Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Cuisine Misunderstood


Hiroyuki

Recommended Posts

Fascinating thread ... I am a fan of Copeland Marks, who showed in his many books that a country's cuisine could show you what its history was, what its geography and agriculture were like, who it traded with (and what trade routes they used), who had conquered it, who it had conquered, what ethnic groups were present, and how it changed over time ...

Certainly, Americans (other than in Hawaii) knew very little about Japanese cuisine prior to 1950, compared to today. Personally, I have been to Japan almost 40 times in 15 years (lots of business trips LOL), and have been exposed to traditional cuisine as well as Japanese takes on other cuisines (Chinese, American -- steak), but I still view myself as a novice when it comes to truly understanding the underlying structure and logic of the cuisine.

eGullet has been a wonderful source of information, but I'm sure there are more sites ... and more we could do if we wanted to learn.

As an example, if you go to the eGullet section on Italy and Italian cuisine, there has been a marvelous experience going on for at least 2 years ... each month, a small group takes a different region of the country and studies its food ... they provide a list of recognized classic cookbooks for the region, then they describe what they are cooking ... and provide photos. What ensues is a discussion of subtle differences in recipes (perhaps based on the cookbook author, perhaps based on a family or local variation), some history of the region, and participation by eGullet members who live in the region ... each month is an incredible education in a different aspect.

The most recent links would be for Umbria (October, just started), Campania (the food of Naples) -- September, and Sicily -- August.

Perhaps we could do the same for Japan ... and learn from each other ... Is anyone interested?

JasonZ

Philadelphia, PA, USA and Sandwich, Kent, UK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JasonZ,

I love the idea of an in-depth montly look at different regions of Japan and its cuisine. I think broadening the scope beyond just one recipe is an excellent way to learn about a cuisine and the people who cook it. You learn not just the "what" but the "why" of food.

The idea has my vote.

Preach not to others what they should eat, but eat as becomes you and be silent. Epicetus

Amanda Newton

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having a large Japanese population means that there are some real Japanese restaurants which cater to Japanese in certain parts of Australia. You can find more and more Australians venturing in to broaden their perspective on what real Japanese food is.

Just out of curiosity, are most of the Japanese restaurants in Australia run by actual Japanese? Here in North America, I would say the opposite is true (most are not run by Japanese).

Baker of "impaired" cakes...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has been very interesting to read everybody's posts here on this thread!

The following is the full version of the answers that I usually give ("It's my favorite" and "I love Tokyo") when asked, "Why do you love Japanese food so much?" and "Why did you move to Japan?" It's a convoluted explanation, but for me, this is why I feel that Japanese cuisine is worth learning. But, of course, aside from personal reasons, I think that learning about Japanese food has tremendous value!

