Foodie Kids/Fibbing Moms?

[annecros]

So many emotions play into the mother and child relationship! And people are getting tired of the kiddy challenges on "Top Chef!" I suspect those that are getting tired of the challenge, have never been challenged with pleasing the palate of a child.

You never know with kids. I was lucky that both of mine were "good eaters" and tried a bunch of different things, but that didn't mean they wouldn't assert themselves and their personalities in other areas. As an empty nester, and veteran mother and stepmother, they really will not starve, even my chicken breast and green bean stepdaughter. That was literally all she would eat until 8, not even sweets. Now she's married to a chef, and eats an amazing array of food at 27.

They are people, with their own likes and dislikes, and you can only do the best you can.

Saying all that, there is an incredible amount of external pressure on the parent that is simply unfair. Many who advise are well meaning, but just have no concept. They would mind their own business seeing an adult scarf down an order of fries, but tsk-tsk and frown seeing a child eating the same.

[Jujubee]

Brave words and -- perhaps -- true, but in my years of feeding and eating with children I have yet to find one who finds a green bean as delicious as a pizza (probably for the important reason that it is not). 

←

I disagree. I find some green beans more delicious than pizza and some green beans less delicious. And all pizza isn't equally delicious either. Salty, spicy, deep fried szechwan style green beans? I'll take those any day over pizza. My 15 month old daughter loves them too. (She loves pizza too, though she is too young to articulate which she likes better.)

I do think the preparation method matter, and frankly, most standard American preparations suck. As a kid, my siblings and I loved stir-fried chinese water spinach. But mushy frozen spinach at my friends' houses? Yuck. And my mom would cook red beans and sugar together, and then coarsely mash them up. It was sort of a homemade, less-sweet rustic version of red bean paste. Yum. Reheated canned beans in the school cafeteria? Not so much. The stems of chinese broccoli with oyster sauce at dim sum? My siblings and I would fight over that too. I think the general American attitude towards vegetables and legumes is that you only eat them because they are healthy and somehow that means they must be as plain and bland as possible or else they don't "count." I think also that Americans are much more likely to use frozen or canned vegetables which really contributes to the mushiness factor.

I'm not saying that kids will like any vegetable if prepared well, and I'm not saying they'll like it better than chocolate cake. But I think the seemingly universal American kid stage of hating your vegetables would be a lot less universal if the damn things just were prepared so they actually tasted good.

[Milagai]

Suzysushi: I think many Indian kids in early

childhood go through a "white foods"

phase - again, not all of them do, like kids everywhere, Indian kids

vary in their preferences.

My daughter who's a vegetable loving

little foodie went through a phase of only plain rice or plain chapatis please.

Nothing else on it. She got off that phase in a few months.

Never liked homemade yogurt even though it's white.

Not a huge cheese fan (touch of lactose intolerance?).

My son still likes plain ghee-rice or ghee-idlis or plain mac and cheese as his

favorites. But the full spectrum of food is there on the table

and he eats most of it, and I do expect that his palate will

"normalize" in a while.....

In his case I have had to work on him. He's not a

"natural" veggie lover like his sister. But gentle

encouragement + age is beginning to improve his

likes and dislikes. Sister I never had to do a thing with.

ITTTTTA (lots of "totallys" in that) with what Jujubee said,

which means I disagree with Busboy's preposterous

blanket statement that green beans can never be as good as pizza.

What kind of green bean dish? And what kind of pizza?

So many pizzas are yucky awful tasting (some greasy

McDominationellos whatever) and some are sublime.

Some green bean dishes are disgusting (stewed to mush with sugar? )

and some are to kill and die for.

And that's what I keep observing (as Jujubee has) that this

"vegetables are inherently inferior and kids won't eat them

unless they're lying or wierd" seems a Western myth, and

seems to rest on bad Anglo (mainstream America or UK) style

stereotypical cooking. And that "bewaquf" original article just

reprises that.

