Do you haggle at the farmers market?

[moosnsqrl]

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but as I read it, I'm thinking of the very true examples of the people haggling over five cents a pound for beets, and chuckling as they drive away in their BMW.  These people would never dream of telling the golf club that they'll give them $175K for a membership, instead of the going rate of $200K, and that they'll take a 75% equity instead of 25%. 

Grocery stores have more room to negotiate; I wonder if hagglers have tried it there?

To me, people who argue about a farmer's prices don't respect how hard the job is, what they are up against, and that makes me very sad.  It's the same in a lot of businesses where everyone is an expert. 

Again:  Quantity discounts are different.  Reduced price for really bad stuff is different.  I personally don't want to wait until the end of the day to buy something in case I get a deal.

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Yep, that's more akin to my experience with hagglers, but I'm sure it varies from market to market.

I have to say, though, that grocery stores really don't have much more room to negotiate. Mainstream groceries' margins are in single digits for the most part. When I worked for a chain of natural markets (rhymes with Mild Goats) what we were instructed to do vis a vis mark-up versus the quality of the product we received (here in the midwest, at least, where it had spent ~5 days on a truck) was pure fantasy. Although I would still agree that, as they can spread losses across departments within the store and further across many stores, they are still in a better position to offer a discount if there are extenuating circumstances (volume, quality, charitable event, etc).

[CharlotteM]

I don't haggle for all the above reasons BUT last week, 3 out of 4 ears of corn I had purchased from the farmers' market had worms in them. Now, granted, it was organic produce, and from time to time, there are critters, and I can live with that. But, this time, I guess it was too much for me...I might haggle next time or I might just stick to conventional corn.

[Suzy]

I love how so many say those who haggle are the ones driving expensive cars. As, I look in my driveway, there's a 1990 pickup truck with 300k miles on it. And, I'm one of the few who admitted that haggling at the farmer's market was the norm.

I won't pay too much for anything. If the price isn't right, we do without.

[patticky]

Although some members of my family have been great at haggling, I am so happy to have the local farmers that I generally pay the full price, as long as it is reasonably fair. (If the price is way out of line, I simply pass.) But I graciously accept any free extras.

(By the way, much of the haggling on the part of my family had to do with quality i.e. go to the back of the storeroom and see if you can find a sweeter, bigger watermelon. It wasn't a question of money alone.)

[fungi_provider]

I don't haggle either. Being one that sells wild mushrooms via a farmers market environment, I'm often experiencing a number of obstacles in completing a sale, including price. My goods are wild and all provided by mother nature. My harvest depends on hours of foraging for the said seasonal delight, making sure it remains in near perfect condition from the time of the harvest until it arrives on a piece of plywood in a basket at market. Once the price is set, I feel that is all that needs to be said, regarding cost. However it rarely is, except when a choice customer shows up that actually understands the value of the product, and my desire to provide it.

Now, on to more conventional Farmers Market items, like eggplant, corn and tomatoes. I resent the fact that most signs for corn, for instance, simply say "Sweet Corn". Very rarely will the vendor post the variety, if he/she even knows.

I don't go to the Farmers Market for so called, "Field Tomatoes", but I assure you that 98% of the tomatoes here in S.W. Ontario, at market are just that, and clearly advertised as such.

So no, I don't haggle, I simply don't buy, unless the product is exquisite to me. And if that's the case, I pay the vendors asking price.

[Angeline7270]

My favorite vendors have always been the ones who bothered to get to know me...who knew my family's likes and dislikes, our eating habits, etc. I've never had to haggle with the vendors who know me, they know what I like, and even set aside items for me knowing I'd be there later in the afternoom. I can recall one time where I was given a free box of bananas in exchange for making a few loaves of banana bread for a vendor. I was able to have days worth of fresh bananas for the kids, many loaves of banana bread, and additional ziploc's of frozen mashed bananas for future baking, all for the cost of about $3 worth of flour, butter, eggs and baking powder. Who needs to haggle when you have people like that around?

[Jim Charles]

I negotiated every day during my working career, but would never do that with my farmer friends. I’ve been going to the same stand for many years a couple miles from my home and the woman who has always run it is now about 80 and still working hard. Her two middle-aged sons tend a large truck garden on the property and my wife or I visit it every evening during the season. I would feel like the biggest jerk in the world to try and bicker with her and besides she’d probably kick my butt. She is always trying to give us stuff and sneaks extras into our bags all the time. If she finds out I’m making sauce she throws a big bag of very ripe peppers and tomatoes into the back of my truck and tells me to drop some gravy off to her on my next trip. She never forgets, so I have to remember to bring it. They are a great family of hard working down to earth people that I’m sure going to miss when they are gone.

