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BryanZ

Clarifying juices and broths using gelatin

84 posts in this topic

I would have to play around with this more and read through McGee....I did, however, find a very interesting paper on the effect and causes of syneresis....let's just say it has a lot more science to it than most would need for any Molecular Gastronomy, but the short is, the effects of syneresis have a lot to do with micelles and dissolution of Gelatin molecules during swelling and shrinking, as well as the stretching and contraction of molecules and bonds (a little bit like a glutan matrix).

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I'm curious if anyone has done some more work on with this proccess, if so, do you repeat the process of clarifying with gelatin becuase my broths keep tasting very watered down and bland.

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a) Does the original stock taste bland? If so, you probably should reduce it before clarifying.

b) Did you salt correctly, stupid I know but it could be the cause.


PS: I am a guy.

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I'm bumping this thread up following an interesting article written on this topic by Harold McGee in the NYT.

Click here

I read somewhere that the gelatin should be 0.5% by weight. Does anyone know if that amount holds true for both leaf and powdered gelatin?

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OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??

So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

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OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??

  So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

I'm the one who posted those steps on ideasinfood regarding the carrot juice. I'll reproduce them here since this did work. I'll add any notes to make it very specific:

1. Cook diced carrots, once soft, puree with enough liquid.

2. Strain through fine sieve (or cheesecloth, I used a chinois and the result is an orange carrot juice).

3. Remove one cup of liquid and cool to room temp( I cooled this quickly by setting the container in cold water).

4. To the room temp cup of liquid, add .5% of gelatin by weight of the total amount of liquid.

5. Stir and let cup of liquid stand for 5 minutes.

6. Return to the rest of hot liquid and stir throughly.

7. Cool to room temp and then place in freezer to freeze.

8. Remove now frozen liquid and place in fine seive(or cheesecloth) over bowl and allow to thaw in refrigerator for 1 to 2 days.

As I said, this worked. The result was a clear liquid with a slight orange tint that tasted very much of carrot. It was very sweet as well. I have to admit that I was impatient and after getting minimal amount of liquid after 24 hours in the fridge I put it on the counter for about 4 hours and it went much quicker. Considering this was in my home and not in some restaurant, and considering this was vegetables and not meat-based I figured it was safe. I then brought the clear liquid to a boil and added some salt. It did not become cloudy. I now have the rest frozen in the freezer. I was considering making calcic/alginate ravioli's with it.

The ratio I used was .5% of powdered gelatin by weight. So if you have 1000g of carrot juice you would add(.005 * 1000) = 5g of powdered gelatin. I actually added a little more just in case.


Edited by logicalmind (log)

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This keeps popping into my head, maybe because my basil is 3 feet tall... How about a basil puree, gelled - frozen - strained Right?

then gelled again into little clear basil cubes?

and tomato cubes and parmesan cheese cubes Ok this is getting weird you could turn a whole salad into little Jello cubes :shock:

tracey


The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage

garden state motorcyle association

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OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??

  So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

I'm the one who posted those steps on ideasinfood regarding the carrot juice. I'll reproduce them here since this did work. I'll add any notes to make it very specific:

1. Cook diced carrots, once soft, puree with enough liquid.

2. Strain through fine sieve (or cheesecloth, I used a chinois and the result is an orange carrot juice).

3. Remove one cup of liquid and cool to room temp( I cooled this quickly by setting the container in cold water).

4. To the room temp cup of liquid, add .5% of gelatin by weight of the total amount of liquid.

5. Stir and let cup of liquid stand for 5 minutes.

6. Return to the rest of hot liquid and stir throughly.

7. Cool to room temp and then place in freezer to freeze.

8. Remove now frozen liquid and place in fine seive(or cheesecloth) over bowl and allow to thaw in refrigerator for 1 to 2 days.

As I said, this worked. The result was a clear liquid with a slight orange tint that tasted very much of carrot. It was very sweet as well. I have to admit that I was impatient and after getting minimal amount of liquid after 24 hours in the fridge I put it on the counter for about 4 hours and it went much quicker. Considering this was in my home and not in some restaurant, and considering this was vegetables and not meat-based I figured it was safe. I then brought the clear liquid to a boil and added some salt. It did not become cloudy. I now have the rest frozen in the freezer. I was considering making calcic/alginate ravioli's with it.

The ratio I used was .5% of powdered gelatin by weight. So if you have 1000g of carrot juice you would add(.005 * 1000) = 5g of powdered gelatin. I actually added a little more just in case.

Thanks, Logicalmind, for the detailed instructions. Does it matter what the consistency (viscosity) of the puree is before freezing? Does the puree of whatever we're trying to clarify need to be very thin (i.e. watery), or not?

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The goal here is not to filter a puree but rather a broth, hence the straining of the puree. It would call it less of a "puree" than a thick broth. You're trying to remove as much of the solid as possible before the syneresis.

As an aside, I've used up to 2% powdered gelatin with decent results. The yield is lower, however.

Logical mind or anyone who has more experience with this technique can set me straight, however.

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Thanks, Logicalmind, for the detailed instructions. Does it matter what the consistency (viscosity) of the puree is before freezing? Does the puree of whatever we're trying to clarify need to be very thin (i.e. watery), or not?

You want the consistency to be very liquid. Basically I first push the puree through a standard seive, then I push it through a chinois. The result is what I used to add the gelatin and freeze.

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The goal here is not to filter a puree but rather a broth, hence the straining of the puree.  It would call it less of a "puree" than a thick broth.  You're trying to remove as much of the solid as possible before the syneresis.

As an aside, I've used up to 2% powdered gelatin with decent results.  The yield is lower, however.

Logical mind or anyone who has more experience with this technique can set me straight, however.

