Wild Yeast Pain L'ancienne

[kevinnoe]

I'm hoping to start a new thread, or discover an existing thread, about using Pain L'ancienne technique to make wild yeast breads with no additional commercial yeast. I think that I'm really onto something wonderful here, and I'm wondering if there are others out there who are dabbling with the same issue. If you are out there - please let me know.

As a starter, pardon the pun, I'm convinced that the secret lay in a long standing misconception that rise and fermentation are essentially the same thing. People constantly use the terms rise and fermentation virtually interchangeably - and they talk of prolonging rise when what they really mean is prolonging fermentation. Pain L'ancienne technique blew the doors off that notion and I'm hoping to press forward using that information to develop new ways of approaching all kinds of wild yeast bread making. I don't seem to find any other people out there working on this wonderful breakthrough yet, but I know you are out there somewhere. I probably have not looked in the right place. Anyone interested?

What say ye?

Kevin

[jackal10]

Demo: Sourdough Bagette a la Anciennne: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=73591&st=0

[kevinnoe]

Demo: Sourdough Bagette a la Anciennne: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=73591&st=0

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Thanks for reminding me that the basis of your experiment is, in fact, Wild Yeast L'ancienne! I had previously read this post, but in following the thread through I wound up getting distracted. There is so much other talk in that thread about tending to starters and Vitamin C that I wonder if it hasn't gotten off topic a little into a more general sourdough disussion.

Anyway - back to L'ancienne. Three questions:

1) Have you experimented much with the percentage of levain used in the final dough? I'm wondering if you honed in on the 33% amount after much trial and error making exactly the same dough, or whether you started with this amount and stuck with it as it conformes to basically tripling for the final dough? In a sense, one of the dilemmas with Sourdough L'ancienne is that the larger the percentage of ripe starter in the final dough, the less actually L'ancienne it is - in a sense - as a higher percentage of the dough has been allowed to ripen traditionally outside the fridge. Anyway - have you tried lots of different percentages? What results did you get?

2) I'm assuming that you have made the L'ancienne using commercial yeast as well. I'm wondering you feel like you have been able to attain, with wild yeast, that particular quality of sweetness that one finds in a commericially yeasted bread done using L'ancienne technique. Have you compared the two side by side in tastings?

3) You mention at one point "The recipe above uses very mature sponge, and the residual heat of the dough as it cools in the fridge. Recently I've been fermenting it for an additional 3-4 hours with even better results." I'm wondering if you are referring to fermenting the starter for an additional 3-4 hours before mixing the dough or are you talking about fermenting the dough itself for 3-4 hours before putting it into the fridge for its cold fermentation?

Thanks. It's nice to know someone else is on the same quest.

Kevin

[rooftop1000]

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=86606

there is one more too, somewhere

tracey

[jackal10]

Anyway - back to L'ancienne.  Three questions:

1) Have you experimented much with the  percentage of levain used in the final dough?  I'm wondering if you honed in on the  33% amount after much trial and error making exactly the same dough,  or whether you started with this amount and stuck with it as it conformes to basically tripling for the final dough? 

Some terminology here. I take it you mean the amount of sponge preferment, rather than the amount of mother starter.

Yes I have experimented with different amounts of sponge. I started using less, because Dan Lepard does, but experimented and found this works best for me, More and the bread doesn't rise as well and gets too sour . Roughly the sponge step contributes the flavour, and the dough the rise.

Having read "The Handbook of Dough Fermentation" edited by Kulp and Lorenz (available from CHIPS but expensive) I've changed to using a stiff preferment.

It means you have to machine mix, rather than stretch and fold, but I do that anyway.

Typical formula now is

Sponge preferment

Flour 200g

Water 100g (50% hydration)

Mother starter 10g

Ferment at 85C for 12 hours

Dough

400g flour

320g water

12g salt

Pinch Vit C (0.1g)

Pre mix and allow to soak for an hour

then mix with the starter

Bulk ferment 2 hours, shape, and then either retard overnight or prove 2 hours.

2) I'm assuming that you have made the L'ancienne using commercial yeast as well.  I'm wondering you feel like you have been able to attain,  with wild yeast,  that particular quality of sweetness that one finds in a commercially yeasted bread done using L'ancienne technique.  Have you compared the two side by side in tastings?

Not side by side. I prefer sourdough. Yeast will need different formulation and timings. The acid in the sourdough plays an important part in converting starch to fermentable sugars, and in thinning the viscosity.