Any Italian, Thai, or other such parents on this

board who can give some evidence on kids in those food ways?

I can testify that okra is usually well liked by Indian kids

because Indian recipes typically make it crisp and tangy and not an

iota of slime anywhere.......

so the whole Western "okra=gag" concept

makes sense only in the light of lousy recipes.

Which means that this whole concept of:

bad /no taste = healthy food

good taste = unhealthy food

and

the resulting dichotomy of "if I feed my kids tasty food, then I'm a bad

parent and if I want to be a good parent I have to feed them

things they inherently cannot like"

is a bunch of nonsense that other food cultures don't deal with.

It's also true (in my experience) that many kids go through

a phase of wanting to rebel or be different from their parents

and when newly independent will eat very differently.

But with even more age, and in times of stress, will usually

revert to the "comfort foods" that they had an emotional connection

with from early childhood.

I went through that myself, never ate Indian home style cooking

for almost a decade, but with advanced age have reverted

to my childhood foods again, and actually like and crave them.....

Which is why when I'm sick I'll instantly want tomato rasam,

while someone else will ony want jook or chicken soup....

So I've "worked" a bit to connect my kids with the kind of food

I like and hope somewhere something lasts, even

as they grow to appreciate good food and cooking from everywhere......

Milagai

(don't mock my moong)

[hathor]

So, to go back on-topic: can we safely say that the article is dumb? In the sense that is was 'dumbed down', maybe played for laughs? And that this is a serious subject that would merits from serious discussion?

[Carrot Top]

Yeah, I think the article was "dumbed down" to be more easily palatable.

It also seems to me that it addresses more than one subject within the food world that would be worthy of serious discussion. It does so both directly and indirectly.

To me, it's talking about some important things but with a sweet little smile pasted on its face.

( )

[FabulousFoodBabe]

Which means that this whole concept of:

bad /no taste = healthy food

good taste  = unhealthy food

and

the resulting dichotomy of "if I feed my kids tasty food, then I'm a bad

parent and if I want to be a good parent I have to feed them

things they inherently cannot like"

is a bunch of nonsense that other food cultures don't deal with.

←

I don't feel like a bad parent because one of my kids just hates vegetables. I may have told the broccoli story before. I also don't feel like someone whose child just adores foie gras is a better parent. I don't lie about my kids' eating habits. And I do personally know quite a few women who do. Thank god for little Finster who eats only certain fancy cheeses, lots of kohlrabi, beets and kale, and "no soda or refined sugars; no pizza or sandwiches." We can always count on him to search out and consume the leftover Halloween (or Spring) Oreos.

Bad/no taste food is simply easier for some kids to eat, is all, and I don't cook like that. My family didn't either, so I adapted as I grew up. Example: I couldn't eat strong cheese until I was in my 20s, and I grew up in a mostly Italian family, where that kind of food was all around me, all the time. And no one lied about my eating habits -- it was considered a failure as a parent if your teenager wound up in jail.

[Carrot Top]

There's at least several subjects that are being addressed within the article and with the subsequent responses to it.

Questions raised:

Do different cultures have different attitudes towards the food they eat? If so, what are those attitudes? How did they develop to be the norm? Are these food norms helpful/useful to (most of) the people living within the different cultures?

Does the mass media do a good job or a bad job in terms of portraying the actual real-life "truths" about these food culture "norms"?

Do you agree or disagree that feeding a child the equivalent of "fish fingers and spaghetti" is an acceptable option as a way to live? Do you think that children in general take to "easy-tasting" or processed foods more naturally than they do to what some might consider to be more "healthy" foods?

Does how we think about food affect our daily lives, or our lives within our various cultures in any way? Beyond the simple fact that we all make decisions each day as what to eat and perhaps what to cook?

Are women responsible in fact for most of the home food preparation/family food preparation across the board in all cultures? How does this affect the food being served? And perhaps not answerable in this forum, how does that affect women in general?

And last but not least, would you like some canned spaghetti?

