tough, hard crust on pumpkin pie

[JohnRichardson]

I made a pumpkin pie for thanksgiving. The filling was great, but the crust was pretty bad. It was very hard, almost crunchy, and kind of tough. It was very hard to cut, especially towards the edges. Pie crust is something I've never mastered, but when I panned this one I thought it would be great. I make great biscuits almost every time, but pie crusts are always a crapshoot for me. Here's what I did:

4.5 oz AP flour, 1/2 tsp salt 1/8 tsp baking powder

3 oz butter, cut into quarters lengthwise then sliced into about 1/8" slices into the flour, then all of the above chilled for 15 minutes. Cut the flour so that it was still pretty chunky, although I worked it in well in well on one side of the bowl, so it was about half meal and half dimes. Added 1 T cider vinegar and maybe 4-5 T ice water (I think it was 5, I was hoping for 4, but had to add "one more" to get it to ball up). Chilled the disc for 20 mins, rolled out and panned, chilled for about 10 minutes while the oven heated and blind baked for 14 minutes @ 400 with a second pan holding it in place (not my kitchen, and wouldja believe it, no dry beans or even rice), then about 5 more "bare", then filled and baked for 60 more minutes at 350 (middle rack the whole time).

I see 3 possibilities: overdone, too much water, or too much handling. It was pretty brown, but didn't look or smell burned. I think I tend to roll too slowly and hesitantly so it could have been overhandling, and it seemed kind of warm when I was done rolling so I probably should have chilled everything for longer. I don't see how I could have used any less water than I did, and there was very little shrinking so I don't think that's it. I probably should have chilled for an hour after panning instead of just 5 minutes, 5 minutes probably didn't do anything to relax any gluten, but I was in a hurry, dammit! . I also see that I might have had a bit too much salt, but it's within the range I see in recipes.

All of the aunts make pie crust in one step then fill and bake immediately, and their crusts are always tender, but they use crisco instead of butter. It seemed more crunchy and hard than tough, so I don't think it was gluten that caused my problem. Should I blind bake a pumpkin pie? All the recipes I see call for it, for the most part.

[sheetz]

I'm a mere novice compared to other bakers here, but it seems to me that 5 T of water and 1 T of vinegar is way too much liquid for 4.5 oz of flour, and that's not even including the water in the butter. I think either you didn't incorporate the butter well enough into the flour or the flour you used had too high a protein content. Also, shortening will give you a more tender crust.

I always blind bake my crusts for pumpkin pie. In fact I bake it till it's almost fully baked, and then add the filling warm so that it will set up quickly.

Edited November 24, 2006 by sheetz (log)

[miladyinsanity]

I think it's too much water, but I'm another novice. But my pie crusts always turn out well. I think it's beginner's luck.

I think my pie crusts have a higher butter to flour ratio as well.

[beccaboo]

I think it's too much water, too. My pie crust has 5 oz flour, 2.5 oz shortening, 1/2t salt, 1t sugar, and only 3-4T water. (usually 4T if I'm using AP flour, a little less for pastry flour).

[JohnRichardson]

Too much water seems to be the consensus. I think it had 5T total, 4 of water 1 of vinegar (I was hoping for 1 vinegar and 3 water), but it is possible it had 6. But it absolutely would not ball up at all without that extra bit of water, so I don't know... Plus it didn't shrink.

I tried again, and forced the water to be 4 T total, and it was a crumbly disaster. I made a second one with 5T total and it worked, and it was still slightly tough, but not as bad as the pumpkin one, but then again it was only blind baked, not blind baked + cooked for an hour, so this points another finger at the "overcooked" cause (This was a lemon meringue, which was a disaster for another reason, namely it was lemon soup... Hi, my name is john, and I am an utter failure at pies... Does this mean that I am not mixing the butter in well enough? I flipped through RLB's pie and pastry bible at a bookstore (it's on my amazon wishlist, so I might get it soon), and she talks about "waterproofing the flour" which is what it sounds like I'm missing... I like the idea of an all butter crust, and it seems that some people are successful with that, but I may give up on it and go to shortening which seems to be nearly foolproof. Or I can order leaf lard, I am generaly anti shortening, but I guess the new "0 g trans fat" stuff might be worth a shot... . My final experiment will be to try RLB's cream cheese crust and see how that works for me. I'm thinking about making a quiche to have on hand for quick lunches this week...

