, steaks, birds, etc. could be eaten; and a greater availability of sugar - from the Caribbean and the South, and in Canada - maple syrup.[...]

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Not just Canada, but wherever there are sugar maples. I haven't researched their distribution in previous periods of history, but today, there are quite significant quantities of maples syrup harvested and sold at least as far south as Pennsylvania.

[Carrot Top]

I've been racking my brain and my computer files to find out an exact quotation about thanksgiving pies -

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I've posted the question in the Southern Food Culture forum, Janet. Maybe luck will appear there.

[Carrot Top]

Ok. so what about Stromboli and Calzone? Aren't they just Italian versions of pastys? Supersized, in the case of stromboli, but still...

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Good points. Delicious, too.

If we follow the rule of "no bread dough" as far as describing a pie, though, most of those would not make it through the door.

You did remind me, though, of a similar thing that *is* made with a short crust. Italian Easter Pie.

Easter Pie has many different names and even more recipes, depending on the section of Italy in question. In Naples it is known as "pastiera," and is made with ricotta cheese and whole grains of wheat to symbolize rebirth. It is also known as "pizza piena," (stuffed pie), and in Italian-American dialect, "pizza gain." "Pizza Rustica" is still another term and refers to the savory and rustic aspects of the pie. Italian meat pie is called a "pizzachino" which means pie of meat or meat pie in Italian.

Sicilians make a pie made from macaroni, pork, cheese and eggs. Calabrians favor ham, sausage, hard cooked eggs, mozzarella and ricotta. In Liguria, where it's referred to as "pasqualina," it's made from spinach, ricotta, cheese and eggs. In central Italy, from Umbria to Marches, the Easter Pie is more of a bread than a pie and is known as "torta di pasqua" or "pizza di pasqua."

In the Italian family I was part of for a time from marriage (nice convoluted sentence there, huh? I dislike the word "ex". ) the Easter Pie was a huge production each year.

Jo (the mother of the house) would make a short crust with part butter, part olive oil. It would line large trays that were then filled with an excess of meats and cheeses. This was not a well-to-do family at all, yet no expense was spared. I bet she saved pennies and odd change in order to have a little fund to make this pie each year, if I know her. Layer of four kinds of meat (pepperoni; cappacola; prosciutto; and "honey ham") were interspersed with four kinds of cheeses (mozzarella; parmesan; ricotta; and provolone) along with slices of hard-boiled eggs and basil leaves (which had been frozen whole at summer's end). It was about two inches tall by then, and would be covered with more crust, brushed with egg and baked.

I'll never forget that pie.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[viva]

We certainly don't eat meat pies to the degree that the English do, but we do sometimes eat them - one of the great treats of my childhood was eating chicken pot pie at a genteel but shabby restaurant atop a downtown department store with my grandmother.

Any frozen food case in an American grocery store will yield chicken pot pies or turkey pot pies (not good at all, but they were an early version of convenience food).  Beyond that, not much in the way of meat pies.  Cottage pie (incorrectly called shepherd's pie*) will turn up at English style pubs and the like, but there isn't any reason it shouldn't be a part of mainstream culture, except that it isn't.

I wonder if the lack of meat pies in our culture doesn't have to do with our cooking habits.  I think that here, we're far more likely to grill our meat to begin with, and leftovers are often used in sandwiches.  We don't tend to recook it. Ground (minced) beef tends to be grilled as well, as hamburgers. 

Fruit pies and tarts do reign here, and they're very good. 

* Ground beef is ubiquitous here, ground lamb is not.

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I dunno - homemade beef pot pies were a very big part of Grandma's meal plans when I was a kid. (Just because they were homemade does not mean they were good - I would have killed for a frozen one as a kid. But Grandma's horrific cooking is a story for another time.) And we usually have homemade turkey pot pies after Thanksgiving (now that Grandma no longer cooks, these are actually tasty). I make chicken pot pies fairly regularly. Maybe my family is a pot-pie-loving minority? If so, that makes me happy.

BUT: I agree with the premise that to me, even as an American meat-pie aficionado, "pie" refers to a fruit/sweet pie, and "pot pie" is the meat/savory kind.

