eG Q&A with Paul Liebrandt

[docsconz]

Here, check this out:

http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361_r1.html

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Now that is something to chew on! There might be a lull in this thread unless we head in a slightly different direction.

[Nathan]

I've just got around to this thread -- it's interesting to see the conversation that moved (I think not unintentionally) in the direction of Walter Benjamin, Kant (cf. Critique of Judgment), Gotthold Lessing and even Longinus.

The discussion of aesthetics was, of course, once a large part of western philosophy (and of some Asian schools as well)...this hit a hiatus in the twentieth century with the advent of logical positivism and has now seen a sharp resurgence among serious philosophers. (of course, as is the nature of academia...literature and art departments became enthralled with the children of the logical positivists during the 80's and 90's and are only now escaping....but there tends to be a 30-40 year delay for philosophical trends to reach literate and art departments.)

in aesthetics there has always been a creator/performer distinction...with the recognition that some performances can be, in and of themselves, art. the obvious analogy here is music: what makes a great pianist, a great violinist...etc. is the way they insert individuality and nuance into the performance.

take two pianists...playing the same score...one of them takes the Prokofiev approach -- treating the piano as a percussive instrument -- the result on the listener will be very different than the same piece played by the other pianist.

ultimately, I think we all internally, and even subconsciously, hierarchize performers into three categories:

a. those whose performing is so sublime and original that it constitutes artistry of its own.

b. those whose performances are technically correct...but no more than that...i.e. performances which are ultimately simulacra of what the creator originally devised.

b. performances which just suck. (i.e. Bocelli has neither originality nor even technical skill....but he sells a lot of records because he's blind)

likewise with cuisine...the creation of a dish can certainly constitute artistry...while, in theory, it may be that execution could rise to that level as well.

whether it does, I think, is something worth discussing, even by those not trained in aesthetics.

[tan319]

Whew!

Some interesting things going on here...

A couple of things strike me..

The "art" notion always seems to put peoples antennea up, it seems.

Even though most of the forward thinking chefs I dig today's presentations can be and are most of the time quite breathtaking.

I think that aspect of the food can get in the way to the general public and probably to most chefs could become pretty irritating.

Does it taste great?

I was always happy to see that no matter what else was said in reviews of GILT that the reviews of the actual dinner were almost all of the time extremely positive.

If it's going to be different it almost has to be better then most everyone elses.

And fun.

It seems that more then 90% of the comments I read on the El Bulli experience is that it isn't stuffy, is in fact quite relaxed, and I was glad to see this didn't go unnoticed by you.

My two cents on that.

Chef , is there any chance that that FTV footage he spoke might turn up on your website?

It would be great to see it.

He spoke of it highly when it ran.

Also, on your website ( one of the better ones, I think) in the timeline you show books or movies and lps that were influencing your life and your work maybe?

Anything hitting you hard that way these days?

Thanks!

edited to add:

Have you read the Marco Pierre White autobiography, 'White Slave' by Marco Pierre White yet?

Thoughts?

Edited October 25, 2006 by tan319 (log)

[docsconz]

I've just got around to this thread -- it's interesting to see the conversation that moved (I think not unintentionally) in the direction of Walter Benjamin, Kant (cf. Critique of Judgment), Gotthold Lessing and even Longinus.

The discussion of aesthetics was, of course, once a large part of western philosophy (and of some Asian schools as well)...this hit a hiatus in the twentieth century with the advent of logical positivism and has now seen a sharp resurgence among serious philosophers.  (of course, as is the nature of academia...literature and art departments became enthralled with the children of the logical positivists during the 80's and 90's and are only now escaping....but there tends to be a 30-40 year delay for philosophical trends to reach literate and art departments.)

in aesthetics there has always been a creator/performer distinction...with the recognition that some performances can be, in and of themselves, art.  the obvious analogy here is music:  what makes a great pianist, a great violinist...etc. is the way they insert individuality and nuance into the performance.