This is really frustrating. I can make bread and I can make biscuits in my sleep, but pastry eludes me.

[sheetz]

  Does this mean that I am not mixing the butter in well enough? 

Most likely. The fat makes the flour absorb less liquid. In my experience, it's not rough handling that toughens pie dough so much as too much water. If you add the right amount of water you can play around with the dough quite a bit without it toughening up too much. Gluten needs water to form and if there's not too much water the gluten just can't form. Another thing you can do is replace some of the AP flour with cake flour to make it more tender. What brand of AP flour do you use? That can make a difference as well.

[JohnRichardson]

Another thing you can do is replace some of the AP flour with cake flour to make it more tender. What brand of AP flour do you use? That can make a difference as well.

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I see that the RLB recipe mentions that flour mix. I don't have cake flour, but I suppose that is easily remedied. At home, I use KA unbleached AP. For these, I was using Gold Medal AP (I assume bleached and enriched, I didn't buy it I might give that a shot. For my next crust I'll try cutting in half or 2/3 of the butter until it's almost gone (crumbs), then add the other half and sort of barely break it up, hopefully that will help the flour not absorb water as readily. That's what I do with my biscuits when I'm not planning on laminating. If I'm laminating and turning, I just chop it up with my bench scraper, dump it in, toss it around a little, and add the buttermilk, figuring that rolling and turning repeatedly will break it up

[sheetz]

I see that the RLB recipe mentions that flour mix.  I don't have cake flour, but I suppose that is easily remedied.  At home, I use KA unbleached AP.  For these, I was using Gold Medal AP (I assume bleached and enriched, I didn't buy it   I might give that a shot.  For my next crust I'll try cutting in half or 2/3 of the butter until it's almost gone (crumbs), then add the other half and sort of barely break it up, hopefully that will help the flour not absorb water as readily.  That's what I do with my biscuits when I'm not planning on laminating.  If I'm laminating and turning, I just chop it up with my bench scraper, dump it in, toss it around a little, and add the buttermilk, figuring that rolling and turning repeatedly will break it up

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KA unbleached is not really the ideal flour to use for pastries. It has a relatively high protein content (hence a higher gluten content) of 11.7% which is close to that of some bread flours. Regular supermarket bleached AP will actually give you a better pie crust than KA unbleached AP. KA does produce pastry flours which would work far better.

This article about differences in flour is a good read.

http://www.post-gazette.com/food/20011220flour1220sfnp2.asp

[etalanian]

I use a combination of KA unbleached flour and cake flour. I also use a European-style butter, which is lower in moisture than regular butters, and I don't use any shortening. My crusts are always light and crisp. Butter crusts taste much better than shortening crusts, IMHO, and they don't leave that nasty greasy coating in your mouth the way shortening crusts do.

I think you may have overworked the dough; that's the single biggest reason pastry crusts are tough. Also, you're right about over baking; pumpkin pie crusts aren't usually blind-baked first.

If you are interested, my recipe can be found here.

You shouldn't assume you can't make pies. You just need some good recipes and a little practice.

How did you make the lemon meringue pie?

Eileen

[djyee100]

I always made mediocre, if not bad, piecrust until I read Judy Rodgers' explication of pie crust in her cookbook, the Zuni Cafe Cookbook (page 481). Rodgers explains that to keep a piecrust tender and flaky, add less water if you are working the butter into small bits, and relatively more water if you are leaving the butter in chunks. The light went on in my head, because I was inclined to work the butter in a lot, then add copious amounts of water. The result: cement.

I suggest you read those passages in the Zuni Cafe Cookbook. Since my enlightenment, I have made consistently excellent pie crusts, to my amazement.