Edited November 11, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[srhcb]

There's at least several subjects that are being addressed within the article and with the subsequent responses to it.

Questions raised:

Do different cultures have different attitudes towards the food they eat? If so, what are those attitudes? How did they develop to be the norm? Are these food norms helpful/useful to (most of) the people living within the different cultures?

Up until very recent times, and even today in the less developed parts of the World, the "attitude towards the food they eat" is simply "will there be enough?" and the "norm" is "no".

It's a previously undreamed of luxury that an average person could afford to have much in the way of "an attitude" about food.

Does the mass media do a good job or a bad job in terms of portraying the actual real-life "truths" about these food culture "norms"?

I have to assume the mass media does about as good a job on this subject as they do with politics or economics. In other words, not very.

Even those elements of mass media devoted to food rarely venture more than one step beyond Food Channel travelogues, as anyone who peruses the posts on this forum or reads magazines like Gastronomica will have noticed.

Do you agree or disagree that feeding a child the equivalent of "fish fingers and spaghetti" is an acceptable option as a way to live? Do you think that children in general take to "easy-tasting" or processed foods more naturally than they do to what some might consider to be more "healthy" foods?

It's no secret that childrens' taste buds develop with age. Accommodating this change and educating both their palates about the physical taste of food and their minds about practical and esthetic aspects of cooking and eating is a delicate balancing act.

Does how we think about food affect our daily lives, or our lives within our various cultures in any way? Beyond the simple fact that we all make decisions each day as what to eat and perhaps what to cook?

Yes, and moreso than most might suspect. After all, as dissimilar notables as Brillat-Savarin and Tiny Tim more or less agreed that we are what we eat.

Are women responsible in fact for most of the home food preparation/family food preparation across the board in all cultures? How does this affect the food being served? And perhaps not answerable in this forum, how does that affect women in general?

Women may be "responsible in fact", (although at least in our culture not quite as exclusively as in earlier times), but perhaps not in principle?

In my own family's case, my parents came from culinarily disparate backgrounds; my being Mother second generation Serbian-American and my Father nth generation Scots/English. While my Father wasn't a fussy eater, and apreciated native Serbian delicacies, the majority of the food my Mother prepared was of the 1950's meat and potatos school, filtered through her own ethnic background and her degree in Home Economics.

In other words, she made what my Father liked.

How this affects women in general I can't say, but from my particular point of view, when my Father died, my Mother quit cooking.

And last but not least, would you like some canned spaghetti?

←

No, thank you. Although we keep little cans of Spaghetti-O's on hand for when my three year old Grandson visits and we're having something he may not find attractive at that particular point in time.

[Carrot Top]

Thank you for that thoughtful and thought-provoking post, Steve.

.......................................

Campell's Soup did so very much for Andy Warhol. I guess it is just ridiculous to think that Chef Boy-Ar-Dee canned spaghetti could do as much for anyone else, ever.

[judiu]

.......................................

Campell's Soup did so very much for Andy Warhol. I guess it is just ridiculous to think that Chef Boy-Ar-Dee canned spaghetti could do as much for anyone else, ever.   

←

Hey, it got me thru a hurricane and darn near 3 weeks without power! Not WELL, but between that, canned pineapple and tuna fish, I lived to tell about it!

[srhcb]

.......................................

Campell's Soup did so very much for Andy Warhol. I guess it is just ridiculous to think that Chef Boy-Ar-Dee canned spaghetti could do as much for anyone else, ever.   

←

Hey, it got me thru a hurricane and darn near 3 weeks without power! Not WELL, but between that, canned pineapple and tuna fish, I lived to tell about it!

←

I suppose if I had to survive three weeks on three canned items, spaghetti, tuna and pineapple would do as well as any three others?

SB (although some might assign one spot to beer )

[Kouign Aman]

All good points for discussion.

I know no one who brags about what their young child eats, in a positive way. Mostly it seems competetive to have the kid with the most limited palate. "My kid will only eat 4 things!" wins in this neighborhood.