take two pianists...playing the same score...one of them takes the Prokofiev approach -- treating the piano as a percussive instrument -- the result on the listener will be very different than the same piece played by the other pianist. 

ultimately, I think we all internally, and even subconsciously, hierarchize performers into three categories:

a. those whose performing is so sublime and original that it constitutes artistry of its own.

b. those whose performances are technically correct...but no more than that...i.e. performances which are ultimately simulacra of what the creator originally devised.

b.  performances which just suck.  (i.e. Bocelli has neither originality nor even technical skill....but he sells a lot of records because he's blind)

likewise with cuisine...the creation of a dish can certainly constitute artistry...while, in theory, it may be that execution could rise to that level as well.

whether it does, I think, is something worth discussing, even by those not trained in aesthetics.

←

Nathan, I think this is an outstanding post.

One way to distinguish art and craft in cuisine is the various kitchen roles. The artistry is the creation of the dish including the combination of ingredients, methods of preparation and plating and presentation. The craft is in following the devised procedure to put all of that together in the correct manner. This is a symbiotic relationship. The craftsperson may have inherent artistry, but that is sublimated to the art of the creator.

[veda]

I've just got around to this thread -- it's interesting to see the conversation that moved (I think not unintentionally) in the direction of Walter Benjamin, Kant (cf. Critique of Judgment), Gotthold Lessing and even Longinus.

The discussion of aesthetics was, of course, once a large part of western philosophy (and of some Asian schools as well)...this hit a hiatus in the twentieth century with the advent of logical positivism and has now seen a sharp resurgence among serious philosophers.  (of course, as is the nature of academia...literature and art departments became enthralled with the children of the logical positivists during the 80's and 90's and are only now escaping....but there tends to be a 30-40 year delay for philosophical trends to reach literate and art departments.)

in aesthetics there has always been a creator/performer distinction...with the recognition that some performances can be, in and of themselves, art.  the obvious analogy here is music:  what makes a great pianist, a great violinist...etc. is the way they insert individuality and nuance into the performance.

take two pianists...playing the same score...one of them takes the Prokofiev approach -- treating the piano as a percussive instrument -- the result on the listener will be very different than the same piece played by the other pianist. 

ultimately, I think we all internally, and even subconsciously, hierarchize performers into three categories:

a. those whose performing is so sublime and original that it constitutes artistry of its own.

b. those whose performances are technically correct...but no more than that...i.e. performances which are ultimately simulacra of what the creator originally devised.

b.  performances which just suck.  (i.e. Bocelli has neither originality nor even technical skill....but he sells a lot of records because he's blind)

likewise with cuisine...the creation of a dish can certainly constitute artistry...while, in theory, it may be that execution could rise to that level as well.

whether it does, I think, is something worth discussing, even by those not trained in aesthetics.

←

Nathan, I think this is an outstanding post.

One way to distinguish art and craft in cuisine is the various kitchen roles. The artistry is the creation of the dish including the combination of ingredients, methods of preparation and plating and presentation. The craft is in following the devised procedure to put all of that together in the correct manner. This is a symbiotic relationship. The craftsperson may have inherent artistry, but that is sublimated to the art of the creator.

←

it all starts tomorrow at 9.00am!!

[Jamesbchef]

Chef, can you describe what the vibe was in the kitchen of Pierre Gagnaire? How was the mind set, organization, etc.

[docsconz]

Here are a few topics in the New York Forum directly pertinent to Paul Liebrandt and his career:

Paul Liebrandt

Gilt

Avant Garde Cuisine in NYC

Papillon

[docsconz]

Also for your perusal:

Paul's website.

[AlexForbes]

hey dude

what format do you think will communicate best your vision

cheers

wg

←

The most recent posts have been very interesting, etc., but WOW - very philosophical!