I like to use the recipe for pie crust in the Zuni Cookbook, also. It contains more butter than your pumpkin piecrust. (Maybe too little butter to flour contributed to the toughness?) The Zuni recipe is simply a cup of flour, a stick of butter, and enough ice water to hold it together. Rodgers uses salted butter, which I can't abide, so I use unsalted butter and add 1/4 to 1/2 tsp salt. This recipe makes a 9" piecrust.

To keep myself from overworking the dough, I add just enough water so the dough pulls together, then I let the dough hydrate in the fridge for at least a few hours, or even better, overnight. By hydration I mean that the water in the dough, from both the ice water and the butter (butter contains water), has a chance to moisten all the flour consistently. When you take the dough out of the fridge it will even look different: darker and moister, with a more consistent texture. You will have to let the dough warm up a little in order to roll it out.

Handy tip: After you mix up the dough, form a rough ball and place it on a large square of plastic wrap. Loosely wrap the dough ball in the plastic wrap. Then with your palm flatten the plastic-wrapped ball into a disk about 3/4" thick. The disk will be easier to roll out later. Then put the dough disk in the fridge to hydrate.

Another good piecrust recipe: Julia Child's pate brisee in Mastering the Art of French Cooking, vol I, page 139 et seq. This recipe always works for me when I make quiche lorraine. Julia suggests fraisage, a final smearing of butter and flour, that I find makes a better piecrust (page 141). She also gives a great explanation for rolling out dough, something else I never did well until I read her cookbook.

If you don't own these cookbooks, try your public library.

good luck!

[jgm]

John, if you live anywhere near Wichita, KS, PM me and we'll see about getting together for piecrust lessons.

I'm like your aunts; I never measure anything and my crusts always turn out well. Here's my method:

1. For a one-crust pie, smack a pile of shortening the size of your fist, into a bowl. For a two-crust pie, two piles, each the size of a fist.

2. Cover with sifted AP flour. Pour about a penny-sized spot of salt into the palm of your hand, and throw it in (more for two-crusts, of course). Using either a pastry blender or the side of a fork, repeatedly cut through the mixture until the largest pieces are the size of small peas. If it looks like all of the flour has been incorporated before that happens, stop, and sprinkle on more flour. Repeat until the largest pieces are the size of small peas. While working this mixture, occasionally run the fork around the sides and bottom of the bowl to mix in whatever's in the bottom.

3. As you start pouring either cold milk or ice water into the bowl, count to 2 1/2 and stop. That's right, 2 1/2. 3 is too far. 2 isn't enough. If you've been using a pastry blender, abandon it now and pick up a fork. Start folding the mixture together. Add more liquid, carefully, as necessary until there's enough liquid to hold about 95% of the mixture together in a ball. The ball should not be sticky-wet. (If it is, get out a second bowl and repeat the above procedure through 1 and 2, but using less ingredients. Then incorporate some or all of the new flour/fat mixture into the too-wet dough.)

4. Turn the mixture out onto a floured board or cloth, and gently start pushing it together into a ball, then flatten into a disk. You can knead the dough up to 3 times, if you feel it needs it. Re-flour the surface, put the disk in the center, and lightly flour it.

5. Roll out the crust: starting in the middle of the disk, roll out to the edge. Repeat, rolling in different directions, turning the disk, and replacing flour underneath it. When it's not quite the size of a pie plate, pick it up, re-flour the board, flip it over, lightly flour the surface, and continue rolling.

Maybe something in there will help you identify things you might want to do differently. I've never worked with butter, so I can't help you there!

[paulraphael]

I agree with the consensus here. A simple thing to remember is that pastry dough typically has 1/3 the weight of the flour in liquid. That's very little.

Typical bakers percentage for sweet pastry (pâte sucrée) are

100% flour, 66% butter, 33% liquid, 10% sugar, and 1/2% salt

If you don't like numbers, a way to tell if the hydration is right and the mixing is adequate is to grab a pinch. If it barely holds together, and tends to crack and crumble, you're there. As unlikely as it seems.