Edited December 19, 2006 by viva (log)

[Carrot Top]

Then of course there is one of my favorites which is neither fish nor fowl nor. . .well. . .it's a pasta pie.

Timballo di Maccheroni

[The Old Foodie]

I've been racking my brain and my computer files to find out an exact quotation about thanksgiving pies -

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I've posted the question in the Southern Food Culture forum, Janet. Maybe luck will appear there.

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Found it! It is attributed to Clementine Paddleford, and she was talking about Thanksgiving pies:

"Tell me where your grandmother came from and I can tell you how many kinds of pie you serve for Thanksgiving."

I havent been able to authenticate it yet, but she apparently <a href= "http://opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110005950" >summed up</a>

"Midwesterners served two (mince and pumpkin), New Englanders three (mince, pumpkin and cranberry), Bostonians four (mince, pumpkin, cranberry and a gussied-up version of apple pie called Marlborough) and Southerners none (they preferred "wine jelly, tender and trembling")"

Now, there is a pie book in progress on my computer, and the deadline approacheth, and I - an English-born Aussie - have to get my head around the role of the pie at Thanksgiving. I'd love your input. Does this pretty well sum it up? I expect some loud comment from the pie-less "Southerners" amongst you.

And - here is your chance to be in print: I need to provide a lot of illustrations for the book, and am severely lacking in the Thanksgiving Pie photo department. If anyone has a stunning pic of what seems to me to be the "big three" (pumpkin, mince, and apple - am I correct?) or some other authentic Thanksgiving pie combination - maybe I could buy it/use it??

[Kouign Aman]

How did pecan pie get left off the thanksgiving table? Tragedy!

[Adam Balic]

Australia has plenty of savoury pies it is true, but these are almost always small, hand held, individual portions, rather then "family" dishes. It's true that you can get larger family style pies, but they must represent a tiny proportion of the total. So I think that pies in Australia represent a fast food, one reason why it isn't the same case in the USA is simply that there are other foods that fill the same niche. This may reflect specific circumstances or simply be a result of chance.

The original free standing 'coffin' pies largely fell out of favour during the latter part of the 18th century and pretty much disappeared by the mid-19th, with a few exceptions like pork pies and veal pies. The was an increasing trend to using pie dishes, even when the pie was a double crust. So I don't think that the States 'lost' anything, there eating preferences simply reflect the greater trends at the time and local preferences. The development of the "Pot Pie" reflects this.

[Carrot Top]

Found it!  It is attributed to Clementine Paddleford, and she was talking about Thanksgiving pies:

"Tell me where your grandmother came from and I can tell you how many kinds of pie you serve for Thanksgiving."

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I remember reading Clementine Paddleford in old Gourmet magazines. What a name! Who could dare say nay to a woman with a name like that?

"Midwesterners served two (mince and pumpkin), New Englanders three (mince, pumpkin and cranberry), Bostonians four (mince, pumpkin, cranberry and a gussied-up version of apple pie called Marlborough) and Southerners none (they preferred "wine jelly, tender and trembling")"

Now, there is a pie book in progress on my computer, and the deadline approacheth, and I - an English-born Aussie - have to get my head around the role of the pie at Thanksgiving. I'd love your input. Does this pretty well sum it up?  I expect some loud comment from the pie-less "Southerners" amongst you.

In my own experience, the most common Thanksgiving pies are pumpkin, apple, and pecan. They are sometimes added to (at the dessert table) by various cakes or cookies. It's not just pie, anymore, baby.

Our Thanksgiving traditions have altered, I believe, including the pie part, since Clementine wrote that. You might find more information about our status of current and past pie-dom from one of the food history groups such as The Culinary Historians of New York or maybe even additional information about sorts of pies and amounts of each type sold/served currently at Thanksgiving at the site of an industry journal such as Restaurants and Institutions.

As far as photos go, there are some gorgeous ones to be found of all varieties if you surf the food sections of stock photo sites, of course. It *would* be nice to get a real, home-made one, though, wouldn't it.