Some days, my kid will only eat one. Cheerios for three squares a day, anyone? Other days, we discover miso soup with seaweed is a hit.

If a kid plays, grows, learns, laughs and is alert & attentive - the kid's diet cant be all bad!

What's the demonization of pizza all about? Its bread, cheese and veggie all in one. If you served tomato & cheese sandwiches, there'd be less tomato (& yet, less snark). With pizza, meat, fruit or additional veggies often join the fun.

Canned spaghetti: you can have my can, Carrot Top. I bought it, neither of us liked it. I was disappointed as I could use another "go to" meal. My emergency food for the munchkin is Italian Wedding soup (campbells). The little meatballs are fun, it seems.

White food phase... I think kids undergo a for real physiological change in the way they perceive taste as they grow. I wonder if the bland/white food phase is due to that?

I remember loving cantaloupe for years, then one day when I was ~ 6 it tasted simply awful, and did so for a couple more years, before it regained its deliciousness. I remember being sad that it didnt taste good anymore (and I remember my parent's frustration at my overnight switch).

<fixed spelling error>

Edited November 12, 2006 by Kouign Aman (log)

[Milagai]

What's the demonization of pizza all about? Its bread, cheese and veggie all in one. If you served tomato & cheese sandwiches, there'd be less tomato (& yet, less snark).  With pizza, meat, fruit or additional veggies often join the fun.

←

I don't think anyone demonized pizza - I just remember

someone posting that green beans could never be as good

(tasty) as pizza, and I thoroughly disagreed, thinking of

all the bad and good pizza I've met and the bad and good

green beans.....All depends on the execution.....

Thankfully I've never yet had to eat canned spaghetti .....

I hope fate does not send some my way now.

Milagai

[Kouign Aman]

I didnt mean demonized on this thread, but by "the world in general" , as a nutritionally sound meal.

[Carrot Top]

Sometimes when discussing issues like these, the lines can get blurred as to exactly what is being talked about.

We've been talking about "taste" issues - comparative tastes. We've been talking about quality issues, both of the foods we eat and perhaps of the lives we live as they happen to intersect with what we eat and how we go about it. (Please note: The word 'eat' is being used here rather than 'dine' because it is rather the diminutive or basic form. It is eating food that is one of our basic needs for life, and though 'dining' is certainly a pleasant addition to life in very many ways, we likely would not die if we did not dine. Again, we're talking about "taste" issues but in a slightly more rarified sense than if we were just talking about the food itself ). We've even been talking about culture issues and maybe even class issues. (Honestly, I am beginning to detest the word "issues", but nevermind. )

From my own viewpoint, the taste issues are not paramount. To each their own is my motto. Personally I do not prefer fast food, boxed food, canned food, and most particularly not frozen food. But still, I feel there is an ample place for these things in the world.

I don't prefer a cheeseburger or a pizza to a green or a mung bean, but that is just me. It seems that it would behoove me to keep my thoughts on this *mostly* to myself on a day to day basis, and not to become one of Busboy's aptly-named (to my mind) "nutritionistas". Ten points for word coinage, Busboy, and maybe even a free pizza at the restaurant of your choice. (What did you say? You want it from the best, the *most expensive pizza place* in DC?! Oh. Oh well, okay.)

Moderation in all things, yeah. That old saw.

Zealotry scares me, and I have no interest in bringing religion to the natives.

Perhaps I am foodily agnostic.

...........................................................................

I do also think that in discussing cross-cultural foods and foodways, it is always a good idea to *attempt* to not be ethnocentric, no matter what culture one originally hails from, or what current foodways we are accustomed to.

............................................................................

The article proposes the idea that fish fingers, chips, chicken nuggets, burgers, pizza (all made and served in ways that would be generally considered more healthy than not)- can all be good things to serve to children, for a variety of reasons - one of the reasons being that we live in

a culture that puts far too much pressure on women to be perfect mothers, a culture in which the prevailing view of a privileged minority is foisted upon the majority, and women’s inability to live up to impossible standards is causing them not just inordinate amounts of stress but turning them into liars.