[bigred93]

I don't haggle at farmers markets either, for many of the reasons enumerated above - mostly, I want to remain respectful of the folks who are selling at the market.

Which, upon reflection, strikes me as sad and wasteful. An example: I was at the market last Saturday and there was a booth where the farmer was selling beautiful heirloom tomatoes, about orange-sized, for $3. Not $3 a pound, $3 each. They were beautiful tomatoes, but for $3 each I just kept walking. Didn't seem like they were selling a lot, either. Thinking about it now, I would have been much more tempted had the price been more like $1.50 or $2.00 or so. Of course, I didn't say anything, because I wanted to be respectful.

But what if I had? The tomato was worth $2 to me, and maybe the farmer would in the end have been happier to sell one for $2 rather than not sell one at all. Or maybe he would have rather said no thanks, I'll wait and see if someone will pay the $3 I'm looking for.

Aren't we actually better off for having had that conversation? By me walking away silently, I guarantee myself no tomato, and the farmer guarantees himself no sale. Maybe we wouldn't have agreed to terms, but, really, what's the harm in starting the conversation?

[Luckylies]

I don't haggle at farmers markets either, for many of the reasons enumerated above - mostly, I want to remain respectful of the folks who are selling at the market.

Which, upon reflection, strikes me as sad and wasteful.  An example: I was at the market last Saturday and there was a booth where the farmer was selling beautiful heirloom tomatoes, about orange-sized, for $3.  Not $3 a pound, $3 each.  They were beautiful tomatoes, but for $3 each I just kept walking.  Didn't seem like they were selling a lot, either.  Thinking about it now, I would have been much more tempted had the price been more like $1.50 or $2.00 or so.  Of course, I didn't say anything, because I wanted to be respectful.

But what if I had?  The tomato was worth $2 to me, and maybe the farmer would in the end have been happier to sell one for $2 rather than not sell one at all.  Or maybe he would have rather said no thanks, I'll wait and see if someone will pay the $3 I'm looking for.

Aren't we actually better off for having had that conversation?  By me walking away silently, I guarantee myself no tomato, and the farmer guarantees himself no sale.  Maybe we wouldn't have agreed to terms, but, really, what's the harm in starting the conversation?

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Exactly! I've always considered it rude to assume another couldn't hold their own in a converstion especially an adult person who conducts business- in public. Maybe some farmers don't like to "deal" with "hagglers" but if we replace the word "haggling" with "negotiating" is there as much stigma still attached?

I think negotiating a fair price between two people is considered distasteful only if one party is at a signifigant disadvantage; economically, politically, or is under some sort of duress...I never realized annoying someone was somehow an empedimet to their business. I've been asked to bring my prices down for my work many, many times. Some of the times that I have, have been good, solid decisions, other times not. I've never faulted an employer for asking me to work for less, and I've never had a problem saying no. If I did, I wouldn't quite be able to call myself prepared to interact with the public on a professional level.

[Susan G]

When I lived in the PRC, it was unthinkable to accept the first asking price from a sidewalk vendor: It was like wearing a large sign on your back saying, "Dupe"......but to haggle at an American farmers market? I've started a conversation whose premise is, "To me, your labor isn't worth your asking price." Aiyee!

Certainly there are many times when this is so......I've passed on those $3/apiece tomatoes as well. For the sake of social niceties, I'm going to keep that disparagement to myself: The farmer will know if he's correctly judged my assessment of his/her labor worth by the sale (or lack thereof).

[TAPrice]

How odd the basic rules of economics don't apply at farmers markets. That example of the $3 tomatoes that don't sell at that price but might at $2 seems like a textbook example of how prices are determined in a market system.

What is going on in farmers markets that makes basic economics break down?

[ghostrider]

I don't think that the laws of economics have broken down. The farmer will maintain his price if he sells enough $3 tomatoes, or eventually lower it if no customers bite. And if the lower price doesn't cover his costs in raising those particular tomatoes, you probably won't see them next year.