So I'll keep my post simple and reiterate Akwa's question, above, and add something to it. Do you agree with those that say that New York is not nearly as receptive than, say, Chicago or San Sebastian to chefs like you, who explore the boundaries of taste and texture, take sound and smell into consideration when creating a dish, etc (the so-called hypermodernists)? Even though you do say that the food you were serving at Gilt "was not strange or weird in any way", do you fear that, when you open your own place, newyorkers will not give you the enthusiastic welcome that Grant Achatz or Homaro Cantu, for example, got in Chicago?

[docsconz]

I've just got around to this thread -- it's interesting to see the conversation that moved (I think not unintentionally) in the direction of Walter Benjamin, Kant (cf. Critique of Judgment), Gotthold Lessing and even Longinus.

The discussion of aesthetics was, of course, once a large part of western philosophy (and of some Asian schools as well)...this hit a hiatus in the twentieth century with the advent of logical positivism and has now seen a sharp resurgence among serious philosophers.  (of course, as is the nature of academia...literature and art departments became enthralled with the children of the logical positivists during the 80's and 90's and are only now escaping....but there tends to be a 30-40 year delay for philosophical trends to reach literate and art departments.)

in aesthetics there has always been a creator/performer distinction...with the recognition that some performances can be, in and of themselves, art.  the obvious analogy here is music:  what makes a great pianist, a great violinist...etc. is the way they insert individuality and nuance into the performance.

take two pianists...playing the same score...one of them takes the Prokofiev approach -- treating the piano as a percussive instrument -- the result on the listener will be very different than the same piece played by the other pianist. 

ultimately, I think we all internally, and even subconsciously, hierarchize performers into three categories:

a. those whose performing is so sublime and original that it constitutes artistry of its own.

b. those whose performances are technically correct...but no more than that...i.e. performances which are ultimately simulacra of what the creator originally devised.

b.  performances which just suck.  (i.e. Bocelli has neither originality nor even technical skill....but he sells a lot of records because he's blind)

likewise with cuisine...the creation of a dish can certainly constitute artistry...while, in theory, it may be that execution could rise to that level as well.

whether it does, I think, is something worth discussing, even by those not trained in aesthetics.

←

Nathan, I think this is an outstanding post.

One way to distinguish art and craft in cuisine is the various kitchen roles. The artistry is the creation of the dish including the combination of ingredients, methods of preparation and plating and presentation. The craft is in following the devised procedure to put all of that together in the correct manner. This is a symbiotic relationship. The craftsperson may have inherent artistry, but that is sublimated to the art of the creator.

←

it all starts tomorrow at 9.00am!!

←

On behalf of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts and Letters I am delighted to welcome one of our newest members, Chef Paul Liebrandt, who will be posting under the name "veda." Paul, welcome to eGullet!

[Fat Guy]

Chef, I'd love to get some more detailed comments from you on the food press and how it has treated you and your restaurants.

[docsconz]

I just got off the phone with Paul who is experiencing some problems with his computer at the moment. He expects to have them resolved in about fifteen minutes or so.

[tan319]

Good Morning, Chef...

For your new restaurant, do you think you'll be in a more downtown location?

Also, in my own restaurant travel, I feel like I don't see enough younger people ( 21-30) dining.

When I lived in New York City that wasn't as much of a case.

Do you think there's a way to present your cuisine in the ne plus ultra degustation way + also offer a menu more geared for the less moneyed gastronome?

Thanks again for being here.

edited to add: BB around 11:30

Edited October 27, 2006 by tan319 (log)

[docsconz]

Paul is still working on his computer issues and apologizes to anyone who may have set this time aside to be here. He will be on as soon as he can.

