Is food better than it used to be?

[Jonathan Day]

I think that quality and selection -- in some countries at least -- have travelled a "U" shaped curve. Having grown up in the US in the 1960s my sense is that I started toward the bottom of the "U", so things have improved greatly since then.

Selection I can't see. It seems straight up to me, no dip in a "U." What's the theory behind a selection "U"?

You are right. Good catch. If I really felt like arguing the point I would say that it depends on what you mean by selection. If it means "ability to get all sorts of products, whether or not out of season, in one place" then we have clearly travelled straight up the curve, no "U" involved.

If it means "availability of interesting varieties, high quality local products, differentiated products as you travelled across the country" then as other posters have observed the standardised and easily-transportable have often edged out the local and interesting. I once drove across the US (San Francisco to Boston) and was struck by the sameness of the products in grocery stores. Iceberg lettuce and hard tomatoes everywhere. This must have been better at one point.

It's improving again with the movement toward heirloom seed varieties, Old Spot pigs, different chicken varieties, etc.

[Toby]

When we first started selling heirloom tomatoes at the greenmarket in NY in 1996, hardly any of the customers knew what they were, or what heirloom produce in general was. Today I rarely have to explain what they are. The greenmarket program in NY has done a good job of educating as well -- they work with public schools in leading class tours of children of all ages through the market. I think the farmers' markets through the US have done an enormous amount to improve quality of food -- once you've tasted good produce or good eggs, chicken, meat, you know the difference.

[bushey]

when was the last time any of you had a really good apple? strawberry?

This morning I had a fantastic strawberry that was grown and picked locally (though not by me). And our local roadside stand has in the first new apples of the year, the Early Macs, which are also grown locally and are just the perfect balance of tart and juicy. Just samples one the other day. As we get into the fall, the local orchard features some older varieties of apples -- heirloom apples? -- such as Cox's orange pippin that are delicious.

[bushey]

Kraft Macaroni & Cheese today is worse than it was years ago because the scientists at Kraft have screwed with it so many times to get the cost down.

I'm really disappointed if this is true.

I had leftover baked Kraft Macaroni and Cheese casserole for lunch and it was pretty tasty. Definitely a throwback to childhood. The powdered cheese mix is definitely inferior to the deluxe version with processed orange cheese goop, but it's much cheaper and will do in a pinch.

On the other hand, at my local supermarket I can choose from a variety of imported cheeses far superior to that available a few years ago. With some Keller European style butter, artisanal pasta and fresh breadcrumbs made from Iggy's bread I can (and do) make a wonderful homemade mac-and-cheese casserole at home. But the kids would still want Kraft's.

[Fat Guy]

I'm hearing apples, tomatoes, and strawberries. Are there any other fruits or vegetables that have arguably gone downhill? I was just at the supermarket and noticed about a hundred of them that seem to be better today than in the past. There was, for example, an extensive selection of fresh mushrooms -- at least eight varieties. Fresh herbs -- maybe eleven kinds and I don't think that was something you saw in supermarkets in days of yore. The citrus selection was quite good -- it occurs to me that citrus on the whole has probably been improved over the course of the past century. The cucumbers and eggplants were great. Corn -- unless you live on a farm these new sweet varieties are superior to the old corn that had to be boiled out in the field to avoid massive deterioration. And lettuce, forget about it -- sure there was iceberg but there was fresh, beautiful Boston, red leaf, Romaine, and various other things like endive, arugula, and such. I think it's too easy to say that industrial agriculture has done everything at the expense of flavor.

[LaNiña]

berries. so often when i buy blueberries, they taste bad. and rasberries are almost always spoiled, at least the bottom layer...maybe that has to do with freshness, but it's SO common...

[Bux]

I'm hearing apples, tomatoes, and strawberries. Are there any other fruits or vegetables that have arguably gone downhill?