I was lucky enough to experience a lot of Japanese home cooking growing up, but unfortunately, those experiences were only to be had during trips to Japan. Aside from miso soup, rice and the occasional curry rice, I rarely ate a true Japanese meal (rice with okazu, tsukemono, etc) at home. When I was young, I just assumed that I ate Japanese food in Japan and ate everything else when I was at home. I knew that I couldn't get any Japanese family style cooking in restaurants or at home and was okay with that because I probably assumed that the family get togethers and family style meals in Japan would be a never changing, permanent fixture in my life. Now that my Japanese grandparents are gone and visits when the entire family is together are few and far between, I feel nostalgic for those times. I feel like during those experiences was when I probably felt the closest to my Japanese side. In my opinion, if you lack a working knowledge of how Japanese food is woven into daily life, I think that it's impossible to say that you possess more than a rudimentary understanding of the culture. On top of that, if you can't speak the language, then it is even more impossible to not only develop a true understanding of the culture, but also to not feel as though you are more than a mere outsider looking in. I can fumble through a conversation in Japanese, but am nowhere near fluent. I can whip up some basic dishes, but I don't consider myself in the same league as people who intuitively know how to put together a full Japanese meal on a daily basis, above and beyond just adding a Japanese touch to a meal that is for the most part, not Japanese. I consider this as having two strikes going against me. Even though I "feel" Japanese (whatever that means, I know), I feel that these are major impediments to breaking through that wall and getting into that inner circle where maybe I will "feel" more Japanese and be perceived as maybe at least 50% Japanese! It sounds silly, but I think that there may be some people out there who can identify. It is an odd position to be in, to feel very close to a culture to which most people see you as an outsider. I would be a millionaire if I got a dollar for every time I've been told that I don't look Japanese. Outside of family, very few (if any?) people in Japan would even begin to consider me as Japanese. I don't really blame them because who would believe an odd looking person who claims, in barely recognizable Japanese, that they are Japanese?!? I decided long ago that the only way to prove to myself that I tried my best to overcome these two obstacles was to up and move to Japan, so here I am now writing now from my very small Tokyo apartment! Too bad this thing called a job cuts into my time to accomplish the above goals.... :cool: Before I came to Japan I learned by reading as many cookbooks that I could get my hands on and by reading all the posts on eGullet. Now that I'm here, I watch a lot of cooking shows on TV and I have continued to build a collection of cookbooks. I spend a lot of time in department store basements, looking at ready made dishes and studying contents of bentos. And now that ingredients are so easy for me to get, I experiment as much as I can, while trying to create a recipe base that I will be able to use after I go back home. My focus has been on trying to create entire Japanese meals that are balanced nutritionally, with okazu that actually complement one another. My goal is to be able to do this with less effort because at this point, it still requires a lot of planning and if I end up at the store without my list I feel lost!

Furthermore, I know that my children will not have the same kind of childhood experiences in Japan that I had so I want to somehow find a way for them to have a connection to Japan through at least the food. (Hmm, maybe I should be married before I talk about dreams for my kids, but I can't help it! :raz:) So, for me, learning about Japanese cuisine is not only a personal quest to deal with an identity crisis :laugh: , but also an effort to keep cultural ties for future generations.

And yes, to answer the initial question, I do think that Japanese cuisine is misunderstood in America! If it wasn't, I could have just gone to the local Japanese restaurant for culinary lessons. I know that it is impossible to duplicate the cuisine exactly in a different country because the full experience of eating the food of a culture is more than just what ends up on your plate, but when eating at most Japanese restaurants leaves me with the deepest longing to just buy a plane ticket and fly to Japan for the real deal, I think that it's fair to say that the cuisine is not well understood. But, I agree with many of the other posters who have said that most cuisines are misunderstood outside of their native lands.

I am always curious to learn why people are motivated to learn about Japanese food, so keep the stories coming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Furthermore, I know that my children will not have the same kind of childhood experiences in Japan that I had so I want to somehow find a way for them to have a connection to Japan through at least the food.  (Hmm, maybe I should be married before I talk about dreams for my kids, but I can't help it!  :raz:)

You bring up an interesting point. My wife is Japanese and I'm a second-generation Japanese-Canadian (parents both emigrated from Japan). Although my kids are much less culturally isolated than I was thanks to widespread media access and cheaper airfares, I believe it's very important to expose them to "everyday Japanese home cooking," as opposed to fusion Japanese or the latest recipe in Elle a Table. So we're much likely to keep our Japanese dishes simple and traditional rather than jazzed up/experimental/fusion. That means a simple potato korokke vs. a modern one stuffed with, say, the addition of pork/shiso/kimchee.

Although it's important to expose children to a wide range of preparations and ingredients, there are only so many days of the week that we can devote to Japanese cooking. So we'd like to make sure our kids know what a basic potato korokke or gyoza is, vs. some modern variation filled with any number of ingredients or using non-traditional sauces.

None of this would be an issue if we were living in Japan, where they would have plenty of opportunities to experience basic, everyday Japanese food from nimono to curry rice, korokke, etc.

Edited by sanrensho (log)
Baker of "impaired" cakes...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even though I "feel" Japanese (whatever that means, I know), I feel that these are major impediments to breaking through that wall and getting into that inner circle where maybe I will "feel" more Japanese and be perceived as maybe at least 50% Japanese! It sounds silly, but I think that there may be some people out there who can identify.