A # of farmers at markets & stands in my area have posted quantity discount prices. I think the net effect of that is to discourage haggling. I'm wondering whether haggling for farm goods is less common in the northeast than in other areas of the US.

Edited August 22, 2006 by ghostrider (log)

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I wonder what Farmers' Market hagglers also haggle over, that has a fixed price -- clothing, restaurant meals, subway fare, cocktails?

I keep getting the impression from many of these posts, that a farmer's work and service isn't seen as having real value.

[Blue_Egg_Farmer]

I wonder what Farmers' Market hagglers also haggle over, that has a fixed price -- clothing, restaurant meals, subway fare, cocktails? 

I keep getting the impression from many of these posts, that a farmer's work and service isn't seen as having real value.

←

Yes, I believe some will,

I have set up at my share of both farmers markets and flea markets.

After careful observation over time I noticed that many of the hagglers themselves were also vendors, not your average customer.

They were the people that go to a garage sale early and start into and argument over how your box of LPs or books isn't worth the box they are packed in, talk you down , then take all that stuff to their flea market stand and put prices on each item that reflect "collectable or antique" pricing.

( found this out when my mom had a garage sale) Just try to haggle with that guy now!!!

This type of person is also the one that will go down to (name your most inexpensive store here) in a pickup and load up on vegetables, peel off the stickers, go to the farmers market with those veggies and say they are their own home grown veggies.

Caught one vendor that used to be very friendly to me, he forgot to take the sticker off his peppers one morning, I held up a beautiful orange pepper one day with a store sticker on it, he grabbed it away and never spoke to me again!

One woman at the flea market was particularly crafty, going to fast food restaurants and always finding something wrong with her half finished meal to get a replacement, she was very proud of the fact and would have stories of naughty things she had done every weekend.

The same folks every week with the same talk, for these people it is a way of life. Being able to say no to these people did help toughen me up alittle bit because they would and did talk me down to nothing in the beginning.

But after one summer of trying the markets I learned that it just wasn't where I wanted to be. Too much hard work and time and money was wasted that summer. It did teach me about people though.

[bigred93]

I wonder what Farmers' Market hagglers also haggle over, that has a fixed price -- clothing, restaurant meals, subway fare, cocktails? 

I keep getting the impression from many of these posts, that a farmer's work and service isn't seen as having real value.

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That last statement is almost a non sequitur. In the example that I used, I explicitly defined the value that I would put on the product (in this case an heirloom tomato, the product of the farmer's 'work and service' as you put it). The issue isn't that it doesn't have value, the issue is that the value I place on the product he's selling isn't the same as the value that he puts on it himself.

That's very different than saying that it's valueless.

Again - if you were the farmer running this business, wouldn't you rather have the opportunity to decide if you'd rather sell the product at $2, or wait for someone to meet your price?

The way it stands right now, I as the consumer have the option to take the price the farmer set or not. If I'm unwilling to buy at the set price but would be willing at a lower price, doesn't giving the farmer the option to meet that price make him better off? He's under no obligation and can freely say "no thanks". But it's providing an option he didn't have before.

[Kent Wang]

Bigred93, I totally agree with your assessment that the lack of haggling makes the market less efficient and less beneficial for everyone involved. One should take into account, however, the social aspects of haggling. In the West haggling is not common and so to attempt to negotiate a price may be awkward, off-putting, even slightly offensive.

[TAPrice]

Reading over this thread, it's easy to see why Whole Foods has such a great business model. People are clearly willing to pay more for reasons that have nothing to do with the greater value of the product.

Personally, I don't haggle at the farmers market. It's just not worth the trouble to save a few dollars. If I were buying a large quantity, then I would certainly ask for a discount.

The difference between the farmers market and the grocery store is that you are dealing directly with the owner/producer/seller. When more money is involved, I haggle all the time in similar situation. I haggle for cars, homes, etc.

I'd love to hear a small farmer's reaction to all this (and not the kind who casts themselves as an artisan). It seems like haggling is a way of life for farmers. Ever been to a state fair? What would you call what's taking place at the livestock auctions?

In fact, the children of farmers that I know would haggle at a retail store. I'm a few generations from the farming life (and my grandpa was a sharecropper), so I don't have a lot of first hand knowledge.

Edited August 23, 2006 by TAPrice (log)

[Blue_Egg_Farmer]

TAPrice writes: "Ever been to a state fair? What would you call what's taking place at the livestock auctions?"