3)  You mention at one point  "The recipe above uses very mature sponge, and the residual heat of the dough as it cools in the fridge. Recently I've been fermenting it for an additional 3-4 hours with even better results."  I'm wondering if you are referring to fermenting the starter for an additional 3-4 hours before mixing the dough or are you talking about fermenting the dough itself for 3-4 hours before putting it into the fridge for its cold fermentation?

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For my sourdough four hours from mixing to bake is about optimum. Retardation and baking from cold are about equivalent to 2 hours proof. Of course once the dough is cold it the time it stays cold, within reason doesn't make much difference, whether its 4 or 24 hours. If you plan on using frozen dough, omit the bulk fermentation step and shape and freeze directly after mixing, then prove before baking.

[kevinnoe]

Thanks for the info. Of course I do mean the amount of preferment - I'll always call the leavening agent that is mixed into the final dough the "levain" or leaven to keep from getting confused.

Two additional questions.

1) Is your levain, after its twelve hour fermentation, at a typical ripe and lively stage - quite tenacious and, roughly, having doubled in size? Or... alternatively, does your 12 hour fermentation result in a levain that is almost overripe and not on its way up, but a little on the way down?

2) When you say you bake from cold.... three things:

a) Are you literally talking straight out of the fridge and into the oven?

b) What is the difference if you don't give the dough the two hour rise before it goes into the fridge and instead it just goes straight in - then comes out the next day and goes straight into the oven?

c) When you bake 'from cold' I'm assuming in every case that the dough went into the fridge shaped to bake. Is this true? Or... do you sometimes take it straight out of the fridge in a bulk state, shape it, and immediately bake it? If so - what are the differences that you have noticed?

Thanks!

Kevin

[kevinnoe]

Thanks for the info.  Of course I do mean the amount of preferment - I'll always call the leavening agent that is mixed into the final dough the "levain" or leaven to keep from getting confused.

Three additional questions.

1)  Is your levain,  after its twelve hour fermentation,  at a typical ripe and lively stage - quite tenacious and,  roughly,  having doubled in size?  Or... alternatively, does your 12 hour fermentation result in a levain that is almost overripe and not on its way up,  but a little on the way down?  Clearly from the photos your chef is very very ripe - ripe to the point of separation and long since past its youthful state.  Is this true of the levain also?

2)  When you say you bake from cold.... :

  - I'm assuming  that the dough went into the fridge shaped to bake.  Is this true?  Or... do you sometimes take it straight out of the fridge in a bulk state,  shape it,  and immediately bake it?  If so - what are the differences that you have noticed between shaping before it goes into the fridge and shaping after?

OK - before you respond,  I went back and read your demonstration once again.  It appears that you are not quite going straight from the fridge to the oven as there is about 20 minutes of shaping and so forth before it hits the oven.  This also answers the question of whether you shape before or after it goes into the fridge - clearly after in the demo.  So my sense is that now,  since that demo was posted a while back,  you have improved your system by including an additional 2 hour proof which you have been referring to,  and that it doesn't make that much difference whether that 2 hour proof happens before or after it goes into the fridge. Is this true?

If so,  what does the additional 2 hour proof give you - better rise and structure?  Now that you have added the 2 hour proof,  are you still having the best results by shaping after it comes out of the fridge,  or do you now shape before it goes into the fridge allowing you to go straight from the fridge to the oven?

3)  Since I haven't experimented with either processor mixing or 9% protein flour - I'm just wondering what condition the dough is in once it is mixed.  Does 40 seconds total really result in a dough with a clearly developed gluten structure?  You say it windowpanes nicely,  but I guess since I've never tried it,  it seems hard to believe.  The combination of 40 seconds and ony 9% protein sounds to me like you are making biscuits!  Clearly though,  from you photos,  it worked.  Can you just describe the feel of the gluten in the dough once mixed a bit more?

Thanks!

Kevin

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[jackal10]

Two additional questions.

1)  Is your levain,  after its twelve hour fermentation,  at a typical ripe and lively stage - quite tenacious and,  roughly,  having doubled in size?  Or... alternatively, does your 12 hour fermentation result in a levain that is almost overripe and not on its way up,  but a little on the way down? 

The chef has been on the fridge for anything up to month since the last baking, so its dormant and separated into layers. Its just a source of culture.

The levain is at about its peak or a little past - the stiff dough will have doubled but not collapsed until disturbed.