Yes, I can certainly identify with your current situation, but I know it was my parent’s strong desire to raise us all to be who we were wherever we might find ourselves. It was a nice idea, but it was not realistic because you just can’t deprogram that part of your genetics. As one writer once said, we (the children) are the sum of us, -- meaning my parent’s life experiences and their parents, and so on and so on. Regardless of what boundaries you see, forget the inner circle and just enjoy this journey you are taking. You’ll get there. Food is such a great way to recover, restore and heal the past and best of all, it doesn’t judge you. I also happen to believe that people who genuinely love food need to share it – isn’t that why were all here? :smile:

JasonZ:

A hearty vote for that idea… but that’s easy for me to say, sitting here safely ensconced in my armchair. I loved going through the various pictures people posted of various “ebiken” in the regional topics. They made me daydream; What a great way to show regional specialties and what a great excuse to write a book – travel throughout Japan on the train, catalogue the various ebiken then get off the train and check out the regional foods – all on the publisher’s tab! ….sigh… just dreaming…. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So is it shallow that North Americans don't appreciate this? Not really. I mean, why would they?

Just to clarify, I'm not calling North Americans shallow for not having a knowledge of regional Japanese cuisine. I'm saying that their knowledge of Japanese regional cuisine is shallow. There's a difference there, the former being judgmental and the latter a statement of fact.

Quite right. My mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having a large Japanese population means that there are some real Japanese restaurants which cater to Japanese in certain parts of Australia. You can find more and more Australians venturing in to broaden their perspective on what real Japanese food is.

Just out of curiosity, are most of the Japanese restaurants in Australia run by actual Japanese? Here in North America, I would say the opposite is true (most are not run by Japanese).

It depends. Most mainstream Japanese places (sushi trains, weird combo sukiyaki/ other Asian food restaurants) in major cities are usually run by Taiwanese, Chinese and Koreans. That's basically the norm, with a few Japanese waitresses on staff.

The city I'm in at the moment only has a few Japanese run lunch places, a bbq place and a few overpriced restaurants.

But if you go to the Gold Coast or Cairns it's totally different. The Gold Coast area attracted 192,943 Japanese tourists this year. There are lots of Japanese living and working in those places permanently or as a working holiday. There you can find lots of restaurants that cater to all the tourists - all Japanese staff and customers - a couple of ramen places, izakaya, places where you can find a proper Japanese breakfast, supermarkets etc.

If you were just walking around in normal areas I'd say it'd be pretty much the same as North America - the usual "Japanese" or "Japanese/ something else" restaurants run by non-Japanese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having a large Japanese population means that there are some real Japanese restaurants which cater to Japanese in certain parts of Australia. You can find more and more Australians venturing in to broaden their perspective on what real Japanese food is.

Just out of curiosity, are most of the Japanese restaurants in Australia run by actual Japanese? Here in North America, I would say the opposite is true (most are not run by Japanese).

It depends. Most mainstream Japanese places (sushi trains, weird combo sukiyaki/ other Asian food restaurants) in major cities are usually run by Taiwanese, Chinese and Koreans. That's basically the norm, with a few Japanese waitresses on staff.

The city I'm in at the moment only has a few Japanese run lunch places, a bbq place and a few overpriced restaurants.

But if you go to the Gold Coast or Cairns it's totally different. The Gold Coast area attracted 192,943 Japanese tourists this year. There are lots of Japanese living and working in those places permanently or as a working holiday. There you can find lots of restaurants that cater to all the tourists - all Japanese staff and customers - a couple of ramen places, izakaya, places where you can find a proper Japanese breakfast, supermarkets etc.

If you were just walking around in normal areas I'd say it'd be pretty much the same as North America - the usual "Japanese" or "Japanese/ something else" restaurants run by non-Japanese.

In Sydney, it's a bit of a mix. Some "japanese" restaurants are fully Japanese run, a lot of "sushi train" places are korean. There are areas of Sydney that have more Japanese students and residents than others.

Maliaty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you understand Japanese cuisine?

