Minimalist No-Knead Bread Technique (Part 1)

[annecros]

I wonder how many loaves of bread have been baked and consumed at home because of this New York Times article. I know of three people in my immediate circle of family and friends that have never baked a loaf of yeast bread in their lives, who are now on their second or third loaves.

I'm baking two loaves at a time in the runup to Thanksgiving, one in cast iron the other in enamel on cast iron. I seem to be getting a slightly shinier finish on the cast iron loaves and faster browning on the enamel, but otherwise no decernable difference except for the shape.

[SusanGiff]

I've been making tiny changes with each loaf (I've probably made 6 or 7 by now). Yesterday, I dialed the oven up to 500 instead of my usual 450; the loaf went into a Lodge cast iron dutch oven. The top was gorgeous--brown and crackly--but the bottom burned so badly I had to cut it off before eating. Anyone else have this problem? Any way to avoid it? Might it be prevented by using enameled cast iron instead? I might have left the loaf in too long, but I got the sense the burning happened pretty early on, since the top didn't get black.

FWIW, I've topped a couple of these loaves with a scattering of sesame seeds--as Borat would say, "Very nice."

Susan

[annecros]

I've been making tiny changes with each loaf (I've probably made 6 or 7 by now). Yesterday, I dialed the oven up to 500 instead of my usual 450; the loaf went into a Lodge cast iron dutch oven. The top was gorgeous--brown and crackly--but the bottom burned so badly I had to cut it off before eating. Anyone else have this problem? Any way to avoid it? Might it be prevented by using enameled cast iron instead? I might have left the loaf in too long, but I got the sense the burning happened pretty early on, since the top didn't get black.

FWIW, I've topped a couple of these loaves with a scattering of sesame seeds--as Borat would say, "Very nice."

Susan

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I think you are right. When the lid comes off the enamel, the top is more uniformly brown. Perhaps the light enamel has some convective properties that the dark cast iron does not? My cast iron loaves stay in longer in order to brown the top, and just now comparing the bottoms, the cast iron loaf definitely has a darker bottom.

Somebody with more experience around here might be able to explain to us the science.

I haven't ventured away from the 450 degree oven, but perhaps the cast iron was too close to the elements in the oven? I don't know, just guessing.

Edited November 21, 2006 by annecros (log)

[hazardnc]

I have made this bread three times already. Thus far, I have not tried any other flour other than bread flour (Pillsbury) and corn meal to coat the towel for the last rise.

The first time I made the bread, I cooked it at 500 F in my le Crueset Dutch oven. It was very brown after 30 minute, and I overcooked it a bit after removing the lid. The second time I lowered the temp to 450. This worked fine, but I felt the interior was a bit underdone. Yesterday, I cooked it at 475 and I was quite pleased. Since I will be using this loaf for turkey dressing, I have not yet tasted it, but it looks beautiful.

Someone above mentioned that this recipe will make home bakers out of a lot of people, and I have to agree. I recently began using The Bread Bakers Apprentice, and I love that book. It made me more succesful at baking than ever before. But this recipe is quick (except for the rise time) and it produces a product that rivals what I can get locally.

I haven't read through all the messages on this thread to see how others have experimented, but I am excited about the prospect of experimenting. Has anyone yet tried to make hard rolls with this?

[annecros]

I have made this bread three times already.  Thus far, I have not tried any other flour other than bread flour (Pillsbury) and corn meal to coat the towel for the last rise.

The first time I made the bread, I cooked it at 500 F in my le Crueset Dutch oven.  It was very brown after 30 minute, and I overcooked it a bit after removing the lid.  The second time I lowered the temp to 450.  This worked fine, but I felt the interior was a bit underdone.  Yesterday, I cooked it at 475 and I was quite pleased.  Since I will be using this loaf for turkey dressing, I have not yet tasted it, but it looks beautiful.

Someone above mentioned that this recipe will make home bakers out of a lot of people, and I have to agree.  I recently began using The Bread Bakers Apprentice, and I love that book.  It made me more succesful at baking than ever before.  But this recipe is quick (except for the rise time) and it produces a product that rivals what I can get locally. 