2)  When you say you bake from cold.... three things:

      a) Are you literally talking straight out of the fridge and into the oven?

Yes. Its in the bannetone in the fridge, and gets taken out, inverted on to the peel, slashed and then in the oven.

      b) What is the difference if you don't give the dough the two hour rise before it goes into the fridge and instead it just goes straight in - then comes out the next day and goes straight into the oven?

Not as well risen and a finer grain in the crumb. The bulk fermentation seems to give bigger holes.

      c) When you bake 'from cold' I'm assuming in every case that the dough went into the fridge shaped to bake.  Is this true?  Or... do you sometimes take it straight out of the fridge in a bulk state,  shape it,  and immediately bake it?  If so - what are the differences that you have noticed?

Yes, the bread is shaped and in bannetons or a couche in the fridge, I've not tried retarding at the bulk stage. The dough gets very tender and more liquid the longer it proves as the acid reacts with the starch and , and shaping at that stage would knock a lot of the gas out.

I've also not had much sucess letting the dough warm up out of the fridge for an hour or two. I think the outside gets overproved, and not much happpens to the centre. The best results I get are with a straight 2 hour bulk ferment then shape and then 2 hour proof. This is for my sourdough at 85F. Yeast is about 4 times faster. Very nearly as good (and much easier) is retarding instead of the 2 hour proof, but you need to be careful about slashing.

3)  Since I haven't experimented with either processor mixing or 9% protein flour - I'm just wondering what condition the dough is in once it is mixed.  Does 40 seconds total really result in a dough with a clearly developed gluten structure?  You say it windowpanes nicely,  but I guess since I've never tried it,  it seems hard to believe.  The combination of 40 seconds and only 9% protein sounds to me like you are making biscuits!  Clearly though,  from you photos,  it worked.  Can you just describe the feel of the gluten in the dough once mixed a bit more?

I now mix in the food processor for about 2 minutes, until the dough picks up on the blade ands then releases. Following the research on the Chorleywood Bread Process I'm aiming for 11 W h/kg energy input into the dough. The dough is almost liquid at that point, but stiffens up quite quickly as the gluten bonds reform and it gets shaped.

You can make excellent bread with no kneading at all - its time and hydration that develop the gluten, not mechanical work. The intensive mixing is more to do with oxidation. The 2 minutes deliberately over processes the dough to weaken the gluten structure. Baguettes were traditionally made with low protein flour, and indeed the bread was developed to make use of such flour, since that is best suited tot he French climate. The disadvantage is the bread stales quickly, which is why traditionally it was baked and bought daily or even several times a day.

[kevinnoe]

Thanks for this info. I have a lot to think about. I have had only mixed success straight out of the fridge. I have had, on two occasions, stunning success with a process of stretching and folding on the 1/2 hour after it comes out of the fridge. Normally this goes on for about 2 hours to 2 1/2 hours depending on how active the dough is. The trick is handling it gently each time and not degassing more than necessary. It feels more like moving the air pockets around and restretching the surface. I'm guessing that this might also improve the problem you are describing with the outside overproofing but the middle not doing much if you try a little proofing post fridge. This way it all gets mixed through and warms up in the middle as well.

I know it sounds odd, as you would think I would be destroying the internal texture, but on the two occasions when I got it just right - it was absolutely stunning - open crumb - wildly diverse - carmelized deeply - sweet in that incredible bread way. Best bread I ever tasted. In these cases they had both been refrigerated immediately after the dough was mixed - no bulk proofing at room temperature - only the cold retardation for about 20 hours. Then, as I said, pull it out - 2 hours roughly of shaping and folding and then into the oven. BOOM! Bread!

I'm trying another loaf like this tomorrow morning. We'll see.

Kevin

[Dom W]

Kevin,

It is interesting that you raise this question now, as I have been experimenting with Peter Reinhart's recipe in the last couple of weeks, as well as a sourdough version of it.

Here is my current schedule - as posted on the sourdough Australia website.

http://www.sourdough.com.au/forum//viewtopic.php?t=591

I have been playing around with two different things - Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne, and some of the techniques discussed in the Jim Lahey recipe in the New York Times.

This is the result 'Pain au levain a l'ancienne', a sourdough version of the Reinhart recipe at 80% hydration with almost no kneading.