I'm not sure. I know more about Japanese cuisine than my family, friends or co-workers. Most people around me are totally clueless, but I can't blame them. Learning about Japanese cuisine requires some effort and the lack of resources is not helping either. There are some very good Japanese restaurants available in a radius of 80km from where I live, but they are still rare. You've seen my humble attempts and the reason why I've share them here wasn't completely selfless. I actually hoped for constructive criticism or validation. Anyway, I still got a lot to learn, to try, to cook, to share and I'm looking forward to it.

Christian Z. aka ChryZ

[ 1337 3475 - LEET EATS ] Blog

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As an example, if you go to the eGullet section on Italy and Italian cuisine, there has been a marvelous experience going on for at least 2 years ... each month, a small group takes a different region of the country and studies its food ... they provide a list of recognized classic cookbooks for the region, then they describe what they are cooking ... and provide photos. What ensues is a discussion of subtle differences in recipes (perhaps based on the cookbook author, perhaps based on a family or local variation), some history of the region, and participation by eGullet members who live in the region ... each month is an incredible education in a different aspect.

The most recent links would be for Umbria (October, just started), Campania (the food of Naples) -- September, and Sicily -- August.

Perhaps we could do the same for Japan ... and learn from each other ... Is anyone interested?

Thanks for your idea and links. I'm all for it, but I can see a problem. For that to happen here in the Japan Forum, we need a specialist. We really have to recruit one! In the meantime, I'll see what I can do. I'd like show you some local dishes here in the Uonuma district in the Niigata prefecture in the near future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I woke pondering this topic this morning. Gives people a good idea of how involved I am with this subject when it's the first thought of the morning even before I think of my first cup of tea.:biggrin:

I have a long way to go in understanding Japanese food. I have yet to taste natto or pickled squid guts so I have no idea how I would react to something so alien to my environment.

I think one of the more difficult things for Westerners to accept is the Japanese breakfast that is so very different than a Western breakfast.

I go most days to Yasuko-sans site to see what they have eaten that day. It is interesting to me since she usually does traditional food with a few foreign dishes only occasionally.

I'll know I'm making progress when I can make a Japanese dish without going to a recipe book

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Culinista wrote here

-Few people understand the internal logic of Japanese cuisine, particularly the importance of rice and seasonality. Japanese restaurants in the west serve the same menu all the time.

[. . .]

Do you understand Japanese cuisine?

Any comments will be much appreciated.

I would tend to agree with Culinista.

The reasons I can see would be lack of direct access to Japanese cooking as practiced in the home, and language. Someone mentioned this earlier in the thread. Each language has ways of conveying meanings that are not easily translated into other languages, and it is a theory that language drives thought and understanding.

Here is a link to site that I enjoy for learning more about Japanese foods and seasonality, in a direct and useful manner: The Seasonal Japanese Kitchen.

The great thing about life is that each day offers the chance to learn new things about every aspect of the world (including ourselves! :smile: ). A neverending opportunity.

( :laugh: Ha! I just re-read this to proofread and had to laugh at that last sentence. Obviously I meant to say "neverending" in terms of things to learn, not time to learn them in. :raz: )

Edited by Carrot Top (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As an example, if you go to the eGullet section on Italy and Italian cuisine, there has been a marvelous experience going on for at least 2 years ... each month, a small group takes a different region of the country and studies its food ... they provide a list of recognized classic cookbooks for the region, then they describe what they are cooking ... and provide photos. What ensues is a discussion of subtle differences in recipes (perhaps based on the cookbook author, perhaps based on a family or local variation), some history of the region, and participation by eGullet members who live in the region ... each month is an incredible education in a different aspect.

The most recent links would be for Umbria (October, just started), Campania (the food of Naples) -- September, and Sicily -- August.

Perhaps we could do the same for Japan ... and learn from each other ... Is anyone interested?

I was trying to do something similar with the meibutsu (regional specialities) thread

Some of the threads (well mostly Niigata :biggrin: ) have done well because we have someone living there to post various things. I would really love if these threads could become something like the ones in the Italy forum...

Kristin Wagner, aka "torakris"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...