2007 Michelin New York

[Nathan]

the Michelin "Bib Gourmand" list of cheap "Inspector's favorites" is found at the end of this link:

http://www.michelinmedia.com/pressSingle/v...CH2006102349770

it is an excellent list, notable entries include:

Beyoglu

Bianca

Blue Ribbon Bakery

Cho Dang Gol

Dinosaur BBQ

Fatty Crab

Golden Unicorn (what is this?)

N.Y. Noodletown

Gum Fung (what is this?)

Inoteca

Jackson Diner

Katz's (you can rest easy FG...they included it this year)

Lupa

Momofuku

Pearl Oyster Bar

Prune

S'Agapo

Saravanaas

Snack

Soba-Ya

Sripraphai

Yang Pyung Seoul

these are really excellent picks for the visitor on a budget

[raji]

the Michelin "Bib Gourmand" list of cheap "Inspector's favorites" is found at the end of this link:

Golden Unicorn (what is this?)

Gum Fung (what is this?)

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Golden Unicorn - Probably the best of the dim sum BIG rooms

Gum Fung (what is this?) - same, in Flushing

[raji]

raji:  do you have a candidate for a more accurate list?

Zagat?  all Times 2, 3 and 4 starred restaurants?, Gayot? 

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I guess the Zagat Tops lists... it just always seems a year or two behind the times...

[Nathan]

interesting.

so they did their homework some....

[bechamel]

the Michelin "Bib Gourmand" list of cheap "Inspector's favorites" is found at the end of this link:

Golden Unicorn (what is this?)

Gum Fung (what is this?)

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Golden Unicorn - Probably the best of the dim sum BIG rooms

Gum Fung (what is this?) - same, in Flushing

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In response to sneakeater's previous comment re local non-foodies and Michelin: I recently asked a sales clerk at a local bookstore if Michelin sells well. She said Zagat outsells Michelin 5 to 1 there.

[Nathan]

Zagat? are you kidding?

http://www.zagat.com/about/about.aspx?menu=PR67

this is a better list? it's not a year or so behind the times...it's just wrong. LB is not the best restaurant in the city. maybe it was 10 years ago. GT never was. ditto for Grocery.

it is not that the Michelin list is by any means perfect...

but it is the only serious list.

[Nathan]

if Michelin actually has 20% of Zagat's market share in NY bookstores I'm sure they would be ecstatic.

[raji]

interesting.

so they did their homework some....

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You know, it's apples and oranges really - Zagat's a survey

So I guess you'd have to compare it to the editorialized lists, NY Magazine, NY Times, etc. etc. What do you think?

[Nathan]

the problem with the Times is that they don't update the stars every year. so, it's not an accurate guide...(this is especially true below the 4-star level)

as for NY Magazine, if anyone out their can ascertain Platt's methodology, well, you're a heck of a lot more astute than me. he's all over the map.

(there are some things that I'm curious about with respect to Michelin...can anyone with serious K-town knowledge tell me how good their Korean picks are?)

[raji]

the problem with the Times is that they don't update the stars every year.  so, it's not an accurate guide...(this is especially true below the 4-star level)

as for NY Magazine, if anyone out their can ascertain Platt's methodology, well, you're a heck of a lot more astute than me.  he's all over the map.

(there are some things that I'm curious about with respect to Michelin...can anyone with serious K-town knowledge tell me how good their Korean picks are?)

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What are their Korean picks? the ones on the cheap list? if so, kinda random

Edited October 24, 2006 by raji (log)

[robyn]

Zagat?  are you kidding?

http://www.zagat.com/about/about.aspx?menu=PR67

this is a better list?  it's not a year or so behind the times...it's just wrong.  LB is not the best restaurant in the city.  maybe it was 10 years ago.  GT never was.  ditto for Grocery.

it is not that the Michelin list is by any means perfect...

but it is the only serious list.

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But who wants to buy a list - particularly when you can look up the starred restaurants on line? What I am looking for as a traveler is a comprehensive restaurant guide that I can stick in my purse - and use as a reference - especially for non-big deal restaurants where I don't need reservations in advance. Like I walk out of a museum - it's lunch time - and I'm looking for a decent place within a ten minute walk. Zagat's performs this function in the US - and the Michelin Red Guides do it in Europe (not sure anyone does it adequately outside of North America and Europe). Robyn

[Nathan]

imho, Michelin does that better than Zagat.

if a restaurant is included in Michelin it is almost certainly "decent"....certainly not so for Zagat.

[robyn]

imho, Michelin does that better than Zagat.

if a restaurant is included in Michelin it is almost certainly "decent"....certainly not so for Zagat.

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I assume - but can't be sure - that you live in NY. When was the last time you went outside whatever city/country you live in for an extended trip? What was that city - and what restaurant guide did you use?

I find the Zagat number ratings quite adequate for picking "not big deal" restaurants when I'm traveling in the US. I especially like the restaurant listings by geographical areas.

I have found Michelin red guides to be very useful in Europe - but no one can tell me that that a lot of the Michelin one star restaurants in New York are better than David Burke & Donatella. I just don't think that Michelin has its act together in the US as of today. Robyn

[docsconz]

imho, Michelin does that better than Zagat.

if a restaurant is included in Michelin it is almost certainly "decent"....certainly not so for Zagat.

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I assume - but can't be sure - that you live in NY. When was the last time you went outside whatever city/country you live in for an extended trip? What was that city - and what restaurant guide did you use?