[molto e]

Paul:

What I was maybe not so happy with was possibly some of the decisions made on how the food was put across to the guests. People come into restaurants with preconceived ideas. Sometimes they are expecting something more or sometimes something less. The way you deliver that before they even walk in the door is very very important and maybe the way in which the cuisine was put forth to some of the guests was not a true representation of the product itself. It goes back to a situation like when somebody reads something somewhere about something else and forms an opinion around it. Some people read a film review and form an opinion on the film rather than going to see the film itself. Some of those people who did not go in to see the film might actually really enjoy that film if they did not have a preconceived notion of it. I am not one of those people obviously. I will go and try things and I will go and see for myself. I was a little perturbed by some of the ways in which the presentation of the restaurant was handled with Gilt, because I really think what we were doing, just on the food point of view, was really, really good quality. It was really very, very high level of cuisine. Everything was executed beautifully, It was flavorsome. It was not strange or weird in any way. In fact, I really took what I was doing and made it much more approachable than I think people were expecting. Maybe, again the way the restaurant was put forward, it didn’t come across like that.

So there are people that were doing this, that and the other thing, but actually it is not so much the substance, more the style. It is difficult to do unless you have full control of how it is done. I mean, you look at the best guys in the world and they have a very firm grip on how they present themselves to the general public. It really opened by mind and it really just made me think. I don’t want to be close-minded. I really want people to come and experience the product that I do. What is Paul Liebrandt about? What does he do, rather than read about him in a magazine and make their minds up. I just wish people were a little bit more open minded in that respect.

Paul: The value of proper planning, the value of being true to yourself and what you do and represent to your customers, and the value of the team, because without the team that I had in the kitchen at Gilt, I couldn’t have produced what we did there. It sounds common sense, but really it is about that. Those things are very important and I guess you know them, but you really appreciate them more when you are no longer in the situation.

Paul: The hotel in New York City. The unionized hotel in New York City. It was a very big, eye-opening experience for me. Most chefs don’t ever deal with that side of it. I am fortunate that I have an independent restaurant background, but I also think it is good to be very well-rounded as a chef and as a business person in many different aspects of this business. The work in that environment was new for me. I saw one side of the business which I hadn’t seen before.

Paul: Obviously I read stuff on Gilt on eGullet and there is a lot of conjecture and a lot of rumor so I would really like to put it down exactly as it is. The same thing that Grant (Achatz) did when he was building Alinea. He did the whole opening process, you really got to know him, the man and what he is all about. It is very important for chefs to get that across I think.

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Chef Liebrandt, how do you feel that the food at Gilt was portrayed so that the guest had a misconception of your cuisine?

During meetings with the PR people that the hotel used did you tell them that you did not feel they were portraying the cuisine at Gilt accurately?

[veda]

Paul is still working on his computer issues and apologizes to anyone who may have set this time aside to be here. He will be on as soon as he can.

←

I am so sorry everyone !!!! my airport went down(thank you time warner)

[docsconz]

Welcome back, Paul!

[ASM NY]

Allright, let's go!

Chef, will you look at the questions that were posted a couple of days ago or should we re-post now?

[veda]

Good Morning, Chef...

For your new restaurant, do you think you'll be in a more downtown location?

Also, in my own restaurant travel, I feel like I don't see enough younger people ( 21-30) dining.

When I lived in New York City that wasn't as much of a case.

Do you think there's a way to present your cuisine in the ne plus ultra  degustation way + also offer a menu more geared for the less moneyed gastronome?

Thanks again for being here.

edited to add: BB around 11:30

←

I am at present looking for a downtown location,below 23rd.the idea being I do not want to do a super exspensive restaurant,I feel that somthing which is affordable is much more in tune with todays market.

[foodite]

Chef - What are your thoughts on the recent topic of copyrighting and patenting food and culinary processes?

Re: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/new-er...-recipe-burglar

[veda]

Allright, let's go!

Chef, will you look at the questions that were posted a couple of days ago or should we re-post now?

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please repost with any additional questions

[jkahn]

hey dude

what format do you think will communicate best your vision

cheers

wg

←

The most recent posts have been very interesting, etc., but WOW - very philosophical!