I haven't read through all the messages on this thread to see how others have experimented, but I am excited about the prospect of experimenting.  Has anyone yet tried to make hard rolls with this?

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I want to do rolls as well! Maybe start with a pull-apart type of thing? I've been wondering how to shape the rolls.

[Fromartz]

Here's a sourdough version -

- made biga with starter, 50 percent hydration, let rise 17 hours

Mixed dough

- 78 percent hydration with mostly bread flour

- 15 percent biga in total dough

- 7 hour first rise (couldn't let it go all the way because it rose too much too quickly, so next time will probably cut down sourdough percentage)

- rest, shape (note: that 15 minute rest Lehay requires is CRUCIAL, IMHO)

- 9 hour retard in refrigerator

- 3 hour rise at room temperature

- 15 minutes covered Le Cruset pot at 480

- 30 minutes uncovered at 450

This seems like a lot of work but it fits my schedule. Made the biga at 10 pm at night. Mixed dough at 3 pm next day. Shaped loaves at 10 pm that night. Out of refrig at 7 am the following morning and baked at 10 am...

Results

- crust was perfect

- inside crumb a little moist (I will raise heat next time)

- great taste

- nice bubbles

[Abra]

For those who are having underdoneness problems, I really got a better loaf by taking it to 210 than only 205. A thermometer is your friend here.

I'm going to try a loaf for Thanksgiving with roasted garlic folded into it. I know there's one in BBA that people use - any suggestions about adapting that to this technique?

[Pontormo]

Since the thread is incredibly long at this point I am going to summarize some of the feedback I've read thus far for selfish reasons and for the use of readers also new to this thread.

SYNOPSIS OF FEEDBACK

1) More salt. The published article specifies 1 1/4 t.

2) For second rise, a greased bowl and naked dough work, too.

3) If you prefer a thinner crust, remove the lid before 30 minutes pass.

4) Technique is easily adaptable to a variety of leavening agents, flours and additions.

5) Internal temperature of finished loaf should reach 210 F.

6) The ideal oven temperature is closer to 450 F (MB) than video's 500 F.

7) Recipe is scaleable; 1/2 recipe works beautifully in 3-quart casseroles.

Explanations:

2) At least one baker finds the floured towel a bit of a hassle, resulting in sticking, tearing or scary, uneven plop into the Dutch oven. Just turn the sufficiently slick bowl containing the shaped dough upside down over the heated casserole.

3) Jackal10 posted photographs of sliced loaves with extremely dark, thick crusts and large holes which he finds less appealing than the thinner crusts of a traditionally baked bread. Abra's tastes differ.

4) Simply monitor degree of hydration, e.g. adding more water when using WW flour, to reach the consistancy of the dough made during your first attempt. For a sweeter bread, dissolve sugar into water when putting dough together, allowing water to cool to around 70 degrees F. To be added later: citations of posts on using sourdough and other types of starters.

5) There are complaints about damp results. As one baker observed, this effect can be avoided by waiting until loaf has fully cooled before slicing. Checking for the internal temperature may be the best solution since quite a few loaves end up with a "moist" crumb" (Fromartz).

6) However, opinions differ broadly on this. Some prefer 475, others using sourdough or modifying the recipe in different ways think that higher temperatures would be better.

* * *

My dough will be ready for its second rise some time early this evening (put together at midnight).

I will come back to this post and edit it several times to add more points, attribute comments to their authors, and supply findings from posts I have not had a chance to read yet. I'll post my own results separately since this first effort will probably follow the published instructions rather closely. To make this post useful, feel free to send a PM with an equally pithy summation of feedback you consider important and I'll gladly add it before my opportunity to revise this post has ended.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[Dianne]

My second loaf is out of the oven and cooling for dinner. This time I used a little less water than the first time and found the risen dough a little easier to fold and shape.

I also used a deep cast iron pot this time. I don't know which change had the most effect, but I have a beautiful looking loaf. I got a lovely oven spring and nice crust crackle sound as it cooled.