I find the Zagat number ratings quite adequate for picking "not big deal" restaurants when I'm traveling in the US. I especially like the restaurant listings by geographical areas.

I have found Michelin red guides to be very useful in Europe - but no one can tell me that that a lot of the Michelin one star restaurants in New York are better than David Burke & Donatella. I just don't think that Michelin has its act together in the US as of today. Robyn

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Unless I am hearing about a particular restaurant from someone I trust, the guide that I use when I travel is the eGullet guide Of course, one has to sift through the various opinions...but I have found that it tends to work pretty well in most cases.

[Fat Guy]

As guides go, Michelin is better than Zagat. Of course it is. The people assembling the Michelin guide have at least a modicum of experience, expertise and commitment to standards. The Zagat survey is a popularity contest with no qualifications for voting. If you try to rate culture by popularity, you get results like "Britney is better than Bach." If you have people with training doing it, you at least avoid that.

The thing is, being a better list than Zagat doesn't make Michelin a good list. It's not a good list, and that's especially sad given the massive resources behind the project. It's no accomplishment to be a better list than Zagat -- any one of us could make a better list than Zagat in ten minutes.

[raji]

Unless I am hearing about a particular restaurant from someone I trust, the guide that I use when I travel is the eGullet guide   Of course, one has to sift through the various opinions...but I have found that it tends to work pretty well in most cases.

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Agreed! No agendas. There is NO list on Egullet which is what makes it great. And once you get to know people's MO, you can get amazingly subjective info here.

[Nathan]

Robyn:

I live in NY. are there 40 or so restaurants in NY that are better than DB&D...yes, imo there are (and I've been VIP'ed out the wazoo at DB&D thanks to people in my party being certain notable individuals)

I travel on a regular basis. When I do so I consult all relevant food sources (this includes Michelin...if applicable....egullet, various regional guides and even Frommers and Fodors on occasion (I'm going to Venice, Florence and Verona next week and the advice I'm getting from EG exactly replicates the listings in Frommers))....the one thing that I never ever consult is Zagat.

[Nathan]

FG:

I agree that the Michelin list is not a great list. My only point was that is the best PUBLISHED list available.

Do I think I could put together a better list in ten minutes? Yes, of course.

However, I question whether if we put together 20 people from egullet and asked them to come up with a list of NY's top 40 restaurants that it would be any better....why? too many disagreements on the outliers. Rich would want to give the Tasting Room (at least the old version) three stars. I would want to give Sriphithai a star....etc. I'm sure someone would want to give Katz's a star -- which I would be adamantly opposed to...etc.

I really don't think that any group effort would come up with a better list.

[Sneakeater]

Oddly, if someone asked me to recommend a highly characteristic (and good) New York dining experience, davidburke & donatella would be near the top of my recommended list.

OK, back to topic. Sorry.

[bechamel]

Nathan - I genuinely understand your frustrations with the Zagat top list, especially Le Bernardin coming in #1 -- again. But compare the Zagat list with the Michelin 1-, 2- and 3-stars. Many of the Michelin starred restaurants are also on the Zagat list. So how exactly is Zagat so off the mark?

Nevertheless, I appreciate the value of Michelin immensely.

[Fat Al]

The thing is, being a better list than Zagat doesn't make Michelin a good list. It's not a good list, and that's especially sad given the massive resources behind the project. It's no accomplishment to be a better list than Zagat -- any one of us could make a better list than Zagat in ten minutes.

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Agreed. And another thing people ignore when thinking about Zagat's is that not only is it a survey, it's a bad survey. When voting in a Zagat's survey, your choices are to rate a restaurant 0-3 in the various categories. Human nature being what it is, most people are likely to give a restaurant they like a rating of 2 on that scale, so all the Zagat rating seems to really tell you is the balance of 3's versus 1's and 0's. Balancing how many (not really) random people love a place against how many absolutely hate it does not seem to me to be a very helpful way to rate a restaurant.

[Nathan]

Fat Al: well, yeah, part of the problem with Zagat is simply their mathematical idiocy

(20 is midway, not 15, in the Zagat system).

Bechamel: the problem with Zagat is that about half the restaurants in their top-ten simply don't belong there.

(and look at their #1s over the past few years....Grocery??)

Few would seriously dispute that the two and three stars in the Michelin list aren't in the top-ten in NY

(the dispute would be about what other restaurants may belong in that list).

Sneakeater: I agree that in some ways DB&D is indeed characteristic of NY dining

(at least a certain type of NY dining demographic)... and it's not a bad restaurant...but there are many better...

[bechamel]

Nathan - I agree about the mystifying inclusion of some of those places way up in the Zagat Top list, namely Annisa, Gramercy Tavern and Peter Luger (with the inclusion of The Grocery years ago as the most horrifying example). But remember the flack Michelin received last year for some of the downright dubious choices? Examples: La Goulue, Spotted Pig, Etats-Unis -- all again receiving a star in this year's guide! And look at the restaurants that are omitted: Blue Hill, Alto, L'Impero, etc.

[Nathan]

oh...Michelin has its outliers all right.

but at least they're at the one-star level. not at the top of the list!

still, take the top 40 in the Zagat overall list....I'll bet half of the inclusions are dubious....as opposed to four or five on the Michelin list.

[Luckylies]

Oddly, if someone asked me to recommend a highly characteristic (and good) New York dining experience, davidburke & donatella would be near the top of my recommended list.

OK, back to topic.  Sorry.

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Really? I keep floundering on wether to go one of these days...I keep hearing such mixed reviews.