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Who Owns a Baker's Recipes?


chefpeon

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So I've made the decision that I really need to leave my current job. Don't want to bore you with the gory details, but my frustration level with the bosses has reached a point where it's destroying me and I can't deal with it anymore. I have communicated my frustrations to them and they know I'm not happy, but more than anything, it has to do with personalities, and everyone knows you can't change personalities.

In a nutshell, it comes down to me being from the background of a trained professional in urban kitchens, and I'm dealing with small-town folks who only run their kitchen as a business and have no particular care or pride in the product they are producing. My job satisfaction comes from making beautiful tasty things I can be proud of.....it's not about the cheesy paycheck. Whether it's a beautiful wedding cake or a simple cookie, I want to be proud enough of it to say "I made that."

Since I got hired there (as the only baker, I might add), business has more than quadrupled. I would hope to say that it had a lot to do with my attention to detail and quality. It finally got to the point to where I couldn't handle it all by myself anymore, and I needed help. Well, this being a small town and all, there isn't a huge job pool to choose from....especially in foodservice....basically you take what you can get. I have two assistants now.....neither are bakers, and I've had to try to train them from the ground up....and I mean THE BASICS. Of course, I'm given very little time to train them, and have had to resort to leaving them long descriptive notes of what I need done before I'm shoved out the door by the boss because now he's all paranoid about having to pay three people.

The quality of the product has gone straight into the toilet (by my standards) and this distresses me to no end. Everyone else there just wants to get the product out, regardless of how it looks, whether it's overbaked, underbaked, the wrong size, or just done incorrectly. The boss tries to pass anything off and as long as he gets no complaints, that's all well and good. Well, there HAVE been complaints, and he does replace products that have gotten the complaints at no charge. Of course, that's good customer service, but in my eyes, if it's done right in the first place, there will be NO COMPLAINTS, and you don't lose money by having to replace items at no charge.

So. I can't change the mindset. I can't make people care. I gotta go.

The dilemma? I have offered up many items out of my personal recipe collection. Stuff that I have collected and tweaked over the years to make my own. Many of these items have become best sellers there. I'm upset and angry at my employers and I just want to take all these recipes back so they can't sell them any more. They haven't been savvy enough to make their own copies or anything, so once they are out of the recipe book, they're gone. I know this is my emotional side talking. Is taking back my recipes ethical? Is there some sort of law that says once I've produced them for that business, that they now "own" the recipes? Will I just be creating trouble for myself? Anyone else been in a similar situation?

:sad:

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Huh, I was under the impression it was your own bakery (perhaps you should start your own ;) ). But, yeah, I've also worked with people to whom cooking was just a "job." Working at such places was so unfun.

The dilemma? I have offered up many items out of my personal recipe collection. Stuff that I have collected and tweaked over the years to make my own. Many of these items have become best sellers there. I'm upset and angry at my employers and I just want to take all these recipes back so they can't sell them any more. They haven't been savvy enough to make their own copies or anything, so once they are out of the recipe book, they're gone. I know this is my emotional side talking. Is taking back my recipes ethical? Is there some sort of law that says once I've produced them for that business, that they now "own" the recipes? Will I just be creating trouble for myself? Anyone else been in a similar situation?

I'm curious about this as well. I've wondered what happens when a chef leaves -- whose recipes are they? In a lot of other professions when you are employed by somebody, they usually own the work you produce for them. There recently was a head chef change at a well-known local restaurant (Mel's), and the place kept a lot of the old dishes, but also added a lot of new items created by the new chef (many of which I think he brought from the last place he was a chef).

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I dont know about a law that says you have to leave them your recipe , if would be up to me I wouldnt leave them,if they arent interested enough in keeping you there at your condition and standards they dont deserve to keep all your work and efforts, and probably do it all wrong .I would bring all my stuff with me and dont even think twice.