[cookman]

Since the thread is incredibly long at this point I am going to summarize some of the feedback I've read thus far for selfish reasons and for the use of readers also new to this thread. 

SYNOPSIS OF FEEDBACK

 

2) For second rise, a greased bowl and naked dough work, too. 

2) At least one baker finds the floured towel a bit of a hassle, resulting in sticking, tearing or scary, uneven plop into the Dutch oven.  Just turn the sufficiently slick bowl containing the shaped dough upside down over the heated casserole.

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Does letting the dough rise in an oiled bowl change the texture of the final crust?

[jgm]

The dampness was because you cut into your bread too soon.  When the Flour becomes hydrated and then cooks it becomes a gel.  When baked, that gel needs time to set.  Cool your bread for at least 45 minutes after baking and you will have a much better result.  This also allows the bread to develop its final flavour.

Carry on!

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Do you have suggestions as to what I can do with myself during that 45 minutes? Never in my life have I mustered 45 minutes worth of self-restraint, and doing so with the aroma of freshly-baked bread in the house is unthinkable! While I'm sure that what you say is true, how does one get through that 45 minutes?

[annecros]

The dampness was because you cut into your bread too soon.  When the Flour becomes hydrated and then cooks it becomes a gel.  When baked, that gel needs time to set.  Cool your bread for at least 45 minutes after baking and you will have a much better result.  This also allows the bread to develop its final flavour.

Carry on!

←

Do you have suggestions as to what I can do with myself during that 45 minutes? Never in my life have I mustered 45 minutes worth of self-restraint, and doing so with the aroma of freshly-baked bread in the house is unthinkable! While I'm sure that what you say is true, how does one get through that 45 minutes?

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It is a hard thing.

Mow the lawn, rake the grass, change the oil in your car, go grocery shopping for the week, play catch with a kid. Remove yourself.

[annecros]

Since the thread is incredibly long at this point I am going to summarize some of the feedback I've read thus far for selfish reasons and for the use of readers also new to this thread. 

SYNOPSIS OF FEEDBACK

 

2) For second rise, a greased bowl and naked dough work, too. 

2) At least one baker finds the floured towel a bit of a hassle, resulting in sticking, tearing or scary, uneven plop into the Dutch oven.  Just turn the sufficiently slick bowl containing the shaped dough upside down over the heated casserole.

←

Does letting the dough rise in an oiled bowl change the texture of the final crust?

←

Wondering as well. I haven't seen any mention of a greased bowl on the thread, but think I saw one in the video.

[dockhl]

Since the thread is incredibly long at this point I am going to summarize some of the feedback I've read thus far for selfish reasons and for the use of readers also new to this thread. 

SYNOPSIS OF FEEDBACK

 

2) For second rise, a greased bowl and naked dough work, too. 

2) At least one baker finds the floured towel a bit of a hassle, resulting in sticking, tearing or scary, uneven plop into the Dutch oven.  Just turn the sufficiently slick bowl containing the shaped dough upside down over the heated casserole.

←

Does letting the dough rise in an oiled bowl change the texture of the final crust?

←

Wondering as well. I haven't seen any mention of a greased bowl on the thread, but think I saw one in the video.

←

I didn't use a greased bowl....I used floured Tupperware. Was just fine...........

[skyflyer3]

Since the thread is incredibly long at this point I am going to summarize some of the feedback I've read thus far for selfish reasons and for the use of readers also new to this thread. 

←

Thank you Pontormo, thank you! Very helpful for us waiting until the holiday weekend to give it a first go. I can't wait!

[djyee100]

to cookman:

I mentioned using an oiled bowl in my post of 11/19. That's what I always do. I oil the bowl lightly. I don't think it makes any difference in the crust. The crusts in my breads are thin and crackly like French baguette.

to SusanGiff:

Cast iron tends to hold in heat, which can result in overcooking and burning. I suggest you use the 450 degree temperature in the printed recipe (as opposed to the 500 temperature in the video).

As for burned bottoms: Sometimes you can move the bread to a higher oven rack to put less heat on the bottom; but then the top gets more heat and will turn browner.