That's the chicken nugget of contention that sticks in my own gullet.

.....................................................................................

I recently read an essay by Rachel Laudan that seems to strike some of the same notes as this article, but of course in a different tonality, as Rachel is a historian and not only forms the words on the page differently, but has the scholar's bibliography at the end of the article for those who wish to see "where all these ideas came from, anyway".

The essay is titled "A Plea for Culinary Modernism (Why We Should Love New, Fast, Processed Food)" and was published in Gastronomica (February 2001 issue). With Rachel's permission, I'm going to quote from her article:

Modern, fast, processed food is a disaster. That, at least, is the message conveyed by newspapers and magazines, on television cooking programs, and in prizewinning cookbooks. It is a mark of sophistication to bemoan the steel roller mill and supermarket bread while yearning for stone-ground flour and brick ovens; to seek out heirloom apples and pumpkins while despising modern tomatoes and hybrid corn; to be hostile to agronomists who develop high-yielding modern crops and to home economists who invent new recipes for General Mills.

She goes on to take the reader through a history of food (as much as can be provided in an article rather than a book anyway) and how food has been produced and eaten through time (or not eaten, as in the case of people going hungry from lack of food).

Another quote that struck me:

Meanwhile, most men were born to a life of labor in the fields, most women to a life of grinding, chopping and cooking. "Servitude," said my mother as she prepared home cooked breakfast, dinner, and tea for eight to ten people three hundred and sixty five days a year. She was right. Churning butter and cleaning and skinning hares, without the option of picking up the phone for a pizza if something goes wrong, is unremitting, unforgiving toil.

What may be rare pleasure to one who has the leisure to cook fine fresh things, the pocketbook to do it with, and the desire to do so may be otherwise for those who do not have these boons. It's for those women (and/or men) that my heart aches for, within this culture of "it *should* be done *this way*" that we live in. Often no time, no pocketbook, and no heart for doing this have they.

So I say, "Yaaaay!" to the idea of fish fingers, canned spaghetti, pizza from take-out and anything else, and I'll even think of these things as dressed in silk or satin. For to those who might need or want to eat them or even to dine upon them, they are not only friends, but well-dressed and pleasant ones.

[Milagai]

What may be rare pleasure to one who has the leisure to cook fine fresh things, the pocketbook to do it with, and the desire to do so may be otherwise for those who do not have these boons. It's for those women (and/or men) that my heart aches for, within this culture of "it *should* be done *this way*" that we live in. Often no time, no pocketbook, and no heart for doing this have they.

So I say, "Yaaaay!" to the idea of fish fingers, canned spaghetti, pizza from take-out and anything else, and I'll even think of these things as dressed in silk or satin. For to those who might need or want to eat them or even to dine upon them, they are not only friends, but well-dressed and pleasant ones.

←

I broadly agree with the stuff about gender and domestic servitude.

And that canned boxes of fish spaghetti are great standbys and

old friends etc.

But I don't get the view that it's an expensive leisure / pleasure

to cook fine fresh things. It's a simple skill to learn how to shop

cheaply to keep costs down, and to cook quickly and tastily.

I grew up without much domestic skills, but acquired

them soon enough when I felt I had to - it's really not rocket

science to make simple dal and sabzi (insert your cultural equivalent

here).

And when we see more and more people who don't

set foot in the kitchen because they may be intimidated

by the notion of cooking (though if they really tried it

they'd be surprised); and as a result end up with expensive,

bad-tasting, unhealthy, junk, then I *really* don't get that view.

My family does have a middle class income, but I'm pretty

concerned about keeping costs down, so I 90% buy

only produce in season, on sale, etc.

I have a huge commute to a demanding

job, 2 kids, a husband who's out of the country

1/3 of the time, and I love my leisure time, rare as it is.