Good luck I hope you will find a place that will give you what you are looking for ( maybe your own? :biggrin: )

Vanessa

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Huh, I was under the impression it was your own bakery (perhaps you should start your own ;)

FYI-my "baking job" is my day job. I do my specialty cakes "on the side" as my own business...that's what "Cake-o-Rama" is. The one perk my bosses give me is the use of their kitchen to do my cakes and I only have to pay them 10 percent of what I charge my clients. The sad part is that once I quit the baking day job, my kitchen will go away also, and I won't be able to do cakes til I find another commercial kitchen space.

So that's that story.

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Though I don't work in the food industry and never have, I have been around the block a few times and had some dreadful bosses. All I can say to you is that the momentary sense of satisfaction that taking your recipes with you will provide is just that -- momentary. The bridges you may unknowingly burn will haunt you for much longer. Go in peace and remind yourself that what goes around comes around. Put all of your strength and determination into finding a position that brings you satisfaction - don't waste an iota of it in seeking redress.

Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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The dilemma? I have offered up many items out of my personal recipe collection. Stuff that I have collected and tweaked over the years to make my own. Many of these items have become best sellers there. I'm upset and angry at my employers and I just want to take all these recipes back so they can't sell them any more. They haven't been savvy enough to make their own copies or anything, so once they are out of the recipe book, they're gone. I know this is my emotional side talking. Is taking back my recipes ethical?

Sounds like your colleagues are too incompetent to make your recipes correctly without you anyway. Personally, I'm all for sharing, but that's a decision you have to make. If your employers were mean-spirited or spiteful or dishonest with you, I might by inclined to take my recipes with me. If its just a matter of incompatible philosophies and goals, I would be inclined to share them. Either way, good luck. With your talent, I don't think you'll need much of that, but it never hurts.

"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced" - Vincent Van Gogh
 

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This is an opinion coming from someone who is not a lawyer....

but....

unless you signed some contract originally with them stating anything you contribute shall remain their property, then I see no reason you should leave them with your repertoire. They were a bakery long before you came along and would've had their own recipes they were already using.... no reason they can't fall back on using those same recipes again.

But for what it's worth, the non-bakers who will remain won't have the ability to replicate your quality of work anyways, regardless of whether you leave your recipe cards or not.

I'm so happy for you and I think this is great news. I think you've been wasting your talents putting so much time and effort into this place, as I'm sure others will agree. Yes, you'll be losing a (scrimpy but needed) paycheck and a legal workspace for your own pursuits, but both of those things are replacable.

I see you creating things more on the artistic side instead of doing production work. I know the client population in the area is limited, but then, that's what the internet and online shopping carts are for.

Best of luck to you...... :smile:

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taking recipes that you have executed at an establishment is totally wrong if you ask me

instead just change them slightly so that they won't work after you are gone

(just kidding)

i've taken the low road and the high road upon leaving poor work situations. it's been better for me to be the bigger person and leave graciously even if you're notice is short. you can chalk this experience up to your accomplishments and be able to negociate a better situation next time.

your cake business "on the side" using your employers equipment is something that i would never ever recommend doing as it can complicate professional relationships...

good luck

edit: i should specify. i have taken recipes that i have made. i have taken recipes that i have developed. but i have left all recipes behind (in their orginal state).

Edited by artisanbaker (log)
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What happens is that the satisfaction you would get by screwing them a bit for the formulas will ultimately make you feel bad whether you trace it back to that act or not. It's revenge. That's not the way to feel good. I'm selfish, I like to make me feel good.

If I gave my recipes somewhere, I would have already made the decison to leave them there whether I stayed or not. And like you & everyone is saying, they can't make the recipes correctly anyhow. The formulas are yours but you freely made them a part of their business. It's your legacy. It's a good thing if you let it be good.