In our state the auction at the fair is for FFA and 4H children it is called Junior Fair. The kids raise meat animals, pamper them, learn about them, take tests about their animal, then at the fair they are in competition for showmanship ( how well they can handle their animal and how much knowledge they possess about it) then the animal themselves get judged to see how well they have grown over the summer or year, then they have an auction to sell the childrens animals.

The meat that comes from these animals is usually of the highest quality since the childen must work with the animals on an individual basis every day, take them for walks to tone up, keep them clean,washing and brushing all the time, feed them the highest quality feed ( which usually happens to the most expensive), and they must abide by the rules of no hormones or steroids or anything that will cause the animal to bulk up unnaturally, testing will be done and cheater caught.

The children first have to invite buyers, they hand write letters with photos of them with their animal to businesses or individuals. In hopes that someone will bid.

The prices will go high for some lucky children, others will get the preset "buyers club price" (maybe they forgot to send out their letters...they are kids after all).

The auction is a win win situation.

The children will get money to put toward a new project animal or to save for school. The buyer will get extremely high quality meat ,a tax right off ( the junior fair auction is tax deductable) and get free advertizing on the radio and in the paper.

And if the buyer donates the livestock back to the auction so that the child gets another round with his animal or donates the livestock to Harvest for Hunger they get a double tax deduction.

That is what is going on with the fair auction.

It is for the kids, not the average market vendor.

If anyone here is interested in the healthiest quality meat possible I would encouage you to bid at the junior fair, you will get the best meat you ever had and be helping a child earn money and feel good about being a small farmer at the same time.

[TAPrice]

I don't think this describes the auction I saw at the Texas State Fair, but I could be wrong.

[ghostrider]

Reading over this thread, it's easy to see why Whole Foods has such a great business model. People are clearly willing to pay more for reasons that have nothing to do with the greater value of the product.

←

I mentioned this in a local NJ thread but maybe it's germane here: all season, my local Whole Foods has been using Jersey Fresh corn as an apparent loss leader, consistently undercutting the farmers' market prices by anywhere from 10 cents to 35 cents per ear.

They are also selling Jersey Fresh peaches at 50 cents a pound less than the farmers' market.

("Jersey Fresh" is a designation meaning grown in-state - perhaps that's self-explanatory.)

I suppose I could use these numbers as ammunition for haggling but I don't. The goods still look more freshly picked, and the peaches riper, at the farmers' market. I think that's worth the price differential.

[LindaK]

I don't haggle. But I do make decisions about whether I think the prices are worth it to me. Today, for instance, I passed up the organic scallions at $2 a bunch, but splurged on the micro greens (arugula, mustards, pea shoots, etc) at $4 a bag, about a 1/3 lb. They are so delectable, I've become addicted.

Bigred93's comments make sense, I must admit. I will question the prices--if they seem overly expensive--of farmers that I frequent often, it seems less like haggling than a conversation. But these are the folks who let me sample things before I buy, who will give me a free melon if I tell them the one from last week was a disappointment...I don't think I could do the same from someone who didn't know me as a regular.

The only haggling I ever do is at the margin. If I only have $5 and buy $4 of eggplant, but want some zucchini too, I'll ask if I can add a couple for my last dollar. the answer is almost always yes.

[lemniscate]

I grew up on a mid-sized farm about 30 miles north of Detroit. For a large part of the time, we were a "truck" farm. That means we grew fields of different vegetables for wholesale and retail local markets. The wholesale was done EARLY (2am-7am) weekday mornings at Eastern Market where we sold large orders of bushels of green beans, sweet corn, pickles, etc... to the local supermarket and larger fruit and produce stands. There was always haggling at this level because as a farmer you had to figure out what the other farmers were offering their green beans for and price yours accordingly. The supermarket buyers of course wanted the best deal. I liked this market the best.

On Saturdays, we were at Chene and Ferry Market with a stall. Here we sold by the pound or by the dozen. There was always haggling here too. The dumb hagglers would show up early, some would make comments about the "low" quality, "how could you ask that price for such junk". Our vegetables were pretty darn good. Not all, but those are the idiots I remember the most. We gave special pricing on volume. The smart hagglers showed up late, just before the market closed and generally got great deals. What was left we didn't want to take home, maybe the premium veggies were gone but the stuff left was still pretty good. If we took the stuff home, we generally would feed it to the cow herd. I hated the early hagglers, I didn't mind the late hagglers. Some of those early hagglers were downright mean. This time frame was when I was a baby to about when I was 13 when we quit doing the truck farming and went into soybean farming. These people would haggle with a child. Alot of the clientele was D.P. (Displaced Persons from WWII that had settled in the Hamtramck area), I think the "tradition" of haggling came over from those Eastern European cultures.