So I'm shaped by the following priorities:

- eat well: it has to taste good AND be reasonably good for you -

I don't see these as being mutually incompatible goals

- don't spend lots of time making food

- don't spend lots of money!

and it's not that hard at all. It can be learned as easily

as any other skill like vacuuming or replacing a fuse.

We have some amount of junk in the house, and it's funny that I try

to demonstrate "normalcy" by saying this.

I do often use canned and frozen ingredients (e.g. some kinds of

canned beans or frozen or pre-sliced veggies, that kind of thing)

but rarely processed foods, because they don't meet my priorities

of good taste, low price, and un-problematic ingredients.

I do keep a few packages of mac'n'cheese, or frozen naans, cans of soup, etc.

for emergencies so I'm being any kind of a zealot here.

Milagai

[Carrot Top]

But I don't get the view that it's an expensive leisure / pleasure

to cook fine fresh things.  It's a simple skill to learn how to shop

cheaply to keep costs down, and to cook quickly and tastily.

I grew up without much domestic skills, but acquired

them soon enough when I felt I had to - it's really not rocket

science to make simple dal and sabzi (insert your cultural equivalent

here). 

And when we see more and more people who don't

set foot in the kitchen because they may be intimidated

by the notion of cooking (though if they really tried it

they'd be surprised); and as a result end up with expensive,

bad-tasting, unhealthy, junk, then I *really* don't get that view.

←

I don't quite "get it" either, Milagai.

*But* there are many people to whom food is not something of major importance in their lives - among the working poor, it may be that the time it takes them just to keep body and soul together, and perhaps trying to get an education in order to move forward, sucks up any energy there may be to find out more about different ways with food.

Among the middle-class here (this middle class that is enormous in size), there's something going on with status and foodie-ism that has to do with "lifestyle aspirations" sometimes rather than other things that might have to do with the actual food itself. Does that translate into good things or bad things in the long run? Both, it seems to me.

I actually have to go do some other things but later I'll post some more from Rachel's article on Culinary Modernism. Interesting stuff to muse upon.

[Daniel]

But I don't get the view that it's an expensive leisure / pleasure

to cook fine fresh things.  It's a simple skill to learn how to shop

cheaply to keep costs down, and to cook quickly and tastily.

I grew up without much domestic skills, but acquired

them soon enough when I felt I had to - it's really not rocket

science to make simple dal and sabzi (insert your cultural equivalent

here).  

And when we see more and more people who don't

set foot in the kitchen because they may be intimidated

by the notion of cooking (though if they really tried it

they'd be surprised); and as a result end up with expensive,

bad-tasting, unhealthy, junk, then I *really* don't get that view.

←

I don't quite "get it" either, Milagai.

*But* there are many people to whom food is not something of major importance in their lives - among the working poor, it may be that the time it takes them just to keep body and soul together, and perhaps trying to get an education in order to move forward, sucks up any energy there may be to find out more about different ways with food.

Among the middle-class here (this middle class that is enormous in size), there's something going on with status and foodie-ism that has to do with "lifestyle aspirations" sometimes rather than other things that might have to do with the actual food itself. Does that translate into good things or bad things in the long run? Both, it seems to me.

I actually have to go do some other things but later I'll post some more from Rachel's article on Culinary Modernism. Interesting stuff to muse upon.

←

Lets not pick on the poor.. If it werent for the poor and the starving some of the best dishes in the world would never be.. , My problem with the article is it doesnt seem like the parents are eating this canned spaghetti and crap with there kids.. Its bad enough they have to eat garbage, but they eat it alone.. Thats sad..

Edited November 13, 2006 by Daniel (log)

[Milagai]

←

I don't quite "get it" either, Milagai.

*But* there are many people to whom food is not something of major importance in their lives - among the working poor, it may be that the time it takes them just to keep body and soul together, and perhaps trying to get an education in order to move forward, sucks up any energy there may be to find out more about different ways with food.