Day 1 evening

Starter 10g (22%)

Water 25g (56%)

Flour 45g (100%)

Day 2 morning

Starter 60g (60%) (a little less than all of the above, so you can put some aside)

Water 60g (60%)

Flour 100g (100%)

Day 2 evening

Dough:

Starter 200g (40%)

Water 425g (85%)

Flour 500g (100%)

Salt 10g (2%)

Dough is mixed briefly, then put straight in the fridge for 24 hours. Then fold at hourly intervals for 3-5 hours (depending on how warm a day it is). Shape. Put back in fridge for 12-48 hours. Bake from cold.

I don't use Jack's food processor technique, as my machine doesn't cope with it. My current version uses minimal kneading, and as you suggest, I too stretch and fold after the initial period of retarding.

I haven't done the controlled experiment, but my impression is that the best results that I obtain have been with a longer period of folding and rising (bulk ferment) before shaping. I usually prove at room temp, so my timings are longer than Jack's, but I have followed his lead, and usually bake the dough from the fridge. Because of the enormous oven spring I have had recent success with baking this dough in a covered pot (see thread on the Jim Lahey recipe)

cheers

Dom

Edited November 25, 2006 by Dom W (log)

[jackal10]

I suspect you are getting a lot of oven spring from cold bulk fermentation simply because the dough is underproved.

About the only fermentation that is going on is in the first hour and a half as the dough cools. After that, there is very little biological activity, although the acid and the amylase will slowly split sugars form the starch. Note how red the crust and the grigne are. Most of the CO2 will also diffuse out, especially from near the crust, but the cold will allow more CO2 to dissolve in the water in the dough especially in the centre of the dough, to be driven off as the dough heats.

Thus when the dough warms in the oven, with lots of sugar for the yeast food to feed on you get lots of activity. Note also how you are getting more in the centre of the loaf which warms more slowly because of the insulating properties of the dough, so the yeast has longer to work.

[Dom W]

This weekend:

Ciabatta a l'ancienne (there's a nice muddle of languages)

the first of these was proved at room temp after shaping, the second went back in to the fridge and was baked from cold this morning.

Jack will probably tell me that the first was overproved, and the second underproved - and I am sure that he is right.

I have posted the recipe that I used, more pictures and the two different proving regimens used on my (neglected) blog

cheers

Dom

[jackal10]

That looks good bread Dom, especially the first one.

You can see from the thinness of the web that the gluten has been properly developed. So often these very wet doughs come out pudding-like - big holes, but thick claggy wet web because of improper development.

Edited November 25, 2006 by jackal10 (log)

[kevinnoe]

Dom,

So great to have another colleague out there! These are beautiful breads indeed - congratulations I have lots more to think about now as your fermentation and shaping technique shares similarities - but overall is so crazy cool I need to mull over it a bit. What a long time in the fridge - and how wonderful. The crumb of the ciabatta in particular quite resembles the two fantastic succeses that I had. I think I'm going to try your recipe exactly as you suggest and see what kind of results I get. Can I ask a quick favor. I've read through your approach, but I'm hoping for a little bit more information on the non-refrigerated fermentation times in your work - and if possible - a little description of the condition of the levain and dough at various stages. My kitchen tends to make breads move a bit faster than slower - and I tend to be guilty of overproofing already - so a couple of extra describers would be helpful.

Next time I hit it - I'll take photos and post as well. Did you find, as I have, that this crumb is more soft and supple than most other sourdoughs and that you still managed to preserve that indescribably wonderful L'ancienne sweetness?

Kevin

P.S. Thanks for contributing!

[Dom W]

Kevin,

my starter is at 60% hydration, so is a slightly sticky but firm dough after it is mixed. After 12 hours (at warm room temp) it has doubled in volume, and is much softer in texture.

I don't have a set time for proving out of the fridge - it depends on the behaviour of the dough, and also when I get home from work...

When the kitchen was warm (high 20s C) it took only 3 hours for the dough to warm up, and have a very light bubbly, airy feel to it. It takes longer when the kitchen is not so warm, and I have left the dough 4 to 5 hours (or more).

I don't have a set time for proving after that. As you will have gathered I am still trying various permutations. I have baked about 3/4 hour after shaping, 3 hours after shaping (overproved), or put in the fridge and baked the next morning.

The flavour of the sourdough pain a l'ancienne is different from the yeast version, insofar as it has an additional sourness. With a long period in the fridge this sourness tends to be more marked.

hope this helps

cheers

Dom