Sometimes if I am troubleshooting a bread I will move the bread higher up in the oven if the bottom is getting too brown; or I will lower the bread in the oven if the top is getting too brown.

to everyone:

Does this recipe have legs. I received an email from a breadbaking friend and he's cooked this recipe twice since I last heard from him (he's up to a total of 3 tries). He's already planning what to do for bread #4.

Edited November 22, 2006 by djyee100 (log)

[Pontormo]

It sounds like Rice Krispies!

The crackling was intense as the loaf was removed from the oven. My observations thus far:

1) Flour counter lightly? Ha!

It may be different on stainless steel, but despite comments about how liquid this was, I was not prepared, being more accustomed to adding flour to the bowl when dough is in the state mine was in after about 20 hours, not pouring it out on the counter. Fine and easy to control especially after watching the video in which JL advises you to pat it down, then fold it. Still, there was watery residue on the bottom of the Pyrex bowl and a lot of warm moisture in the air from simmering stock exacerbated the "problem".

Breeze to handle, fold over and let rest, but after 15 minutes of resting, once plastic was lifted, the dough had absorbed all the flour on top and on the bottom. Stuck to counter a bit, though that, too, easy to remedy. Therefore, I ended up incorporating quite a bit more flour by sprinkling surface twice, the second time to shape the loaf.

Verdict: I don't think it would be a bad idea to put waxed paper on the counter and flouring it before dumping out contents of the bowl.

2) Will try to eliminate the floured towel perhaps next time, though I am curious and wonder why some of us had soggy patches on the bottom of our towels, while most posts don't mention a bad clinging effect.

I suspect I overcompensated for the fear that the dough would spread out if I left it just on the counter, wrapped in a single towel. (I should have tried it anyway since the loaf really is shaped once it hits the hot pot.) So, I put the wrapped dough inside a different glass bowl. The glass, in turn, encouraged moisture to build and when I unwrapped the towel, a sizeable amount (1/3 cup?) was stuck to overly floured towel. I scraped that off and put that on top of my loaf, sort of like a Sumo wrestler's topknot. Fine. Spread into a free-form, rustic flourish. So, I will also try eliminating the bowl during attempt number three.

3) Trust your nose

Ten minutes after I took the lid off the Dutch oven, I could smell the loaf in the other room. Since the top was such a light color when I got my first peep, I decided to wait five more minutes. By then, top looked great, but bottom has a couple of black patches that are better for pizza than bread.

Verdict: See if I can raise the rack in the oven, i.e., if the Dutch oven will still fit. Also:

4) Double the recipe for my Dutch oven (6 quart?), or at least move up to 4 1/2 to 5 cups of flour and so on. Loaf looks beautiful, but many of the slices will not be very tall. Others seem to have noticed the same thing.

I'm looking forward to trying it in the morning. The crust does look amazing.

ETA: I just read the post right above this. Seems my first attempt is in keeping with the experience of others, given the advice my resolutions echo.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[annecros]

I found hard rolls here:

http://not-too-shabby.net/eats/?p=90

This person just tented a muffin pan with aluminum foil. They look great.

[Pontormo]

First, I am extremely pleased. The crust is the best I've ever baked, not too thick at all. The cut loaf resembles nothing I've ever baked before, but instead, some of the best loaves I've purchased. Chewy texture is a delight.

BUT: I can see where Jackal10 is coming from in regards to the crumb.

Sorry I don't have a digital camera, but after a first rising of 20 hours and second of 2 1/2, I find there are just too many extremely large holes that twist to form tunnels throughout the loaf. This is essentially ciabatta. I'd prefer a more compact slice, as beautiful as the glossy cavities are.

I also find the loaf a little damp. Not annoyingly so, but I wonder what to do about it next time, besides check for an internal temperature which I did not. If I left the uncovered loaf in for more than 15 minutes, the bottom crust would have been inedible.

One thing I might try is not heating the lid to lower the overall temperature. I'm not sure.

Has anyone with an enameled Dutch oven tried baking theirs at a temperature lower than 450 F?

One of the reasons my loaf charred a bit on the bottom was that I overfloured my towel. (The kitchen seems coated with a fine, white dusting.) Excess flour landed on the hot surface of the Dutch oven and burned.