Among the middle-class here (this middle class that is enormous in size), there's something going on with status and foodie-ism that has to do with "lifestyle aspirations" sometimes rather than other things that might have to do with the actual food itself. Does that translate into good things or bad things in the long run? Both, it seems to me.

←

Edited November 13, 2006 by Milagai (log)

[Kouign Aman]

Sometimes when discussing issues like these, the lines can get blurred as to exactly what is being talked about. 

We've been talking about "taste" issues - comparative tastes. We've been talking about quality issues, both of the foods we eat and perhaps of the lives we live as they happen to intersect with what we eat and how we go about it. (Please note: The word 'eat' is being used here rather than 'dine' because it is rather the diminutive or basic form. It is eating food that is one of our basic needs for life, and though 'dining' is certainly a pleasant addition to life in very many ways, we likely would not die if we did not dine. Again, we're talking about "taste" issues but in a slightly more rarified sense than if we were just talking about the food itself  ). We've even been talking about culture issues and maybe even class issues. (Honestly, I am beginning to detest the word "issues", but nevermind. )

←

Right o. I was apparently stuck back in this conversation, concerning taste.

I am convinced that this kind of attitude has perpetuated the

whole "kids don't like vegetables" myth of the Western world.

Kids don't like bad cooking, and neither do adults.

Kids like things that taste good, and if their adults cook

well and act as if vegetables are normal food, then the

children will follow along.

Re bragging and the burden on moms, i question whether the exotic food lying is as prevalent as the article suggests, because as prev noted, "highpoints" in this burb go to the mom who's kid eats the least variety. Probably ties into the class thing.

Nevertheless, there is undoubtedly a lot of pressure on moms to "be it all".

ciao.

[Carrot Top]

Lets not pick on the poor.. If it werent for the poor and the starving some of the best dishes in the world would never be..  , My problem with the article is it doesnt seem like the parents are eating this canned spaghetti and crap with there kids.. Its bad enough they have to eat garbage, but they eat it alone.. Thats sad..

←

It's possible that I've done a very poor job of expressing myself, Daniel, but if you read what I've posted so far, my sympathies indeed have been with the poor as well as with several other groups.

But the poor of yesteryear that created some of those great dishes you hint at are not the poor of today, in ways. Those dishes were created for the most part in agricultural economies that produced certain items that certain groups within the economy then had access to. Neccesity being the mother of invention, and human beings being a peculiarly inventive breed, and one of those groups being the woman in the kitchen with what was sitting before her that needed to be made into a meal, some absolute marvels were wrought.

I'm not sure that I read in the original article that children were eating canned spaghetti and crap *alone*, but it may be there by inference. What bothers you most about that scenario - the fact of the "canned spaghetti and crap" that is being eaten by kids or the fact that kids are eating alone, or that the parents are eating something else. . .(?) I'm curious to find what seems the worst to you in this picture. . .

[Carrot Top]

But there are all the reports on poverty --> poor eating --> poor health;

how grocery stores in poor US neighborhoods use their refrigerated

sections to stock beer rather than produce; and urban poor

are different from rural poor who at least grow/raise some amount of food

in their yards, etc. 

So it's the people who can least afford it who eat the bad cheap

food and develop bad health. 

←

Perhaps. And I've seen grocery stores in both poorer rural and urban neighborhoods that did not have the buying options in terms of many items that its average middle-class equal would have.

But as far as developing bad health from food, *if* what you are alluding to is obesity, I'll have to say that I've seen as many gourmands walking round the streets with what used to be called avoir-dupois as I've seen poor people of the same shapes who are assumed to be without the means or access to "finer food".

And as far as the "health food" types, they often may be thinner, but often also appear depressed or otherwise weedy to me.