Keep the U curve in mind. I've seen a real turn around in my lifetime. Food awareness has increased tremendously, but the raw materials have not yet come back to top quality on the scale with which they were once available. As a kid I and local plum tomatoes that were incredible. I remember the farm on the Brooklyn Queens border when I used to go with my father who was in the wholesale produce buisness. We'd bring home a basket, but those same tomatoes were available all over Brooklyn in average greengroceries. Today it's a big deal to go to GT or Blue Hill for their tomato salads or maybe to the Greenmarket ofr heirloom varieties, but that used to be everyday stuff in August in Brooklyn. Unfortunately there are still people who think things are better just because they can get fresh tomatoes in January--fresh, but tasteless.

[Fat Guy]

Okay, another vote for tomatoes. I think we've established a tomato quality "U" curve. Or at least maybe we have -- were all those heirloom varieties commonplace back when you were a kid, Bux, or were there just a couple of varieties of nice ones? Either way, can we generalize from tomatoes, apples, and berries?

[Shiva]

But the "average schlub in an industrialized country" spends just as much (or more) on unhealthy, nasty food as he or she could spend on an equivalent amount of wholesome, delicious food, don't you think?

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

On apples, berries, etc., there are some inherent differences here. Apples are a stored product. The science of storing apples has advanced in the past 20 years or so to the point where you can get a good if not great apple 12 months a year.

Berries are very fragile, don't ship well, and don't store well at all. Some cultivars of blueberries have been bred for shipping toughness over flavor, but they're pretty easy to spot (big, oblate, and hard) so I just avoid them. In fact, I just consider berries, peaches and other fragile fruits seasonal and enjoy them while I can and pass them up the rest of the year.

[macrosan]

I think it's dangerous to hark back to childhood memories Children don't have the discernment of adults, specially for fresh food, and I think nostalgia too easily creeps in. I'm old enough to have been an adult 30 years ago, and I definitely see some significant worsening in fruit and vegetables.

I think the determining factor is distance of shipment. Soft fruit (so plums, peaches, apricots, cherries, berries) generally have to travel long distances to reach supermarkets, or even central wholesale markets in non-growing countries. So they're frozen, heavily chilled, whatever, and as Bux suggested they may even be bred for the quality of long-lastingness, just so they can be shipped long distances taking weeks, and be stored.

I also suspect that many fruits and vegetables are chemically treated to ensure they look great on the inside but are crap on the inside. It's also notable that many fruits and vegetables seem to "go off" very quickly once you get them home. I used to get a case of Cox's orange pippins from an orchard in Kent at the start of the season, just keep them in the garage adn eat them in perfect condition for a month. Ten years ago, I had to switch to buying the case from my local greengrocer. I did it for two years and stopped, because they didn't last more than a few days before they went pappy, then brown, inside.

On the plus side, I think avocadoes, bananas and grapes are much better than they used to be. I'm surprised, but maybe grapes travel well without special treatment. Bananas always have, but the variety and flavor seem better than they were.

I live on the edge of Kent, traditionally one of England's premier fruit-growing areas. As a boy I used to pick hops and Victoria plums to earn holiday money. Many of those orchards are now closed down. Even here, it is very difficult to find fresh produce (by which I mean produce sold in the shops within a few days of being picked). It is ironic that my best local greengrocer gets all his produce from Covent Garden, which is twice as far away as an excellent local fruit farm. He says that cost of purchase is a small issue. The bigger problem is that he does one-stop shopping at Covent Garden, and delivery costs are much lower (the farm doesn't have a delivery service). So he sells 'frozen' Cox's apples which have travelled 15,000 miles from New Zealand instead of fresh ones from the farm 12 miles away

[oraklet]

and the difference in those coxes is significant, right macrosan?

as is the difference we seem to remember, because once in a while you accidentally find something that actually tastes as it is supposed to, so that you can check your tasting ability! and at least in denmark, we still seem to be at the bottom of the u-curve.

today, we have a wider choice than 20 years ago, but fewer peak experiences!

and bushey, i'm yellow with envy for your strawberries.