As for toast? Just lightly golden, spread with butter, it would make a Quaker out of Pierre Hermé.

[SusanGiff]

First of all, Pontormo, thanks for the synopsis. Very helpful. And to others, thanks for suggestions of moving the pot. I think I'm going to stick with 450 or 475 from now on.

And get this! This morning I took a closer look at the teeny tiny measuring spoon I'd been using for the yeast. It turns out I've made something like 6 delicious breads with just an eighth of a teaspoon of yeast, not the 1/4 teaspoon the recipe calls for. Number 7 is rising now with the full amount. Will it make any difference?

Also, I'm definitely going with the oiled bowl from now on--it worked great for me, unlike the floured towel, which was an enormous mess and actually ruined a few pair of socks when I threw it in the machine. Domestic life: such a trial.

Susan

[cajungirl]

2) Will try to eliminate the floured towel perhaps next time, though I am curious and wonder why some of us had soggy patches on the bottom of our towels, while most posts don't mention a bad clinging effect.

←

I have found that rice flour (not glutinous) on the towel works really well. Though some of the moisture still leaches onto the cloth, there is no sticking. I don't use it on the counter though, I just use wheat flour and a bench knife for my folding.

[Dianne]

I keep plopping my formed and risen loaf in to the pot still on the parchment I let it rise on. I don't try to turn the loaf over into the pot. I slash the top of the loaf instead. The paper gets brown but does not burn and the bottom crust is a lovely golden colour. And there is no flour mess.

[Abra]

Pontormo, try going back to 18 hours and 2 hours - your bread may just have been proofing too long. The loaf I did in enameled cast iron was 30 minutes with the (pre-heated) top on at 450, then 15 minutes with the top off. That took it to 210, and it was done.

Ok, everybody, put a digital instant read thermometer on your holiday wish list right now! And right after that, a good kitchen scale. If you don't cook and bake with weight instead of volume yet, you are going to be so thrilled with the difference!

[devlin]

And get this! This morning I took a closer look at the teeny tiny measuring spoon I'd been using for the yeast. It turns out I've made something like 6 delicious breads with just an eighth of a teaspoon of yeast, not the 1/4 teaspoon the recipe calls for. Number 7 is rising now with the full amount. Will it make any difference?

Susan

←

It may rise a little faster, and if you're really sensitive to the taste of commercial yeast, you may notice a slight change in flavor. If you're satisfied with the smaller amount, though, I'd stick with that. As far as I'm concerned, the less yeast the better. Since I've switched to sourdoughs, commercial yeast lends an unpleasant flavor to breads that lingers and overpowers the dough.

[Lapin d'Argent]

Has anyone with an enameled Dutch oven tried baking theirs at a temperature lower than 450 F?

←

Sorry, I can't answer this question, but I can answer a related question nobody has asked yet : Can you make this bread if you don't have an enameled cast iron or cast iron or corning ware or heavy pottery vessel?

Answer: Yes, if you have a 10 qt All-Clad Stainless Dutch Oven.

Made it twice, both times with excellent results. First time with all bread flour, germ restored (from a local natural food store); second time with 1 cup of KA white WW sub'd in. Second time I also increased the salt, as suggested by others here. Proofed for 18 hours and then 2 hours. No serious problems with sticking, although I used plenty of extra flour. I used a 450 oven, cooked for 30 minutes with the lid on and finished for 15 with the lid off.

Sorry no photos; the crumb was very nice with good holes that weren't too big. I got good oven spring, especially considering how over-sized the pot was for the loaf. The closest thing I can compare it to is a local brand we have here in the greater Boston area called Iggy's; the flavor wasn't nearly as good, but the crumb and the crust were all that!!

I had no idea it was possible for mere mortals, with a minimum of effort, to achieve something so sublime.

I suspect that the key to real flavor, as well as great crumb and crust, is a natural starter, as others have indicated. That's my next project.

But overall, I love the simplicity and convenience for such great results. Thanks, everyone, for all sharing your experiences and suggestions.

- L.