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Presumably you have given 2 weeks notice, has your boss not asked for your recipes...if not, then perhaps he/she is not interested. I have had a few bakers over the years and generally we brainstrorm recipes together..I encourage my staff to exercise their creative talents. You, by the way, sound great..good luck to you and I wish you lived in Vancouver. And, as everyone has said...what goes around ...comes around..leave graciously....

cheers Lynn

IN FOOD, CHEF LYNN FROM ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS FOODS CAFE AND CATERING

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Did you sign anything? No? This is YOUR WORK, your job--it's theirs too. If they did not ask you to sign something, and have expressed no interest in your recipes, take them and go. You must protect your intelectual property against misuse, misrepresentation etc...it would be totally different if you signed something thus essentially selling them your recipes. Sounds like you have been selling your time and labor and yor may keep your developments. I'm no lawyer, but leave them what they had before you, it's all you owe them other than two weeks notice. If you do this politely there may be bad feelings but no bridges will be burned.

good luck.

does this come in pork?

My name's Emma Feigenbaum.

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That comes under what is called intellectual property , if its your recipe that you developed in your house on your own time. They are legaly yours, and even if they arent pattened if they tried to take it to courts (proboly not) you would win...

I Feel for ya, not everyone has a boss like mine... I personaly have a boss (who owns the store) that has on more then 1 occasion made me redo something because the head baker was not there, and I messed up. He would rather have me do it 10 times then have a crappy product.. good luck to ya.

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I know a clean legal answer is what you really need, but I'll just speak to the practical and ethical part of the question.

As a practical matter, don't you dare leave them that macaroon recipe! You could make millions with that. Leave them the hippie flax cookie? Ya sure, you betcha. Please do, in fact.

I say that if it's a recipe you created before you worked there, and especially if you baked it commercially before you worked there, it's yours. If you developed it for them, most likely there's a good argument for leaving it.

But there's nothing to say you can't rewrite a recipe, is there? Since they're all nincompoops, can you just leave the ingredient list, that any real baker could work with without instructions? Or just fill the recipe with percentages and abbreviations, so you can say you left it, but they can't really make it?

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That comes under what is called intellectual property , if its your recipe that you developed in your house on your own time. They are legaly yours, and even if they arent pattened if they tried to take it to courts (proboly not) you would win...

A recipe, in the sense of a set of ingredients and procedures for producing a certain food product, I don't think is or can be protected under any intellectual property laws in the US. The specific literary expression of a recipe is of course protected -- you can't simply copy and republish a published recipe.

ETA: What I'm saying is that if one of chefpeon's coworkers knows the recipe by heart and wants to continue to produce it, I don't think chefpeon has any legal way to prevent that.

Edited by Patrick S (log)

"If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,' then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced" - Vincent Van Gogh
 

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You're in a tough position. I understand your situation from both the employee and employer perspective. You may have referred to the paycheck as 'cheesy' but you need to realize that it is their business. They are in it to make money. The cost of ingredients and employee wages is significant. Has anybody looked at raising the prices to cover wages?

In our business we've always maintained the highest quality at significant cost - we have an outstanding reputation for quality, but profitability has always been an issue. Unless you're doing a huge volume (unlikely in a small town) something has to give.

It's commendable that you don't want to be associated with low-quality products - but it's not your business.

About your recipes - I'd hesitate before pulling them from the recipe book. As others have stated, it seems unlikely that they'll be able to pull them off without you. As Patrick mentioned, a list of ingredients is not copyright-able, nor is it what makes a recipe. All pulling the recipes will do is burn bridges and the joy that you may get from doing it won't last long.

Other than the recipe issue - are you leaving on good terms with your bosses? Have you thought about asking them if you could continue to 'rent' the kitchen during their down-times? If there is any chance of this, don't spoil it by pulling your recipes in the heat of the moment.

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Im a computer scientist/Software developer. Even taking something I've produced for an employeer with me when I leave would be considered a deadly sin. Removing the product from my employer would be even worse and would result in a lawsuit for sure.

Bead and computers are not always comparable though. I would take the advice of the other people here and put your ego aside. Try to leave the business with all smiles and on good terms with your ex-collegeus! You never know where ,when or in what situation you'll face them again!