You'd think I'd be a haggler, but I'm not. Haggling takes up time. I just want to buy what looks good and move on. Back when I was on the farm, there was no such thing as "artisanal" and "organic". It was a way to make a living, a tough way to make a living.

[lemniscate]

btw, in case you were thinking I was some old person who lived thru the depression and blah, blah, blah. I'm 42, so these experiences were in the 70's and early 80's.

[dfunghi]

I would like to weigh in on this. I have been working at the markets in So Cal since 1992 and before that I was a biweekly shopper in Union square going back to 1982 or so. So I have over 20 years in the markets. I can tell you with absolute certainty that those that haggle or try to "offer" you a lower price than the one you are asking for are looked down on and almost never rewarded with a discount. Regular customers are always rewarded with discounts or a little extra "lanyap" if you will. Never does anyone ask for this before they receive it. They have earned it the same way that stand has earned your business. Through fair pricing and high quality. In my personal situation if someone "offers" me a lower price I ask them right away if they are poor and do they need the discount and perhaps they would do better to look for lower quality produce at much lower prices. I further ask them why would I reward their rudeness and charge my long time regular customer full price while giving them a discount. Rarely if ever is the "offer" made politely. It is more along the lines of a bark than a request. Every now and then someone (I have a few customers like this) is truly in need of a discount and it is obvious they are on a fixed income or have some limitations. They show up every week for the same $1 of shiitake and I always give them about $3 and have done so for years. I am sure every farmer has the same story about a handful of regulars they help support. Loyalty is what will EARN someone a discount. Not demanding or demeaning the product. One of the number one things we talk about with each other (farmers) is the obnoxious people that try to offer you a dollar for everything.

In relation to the green market not being a "bargain". It is not supposed to be. It was never set up to be a bargain. You want bargains go to a large grocery chain that buys fruit and veggies from all over the globe and sells apples at 5 pounds for a dollar as a loss leader. If you want to have interaction with the person that grew, foraged, encouraged the production of your food go to the market. But please do us all a favor and if it is just a bargain you are looking for do not try to find high quality on the cheap. They are not compatible. We all work too hard , too long, and make too little to be giving discounts to people that somehow believe they are entitled to one by simply asking for it. I have seen people complain about the quality of the peaches that are thrown away by the farmer and put in a box marked "FREE" behind the truck. Those are the same type of people that ask for a discount before earning one. I am sure most of my customers would agree with that assessment.

I was planning a trip to Italy a few years ago and I even had someone tell me I was charging too much for my items if I could afford to go to Europe. I suppose my 1993 truck with 205K miles should be kept running forever as well after all why should I or anyone be driving a new car. We must be overcharging people if we make a decent living.

I will leave you all with my favorite farmer joke:

Farmer wins 1 million dollars in the lottery and is asked what he plans to do with the money. He says " I will keep farming until the money runs out"

Please visit your local farmers market and buy some fruit and veggies that are super fresh, hopefully organic (even if not certified) and priced for the farmer to make a nice living and reward all their hard work as well as all the hard work of the many people they employ. And if you want to haggle at least bring something to the table. have some type of positive exchange beyond "what can you do for me ".

Edited August 24, 2006 by dfunghi (log)

[LindaK]

There seems to be an ideological divide between those who think of haggling as part of a social, cultural fabric and those who think of it as an opportunity to test the principles of market economics. I don't have any experience with the former, so can't really comment. But on the second point, I do agree wtih dfunghi:

In relation to the green market not being a "bargain". It is not supposed to be. It was never set up to be a bargain.

Even if the prices at the famers market and Whole Foods seems comparable (ie., expensive), the quality rarely is. While I'm not wealthy, I count myself lucky that I can afford both and live in a city where I have access to the former, May - November.

Back to the topic of haggling:

Loyalty is what will EARN someone a discount. Not demanding or demeaning the product.

This sentiment feels right to me. Bravo.