Yep. I basically wanted steps starting with raw vegetables going through a puree and then through a very fine seive into basically liquid, or a broth you can call it. The pre-gelatin phase should be pure liquid to the human eye.

I can't say I have more experience than anyone, I've only done this once. Just wanted to make the steps available to anyone who wanted to try it.

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I did some playing with this back in early summer, it's in the pastry forum HERE. I've played around with other fruits and berries since then (I was really happy with the results using local wild blueberries). I'll have to try it with vegetable purees.


It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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I used this technique to clarify a gazpacho for a charity dinner I prepared last week.

Description of charity events in Heartland forum by one of my volunteers.

I was very please with the clarified gazpacho. Note in the following photogragh taken by one of my guests that the soup has already picked up some "stuff" from the other components of the dish. I don't have a photo pf the soup in the crystal pitchers from which it was poured at table.

gallery_10896_5134_27752.jpg

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I used this technique to clarify a gazpacho for a charity dinner I prepared last week.

Description of charity events in Heartland forum by one of my volunteers.

I was very please with the clarified gazpacho.  Note in the following photogragh taken by one of my guests that the soup has already picked up some "stuff" from the other components of the dish.  I don't have a photo pf the soup in the crystal pitchers from which it was poured at table.

gallery_10896_5134_27752.jpg

Beautiful dish

This would be the perfect foil for my ramblings upthread about making all sorts of savory flavored jellies, like basil or pepper. If I dont get a work assignment next week I think I will play while the produce is cheap.

Does anyone know if this works with dairy? like a cheese "broth"

T


The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage

garden state motorcyle association

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I must coax the plants a little...just made 2 dozen pesto cubes

I was thinking (dangerous) not that I even like cold poached salmon with dill...but what about a dill aspic ....

T


The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage

garden state motorcyle association

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OK...so 2 cups strained fresh carrot juice addded to .05% gelatine.....freeze...thaw in fridge w/ coffee filter will yield a clear carrot juice??

  So .05% gelatine.... is by weight of the carrot juice?

for this sort of application, i don't think you need to go through with the freeze filtering. actually, i am positive you don't, since i have applied a similiar technique and done this without the use of gelatin or freeze filtering. For clear carrot juice, all you would need to do would be strain through a chinois. then strain through a filter lined chinois, once the carrot particles are trapped in the filter (the first baine will be cloudy), put the filter over a second baine and it will clarify the juice for you. - just let it do its thing - drip by drip yielding a 'consomme' - this tech is similiar to Keller's tomato juice in his FL cookbook...

i think the interesting point of this discussion is utlizing cohesive ideas and ingreidents, buttermilk, peanut butter, etc, im gonna have to try this. pb and j consomme sounds pretty sexy to me...

n8

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Gelatin clarified broths have great appeal to non-pros like me - it kind of reminds me of the no-knead bread from the other NYT article / Sullivan in that it takes out the technique/finesse step (kneading / protein raft).

I've been wondering about:

A good technique for doing this with traditional consommé materials - is there any difference when you make the precursor broth? Is it better to reduce before or after the gelatin clarification?

Techniques for doing this with hard cheeses, e.g. WD50's parmesan broth.

Xanthan gum - how to best incorporate / opinions on how much by weight?

No heat dashi? How exactly does that work with this, how does the gelatin clarification affect the mouthfeel that you would get from the konbu?

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You just want the liquid to taste good, no lengthy reducing required.

I don't think you need to use gelatin filtration for a parm broth. I'm quite sure just filtering through a coffee liner would be fine. Again, it's a matter of getting the broth to taste right. Personally, I've never been happy with the parm waters I've ever been able to make.

Xanthan is not required for the gelatin filtration process in itself. It simply adds an unctuous mouthfeel. Your going to want to follow the normal technique for incorporating xanthan into anything, paying special attention to the fact that you're not going to want to overly agitate your consomme to prevent clouding. So sprinkle, don't dump.

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Where did I even get this idea....I should go look for a job

gallery_23695_426_333929.jpg

2 cups basil sludge

gallery_23695_426_24988.jpg

frozen

gallery_23695_426_26490.jpg

drip drip

gallery_23695_426_163282.jpg

over 1 cup of water and the sludge disk

gallery_23695_426_30811.jpg

basil aspic with diced plum tomato basil leaves and celary leaves

until tomorrow

tracey


Edited by rooftop1000 (log)

The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage

garden state motorcyle association

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As I mentioned above, I did a lot of playing around with this through the summer with fruit juices but don't have much experience with it otherwise. I decided to give it a shot with stock and have a question for the experts. I made a fairly large batch of chicken stock (about 3 gallons), added the gelatin, chilled it and threw it in a freezer in one big lump. I was planning to filter it all at once then divide it into smaller portions and I still can if necessary but my question is: could I let it melt, divide it into smaller containers, re-chill it and refreeze it or is that a bad thing to do at this point?

Tracey: That's awesome! You didn't comment on the flavor but I'm guessing since you used it for your aspic it must have been tasty.


It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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Keep in mind too that you may not need to add powdered gelatin to the chicken stock, since there should already be gelatin present in the stock. Of course, depends on the strength of the stock, but just keep it in mind.

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Actually I've been using sheet gelatin, not powdered, for all of my playing with this technique, was that wrong? It's too late to not add gelatin to this batch but your right, it probably didn't need it, I just wanted to play it safe.


It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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gallery_23695_426_30811.jpg

basil aspic with diced plum tomato basil leaves and celary leaves

until tomorrow

tracey

How did it Taste?


"You dont know everything in the world! You just know how to read!" -an ah-hah! moment for 6-yr old Miss O.

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