Most of the people I've happened to see in my own sphere of life who do maintain their shape and their health seem to do so by some form of physical fitness regimen.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[Carrot Top]

Re bragging and the burden on moms, i question whether the exotic food lying is as prevalent as the article suggests, because as prev noted, "highpoints" in this burb go to the mom who's kid eats the least variety. Probably ties into the class thing.

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Could be so. Yet another thing to worry about.

[Daniel]

Lets not pick on the poor.. If it werent for the poor and the starving some of the best dishes in the world would never be..  , My problem with the article is it doesnt seem like the parents are eating this canned spaghetti and crap with there kids.. Its bad enough they have to eat garbage, but they eat it alone.. Thats sad..

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It's possible that I've done a very poor job of expressing myself, Daniel, but if you read what I've posted so far, my sympathies indeed have been with the poor as well as with several other groups.

But the poor of yesteryear that created some of those great dishes you hint at are not the poor of today, in ways. Those dishes were created for the most part in agricultural economies that produced certain items that certain groups within the economy then had access to. Neccesity being the mother of invention, and human beings being a peculiarly inventive breed, and one of those groups being the woman in the kitchen with what was sitting before her that needed to be made into a meal, some absolute marvels were wrought.

I'm not sure that I read in the original article that children were eating canned spaghetti and crap *alone*, but it may be there by inference. What bothers you most about that scenario - the fact of the "canned spaghetti and crap" that is being eaten by kids or the fact that kids are eating alone, or that the parents are eating something else. . .(?) I'm curious to find what seems the worst to you in this picture. . .

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Obviously what bothers me most is, how I interpret it, was the fact that kids are eating alone..I looked at it like they are feading there children, not themselves.. But I could be wrong..I mean canned spaghetti is pretty gross, but for me it shows a break down of a family leaving a kid to eat alone.. Ronald Regan said "All great change in America starts at the dinner table.." I guess this means both bad and good..

I also agree with you about the poor of yester year and the poor of today.. I believe that the poor back in the day of the Depression or in other times in our history did not have opportunities even if they were hard working people.. The poor of today in this country could be considered a lot more lazy and apathetic then the people who legitimately lacked a fair shake to better themselves.. But before I start a fight about how there are some poor people who are hardworking and everything else, I understand, I am speaking in general about the poor.. Considering todays Economy verses ones through out our history, I.E Great Depression, or Racism, Classism, or Discrimination in general the poor of today have chances that the poor of the past would have dreamed of.. For Milagai to say that there isnt good food choices in poor nieghborhoods because the refrigerated

space goes to beer (though I do a lot of food shopping in poor neighborhoods).. Says to me, they are stocking beer because there isnt a huge demand for meat.. I blame the customer, not the person providing a product to a willing market..

Edited November 13, 2006 by Daniel (log)

[Milagai]

Perhaps. And I've seen grocery stores in both poorer rural and urban neighborhoods that did not have the buying options in terms of many items that its average middle-class equal would have.

But as far as developing bad health from food, *if* what you are alluding to is obesity, I'll have to say that I've seen as many gourmands walking round the streets with what used to be called avoir-dupois as I've seen poor people of the same shapes who are assumed to be without the means or access to "finer food".

And as far as the "health food" types, they often may be thinner, but often also appear depressed or otherwise weedy to me.

Most of the people I've happened to see in my own sphere of life who do maintain their shape and their health seem to do so by some form of physical fitness regimen.

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No, I don't mean obesity, or only obesity.

I was thinking of general nutrition overall,

though filling up on poor-quality, empty calories

must play a role. The link between socioeconomic

status and nutrition is firmly established, scientifically

speaking, and comprises all sub-issues (micronutrients,

obesity, etc.).

And I don't get the crack about "health food types"

Who do you have in mind? What do they eat?

Please dont start the list with "moong beans"

or "tofu" because that will

spin us right back to the beginning of this whole thread.....

I guess I'm asking for a little cultural translation here.....

Nowadays, no-one seems to do the hard physical labour

of previous generations, so maybe only the better off

can afford to carve out time and money to exercise?

Milagai