So I'll keep my post simple and reiterate Akwa's question, above, and add something to it. Do you agree with those that say that New York is not nearly as receptive than, say, Chicago or San Sebastian to chefs like you, who explore the boundaries of taste and texture, take sound and smell into consideration when creating a dish, etc (the so-called hypermodernists)? Even though you do say that the food you were serving at Gilt "was not strange or weird in any way", do you fear that, when you open your own place, newyorkers will not give you the enthusiastic welcome that Grant Achatz or Homaro Cantu, for example, got in Chicago?

←

i'm very interested to hear paul's reply to this post, because i think a lot of new yorkers have a skewed vision of chicago's food scene. having just spent the last year there, i might be able to shed some light on this subject as well. also, having tasted paul's food for the first time not long ago, i definitely don't see how new yorkers can be so jaded when it comes to paul liebrandts cuisine, but not when it comes to will goldfarb's? i think that new yorker's are extremely receptive to great and modern food, however you have to consider what was the typical diner like at gilt? wealthy upper east siders. of course there not going to like paul's vantage, they want food like that of aureole. so i just think that paul got a bad rap there, because he was cooking for the wrong clientel. i mean come on, it's the new york palace hotel, and the food was at new york palace hotel prices. as soon as paul gets his own venture, and does it his way, in his style, in a not-so-upper-east-side-location, he's going to fly. and he and i have discussed his plans, and i think he's going to try to open a place that's more approachable, slightly more casual, but still serious, and a bit more cost conscious for diners. i for one am very excited to see what transpires.

j.

[docsconz]

Chef - What are your thoughts on the recent topic of copyrighting and patenting food and culinary processes?

Re: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/new-er...-recipe-burglar

←

A corollary to this question would be a view towards copying another's work as discussed in Sincerest Form here in the eGullet Forums.

[veda]

Chef - What are your thoughts on the recent topic of copyrighting and patenting food and culinary processes?

Re: http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/new-er...-recipe-burglar

←

same idea as creating a signiture dish, i personally feel it is is very difficult to copyright a dish,how do you uphold the the copyright?just my opinion

[docsconz]

hey dude

what format do you think will communicate best your vision

cheers

wg

←

The most recent posts have been very interesting, etc., but WOW - very philosophical!

So I'll keep my post simple and reiterate Akwa's question, above, and add something to it. Do you agree with those that say that New York is not nearly as receptive than, say, Chicago or San Sebastian to chefs like you, who explore the boundaries of taste and texture, take sound and smell into consideration when creating a dish, etc (the so-called hypermodernists)? Even though you do say that the food you were serving at Gilt "was not strange or weird in any way", do you fear that, when you open your own place, newyorkers will not give you the enthusiastic welcome that Grant Achatz or Homaro Cantu, for example, got in Chicago?

←

i'm very interested to hear paul's reply to this post, because i think a lot of new yorkers have a skewed vision of chicago's food scene. having just spent the last year there, i might be able to shed some light on this subject as well. also, having tasted paul's food for the first time not long ago, i definitely don't see how new yorkers can be so jaded when it comes to paul liebrandts cuisine, but not when it comes to will goldfarb's? i think that new yorker's are extremely receptive to great and modern food, however you have to consider what was the typical diner like at gilt? wealthy upper east siders. of course there not going to like paul's vantage, they want food like that of aureole. so i just think that paul got a bad rap there, because he was cooking for the wrong clientel. i mean come on, it's the new york palace hotel, and the food was at new york palace hotel prices. as soon as paul gets his own venture, and does it his way, in his style, in a not-so-upper-east-side-location, he's going to fly. and he and i have discussed his plans, and i think he's going to try to open a place that's more approachable, slightly more casual, but still serious, and a bit more cost conscious for diners. i for one am very excited to see what transpires.

j.

←

I am interested in this question as well. While I think your analysis as to why Gilt might not have been as successful as it prhaps should have been rings true and as a result Paul took the fall, but I don't think that he actually got a bad rap as the vast majority of the reports and reviews that I have read were tremendously positive about his work. I have evn heard rumors to the effect that Gilt would have received two Michelin stars, but that rating was removed at the last minute when Paul was removed.