If I can't get the dough to form a ball, I'll pile it in bowl and let it sit covered in the fridge for 20 minutes or so. That rest can allow the flour to hydrate enough to form dough.

When the dough does its final rest in the fridge (at least 30 minutes, but I find 24 hours is ideal) the flour will fully hydrate and it will become manageable enough to roll out. It will also develop better flavor. As djyee said, this part is important. If you try to get it doughlike too quickly, by adding more water or by overworking it, you'll get a brick.

Some other things that will help tenderize the crust are higher butterfat buttter (french farm style butter is as much as 86% butterfat, vs. 80% for most supermarket butter) and pastry flour (buy it or make your own by blending AP flour with cake flour or corn starch).

Roll out and form as others have suggested (and I give another vote for Julia Child's instructions, but I much prefer all butter over her butter/shortening mix). Just make shure to work quickly, and to work the dough as little as possible. If the kitchen is warm, the dough may get sticky. If so, stop, and put it in the fridge for 20 minutes or so to relax it and re-solidify the butter. If you let the butter melt, you'll end up again with a brick.

[Edited! I wrote the percentages from memory and got them wrong]

Edited December 2, 2006 by paulraphael (log)

[JohnRichardson]

I haven't had a chance to make another crust since the last disaster, but I feel like I've got some ideas to try. I was basically using 3:2:1 for the flour and fat, and then "until it balls up" for the water, but I think that I wasn't sufficiently cutting the fat, so I needed more water, leading to a hard crust. According to my copy of The Professional Chef which I consulted becuase I figured it would have pictures and weights and simplicity (3 for 3 on those counts , you should use approx 1 ounce of final dough for each inch of diameter thusly 9 ounces for a 9" pie, which gives 4.5 ounces of flour, 3 ounces of butter, and 1.5 ounces, or 3 T of water. But I was ending up with a 12:8:7 crust instead

Next time I try, I am going to go with a thicker crust, and I'll do 12 ounces of final dough since that works out to 1 stick of butter and most replies have called for 6 oz by weight of flour. I'm going to combine the flour in 2 steps, with the first step getting 2/3 of the butter and cutting to fairly fine pieces of fat, and the second step just barely cutting at all. That should allow me to use less water, but hopefully I won't be back to the problem I used to have of a cracking, splitting, impossible-to-roll crust. We'll see how it goes. I think I'm overthinking this.

As far as the lemon pie disaster, I used the recipe from Fannie Farmer for lemon meringue pie (the only cookbook I had on hand, but not one that I've had a ton of luck with), which involves combining sugar, water, flour, and cornstartch, cooking on low "until thickened, then 10 minutes more, until clear", then adding the lemon juice, zest, and butter. I don't think that description did it for me, and I vastly undercooked it. I looked at alton brown's recipe, since his recipes are usually much more descriptive on what things should look like, and it sounds like it has to come to a full simmer, which mine definitely did not. Having thickened liquids with starch before, that should have been apparent to me but for some reason, in the heat of the moment, I tend to submit to the authority of the recipe on the first attempt at least instead of going by feel. Subsequent attempts rely much more on feel.

[sheetz]

you should use approx 1 ounce of final dough for each inch of diameter thusly 9 ounces for a 9" pie, which gives 4.5 ounces of flour, 3 ounces of butter, and 1.5 ounces, or 3 T of water. 

Technically, since most butters are only 80% fat and 17% water, 3 oz of butter and 1.5 oz of water equals 2.4 oz of fat and 2 oz of water. In order to get the ratios to 3:2:1 you would need 4.5 oz of flour, 3.75 oz of butter, and 0.86 oz of water.

Edited December 4, 2006 by sheetz (log)

[jgm]

I saw something this morning about using a flat whisk as a pastry blender. Not having tried it, I can't attest to how well it works. Just thought I'd mention it, in case someone wants to try it.

I have arthritis in my hands, so I can't always hold a fork, and sometimes a pastry blender isn't very comfortable, either. I just went to a Pampered Chef party, and they have a new pastry blender out. It's hard to describe; kind of looks like a cross between a potato masher and a pastry blender. Using it, the motion would be similar to pounding one's fist on a table. I haven't decided if I'll try it or not. While not restaurant quality, it does appear to be well-made.