[Steve Plotnicki]

All these responses are just proving that the food industry (especially the produce aspect of it) went through a period of consolidation and the quality suffered. To say that producers grew different specimens of fruits in order to ship them long distances omits the salient fact that only a large, well capitalized business could afford to undertake such a project. It is not something that would be the baliwick of small growers. And on the other side of the equation you had a consolidation amongst the supermarkets and buyers from places like A & P needed to buy tonnage to keep their shelves stocked.

What happened in the food industry is what happens in every industry that finds itself in a monopolistic position and the quality suffers as a result. Some smart guy comes along with a better product and segments the market. The supermarket chains, feeling they pushed all their competition out of business, thought that they could dictate what quality produce the consumer would have to buy. They calculated that there was more business selling tomatoes to everyone in their region then there was to be had by selling better quality tomatoes to those who would be willing to pay for them.

So they decided to choose a standard of quality that was affordable to everyone and could be shipped long distances. They completed neglected the customer who would be willing to pay more money for top quality tomatoes and who lived in a place where they could be shipped. They could have carried both types of tomatoes and made everyone happy. But they probably calculated that the trouble wasn't worth the projected profits so some accounting type probably nixed it. That's what happens when decisions about products like food are made by bean counters and not big fressers. But because of their mistake, you now have lots of small producers and local gourmet market chains and green markets that are taking advantage of the people who the supermarkets alienated. Fortunately they still do a good job on things like corn flakes.

Macrosan - You should go out and buy Paul Richardson's book on food in England. I can't remember the name. But the first chapter is on Kent and what happened there and how the farms were abandoned for hops and how it all happened.

[John Whiting]

Macrosan - You should go out and buy Paul Richardson's book on food in England.

It's _Cornucopia: A Gastonomic Tour of Britain_ and it's out now in paberback. It's the best book about the present state of British cuisine, both the good and the bad.

[macrosan]

Oraklet you're right. Those Cox's used to be the best fruit of any type I ever ate. Now even the best are bland.

{b]SteveP and JohnW thanks for the reference. I'll go and buy it tomorrow.

[Fat Guy]

All these responses are just proving that the food industry (especially the produce aspect of it) went through a period of consolidation and the quality suffered.

Although I don't agree with every aspect of your analysis (you don't seem to have strong familiarity with what the better supermarkets like Wegman's are doing; let me know if you ever get a chance to check one out), that statement is fundamental. You can also make it on a worldwide level: There are now 5 billion people to feed and it simply can't be done without agribusiness/consolidation or a radical alteration of diet (i.e., no meat). The question is whether consolidation necessarily means worse product in the long term. The goals of durability and longevity are admirable. When they're prioritized over flavor you can of course get a situation where, in the past 1% of the country had fresh nectarines for a few weeks a year and now 99% of the country has fresh nectarines every day of the year but they're not as good. But with the primary goals conquered perhaps competition based on flavor will become a priority. I think, ultimately, stores like Balducci's (leaving aside the question of Balducci's decline) are extreme examples: They are the best of the best; the small stores that can compete with the big chains. They also function in a unique urban environment that is difficult for large supermarkets to handle. But most small stores have about as much chance of competing with big chain supermarkets as small bookstores have of competing with Barnes & Noble. And I'm not a person who thinks Barnes & Noble is bad. You mentioned beforehand that the reason Citarella is so good is that there are people there watching the place like a hawk. But with the exception of the owners, anybody else can be hired. And if your store is ten times as big you can offer a higher salary. At Stew Leonard's in Yonkers there are cute little biographies of some of the employees posted near their stations. The fresh mozzarella guy has trained with the best, and that's why the cheese there is better than at any Manhattan gourmet market I've visited.

[Wilfrid]

Barnes & Noble may not be bad. But the effect of its expansion on smaller specialist stores is bad. B& N have lots of books, but they lack depth in some subject areas. Now Posners has gone, I am relying on the St Marks Bookshop - or, increasingly, on the internet.

Sorry, was that irrelevant?