Best of luck

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A recipe, in the sense of a set of ingredients and procedures for producing a certain food product, I don't think is or can be protected under any intellectual property laws in the US. The specific literary expression of a recipe is of course protected -- you can't simply copy and republish a published recipe.

ETA: What I'm saying is that if one of chefpeon's coworkers knows the recipe by heart and wants to continue to produce it, I don't think chefpeon has any legal way to prevent that.

I agree.

From what I gather, you did not sell the cakes or goods in their shop under ownership titles like, "Chefpeon's orange marmalade cake." You sold it under the guise of the bakeries products. It is a tricky slope to go down. Given that neither party signed any intellectual property agreements like artists do when creating work, this matter would be one for the courts.

With that said, being a small bakery, they probably would not have the money or spend the time to hire lawyers and such. So I would take your recipes and exit quietly. It sounds like you are making a wise decision.

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Where's Wendy DeBord when you need her? I'd tell the weasel, Look, I'm leaving, you know and I know, and you know that I know, that a lot of what we do here I brought with me. We either work out a royalty payment on future sales, or it's coming with me. And then I'd effin' take my recipes.

The last job I left I was more than gracious about helping them with stuff they wanted that I did because it was a private club. the job before that, I copied THEIR formula book before I left, in spite of a noncompete thing. And all that stuff is safe and sound in my notebook, and they went out of business, through no fault of mine, but because they were idiots.

Currently, anything I develop or bring in automatically belongs to "The Company." So they're not getting the cream of the crop. This is my craft, my skill, my passion that tweaks these things to be so good. You gotta take care of me like you want me. I do not at all mind being stroked a little.

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Given that neither party signed any intellectual property agreements like artists do when creating work, this matter would be one for the courts.

Let's not be hasty, here. I really doubt this would or could ever go to court, and I don't think that's where Anne is worried, anyways. No need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I still say take your stuff..... they had ther own recipes before you came along. If they specifically ask for one or two of yours in particular, graciously leave it in the form of an ingredient list only, just like it's probably written in the recipe book now.

Now, what's this I hear about fabulous macaroons??? :biggrin:

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That comes under what is called intellectual property , if its your recipe that you developed in your house on your own time. They are legaly yours, and even if they arent pattened if they tried to take it to courts (proboly not) you would win...

A recipe, in the sense of a set of ingredients and procedures for producing a certain food product, I don't think is or can be protected under any intellectual property laws in the US. The specific literary expression of a recipe is of course protected -- you can't simply copy and republish a published recipe.

Yep, the ingredient list of recipes can't be copyrighted. So if the bakery already has chefpeon's recipes, they can probably continue to use them (but not, say, publish them in their own cookbook - or if they did, it'd be a matter of who could prove authorship). But if they don't have them, and chefpeon doesn't want to give the recipes to them, well they're probably SOL. As they say, it pays to get stuff in writing - but I've never seen any such legal IP contracts in any restaurants I've worked in.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't (for example) somebody open up a pastry shop and just use recipes verbatim from the latest top cookbooks, without having to worry about any legal ramifications? As I understand it - yes.

edit - oh yeah, I'd love to see that macaroon recipe too . :biggrin:

Edited by johnsmith45678 (log)
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That comes under what is called intellectual property , if its your recipe that you developed in your house on your own time. They are legaly yours, and even if they arent pattened if they tried to take it to courts (proboly not) you would win...

A recipe, in the sense of a set of ingredients and procedures for producing a certain food product, I don't think is or can be protected under any intellectual property laws in the US. The specific literary expression of a recipe is of course protected -- you can't simply copy and republish a published recipe.

Yep, the ingredient list of recipes can't be copyrighted. So if the bakery already has chefpeon's recipes, they can probably continue to use them (but not, say, publish them in their own cookbook - or if they did, it'd be a matter of who could prove authorship). But if they don't have them, and chefpeon doesn't want to give the recipes to them, well they're probably SOL. As they say, it pays to get stuff in writing - but I've never seen any such legal IP contracts in any restaurants I've worked in.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't (for example) somebody open up a pastry shop and just use recipes verbatim from the latest top cookbooks, without having to worry about any legal ramifications? As I understand it - yes.