[JohnRichardson]

Technically, since most butters are only 80% fat and 17% water, 3 oz of butter and 1.5 oz of water equals 2.4 oz of fat and 2 oz of water. In order to get the ratios to 3:2:1 you would need 4.5 oz of flour, 3.75 oz of butter, and 0.86 oz of water.

←

I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall, it specified butter, so I assume that the total amount of fat is correct using butter directly, and one would use .8 of the butter weight if using lard or shortening. Not sure about water adjustments, since the water in the butter doesn't get mixed into the flour directly, but mostly converted to steam during cooking.

[sheetz]

[

I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall, it specified butter, so I assume that the total amount of fat is correct using butter directly, and one would use .8 of the butter weight if using lard or shortening.  Not sure about water adjustments, since the water in the butter doesn't get mixed into the flour directly, but mostly converted to steam during cooking.

←

For most baking recipes it's definitely better to at least partially account for the added water in the butter. Have you ever made shortbread cookies? It's just butter sugar, and flour mixed together. Without that little bit of water in the butter no gluten would form and the cookies would not hold together.

Edited December 4, 2006 by sheetz (log)

[djyee100]

I'm going to combine the flour in 2 steps, with the first step getting 2/3 of the butter and cutting to fairly fine pieces of fat, and the second step just barely cutting at all.  That should allow me to use less water

←

The amounts of water given in pastry recipes have almost never worked for me, because the optimal amount of water can vary depending on the weather, the brand of flour you're using, and most importantly, on how finely you have cut in your butter. At one end of the spectrum is a shortbread-like piecrust with no water, and at the other end is puff pastry, with super-big pieces of butter, a fair amount of water, and a very flaky texture.

The finer you cut in your butter, the more careful you should be about adding water.

The most water-tolerant dough has lots of large pieces of butter in it. I now make my dough with dime-size pieces of butter, so I don't worry about adding too much water. There's marbled butter showing in the dough when I roll it out. It's OK! It makes a very flaky crust.

I've made piecrusts with 3 oz and 4 oz of butter per cup of flour. The piecrust with more butter (4 oz) was more tender and seemed more water-tolerant.

BTW, jgm's post of 12/1/06 contains some excellent pastrymaking technique, especially steps 3, 4, and 5. I myself would hydrate the dough between steps 4 and 5.

Let us know how your pastry experiments go.

Edited December 5, 2006 by djyee100 (log)

[paulraphael]

you should use approx 1 ounce of final dough for each inch of diameter thusly 9 ounces for a 9" pie, which gives 4.5 ounces of flour, 3 ounces of butter, and 1.5 ounces, or 3 T of water. 

Technically, since most butters are only 80% fat and 17% water, 3 oz of butter and 1.5 oz of water equals 2.4 oz of fat and 2 oz of water. In order to get the ratios to 3:2:1 you would need 4.5 oz of flour, 3.75 oz of butter, and 0.86 oz of water.

←

That's a good point. I've been using butters that way for a little while .. considering them 80% fat (or 85% for the good stuff, which does make better pastry), but i've never seen anything written about it. I have not compensated for the water in the butter by reducing the added water. it just seems to take so long for the water to get liberated from the butter, that it isn't available effect the handling of the dough.

[djyee100]

I've been using butters that way for a little while .. considering them 80% fat (or 85% for the good stuff, which does make better pastry), but i've never seen anything written about it.

←

Shirley Corriher in her cookbook, Cookwise, only counts the fat content of butter in her basic formula for piecrust.

I have not compensated for the water in the butter by reducing the added water. it just seems to take so long for the water to get liberated from the butter, that it isn't available effect the handling of the dough.

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I don't compensate for the water in butter when I mix up the dough, either. However, after hydrating the dough in the fridge, the dough is so much moister that I have assumed that water from the butter has leached into the dough.

When it comes to adding water to dough, look and feel should be your guidelines. Just add enough water to form a rough, dryish ball of dough.