I do that all the time. No one knows I use Jacque Pepin's creme caramel, or Payard's lemon tart, or Cook's Illustrated panna cotta and chocolate pudding. Why the heck are they publishing them, if not to use?

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That comes under what is called intellectual property , if its your recipe that you developed in your house on your own time. They are legaly yours, and even if they arent pattened if they tried to take it to courts (proboly not) you would win...

A recipe, in the sense of a set of ingredients and procedures for producing a certain food product, I don't think is or can be protected under any intellectual property laws in the US. The specific literary expression of a recipe is of course protected -- you can't simply copy and republish a published recipe.

Yep, the ingredient list of recipes can't be copyrighted. So if the bakery already has chefpeon's recipes, they can probably continue to use them (but not, say, publish them in their own cookbook - or if they did, it'd be a matter of who could prove authorship). But if they don't have them, and chefpeon doesn't want to give the recipes to them, well they're probably SOL. As they say, it pays to get stuff in writing - but I've never seen any such legal IP contracts in any restaurants I've worked in.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't (for example) somebody open up a pastry shop and just use recipes verbatim from the latest top cookbooks, without having to worry about any legal ramifications? As I understand it - yes.

I do that all the time. No one knows I use Jacque Pepin's creme caramel, or Payard's lemon tart, or Cook's Illustrated panna cotta and chocolate pudding. Why the heck are they publishing them, if not to use?

Yeah, every place I worked at that created their own dishes in house heavily relied on published cookbooks as well. And from what I hear, recon and stealing of recipes from other local hot restaurants goes on as well.

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I do that all the time. No one knows I use Jacque Pepin's creme caramel, or Payard's lemon tart, or Cook's Illustrated panna cotta and chocolate pudding. Why the heck are they publishing them, if not to use?

This is an interesting subject. To answer your question, I would assume they are publishing them for the home baker or cook. If a bakery was to sell them under their name, then that would open up the door for liability. A bakery could sell them under "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel" title on their menu and that would be fine, crediting the chef/author.

Personally, I believe all recipes are to share, especially those that are published, but that is my personal viewpoint, the law is another matter.

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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't (for example) somebody open up a pastry shop and just use recipes verbatim from the latest top cookbooks, without having to worry about any legal ramifications? As I understand it - yes.

There have been several other threads about this issue and the answer is simply yes. You're allowed to cook whatever you can cook, you're allowed to make as much money as you can from what you cook, and no credit is due to the person who originally cooked it. (Because let's face it - a cookbook author didn't necessarily "invent" the recipe, either.)

There are no legal ramifications to using someone else's recipe, published or otherwise. The only place legality has any issue is with the copyrighting of the actual printed word (or in this case, the text following an ingredient list which is in the actual words of the author, and is the property of the book publisher and/or author. You can still use the recipe without giving credit. In fact, you could republish the entire recipe with instructions in your own words without legal recourse either.

The only way copyright can come into play is if you republished an entire work, such as someone else's cookbook, but the instructions were in your own words. That'd be an issue, obviously, because all you did was copy someone else's book and paraphrase.

But that's semantics and irrelevant in terms of this particular discussion......

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Thanks for all the replies, everybody. :smile:

It's commendable that you don't want to be associated with low-quality products - but it's not your business.

That's right....that's why I'm not firing THEM. :raz:

As it is, I haven't yet given notice, but will on Monday. I was waiting to get my last wedding cake out of the way first....didn't need complications on that front.

I plan on exiting gracefully, since burning bridges in a small town, not to mention a small tourist town, is NOT the best strategy. I would like just to give a two week notice, but will offer to stay until they can find a suitable replacement, that is, if they want to replace me at all. They may just decide to stick with who they have (my two assistants) since it's not long until the slow season starts and they find they have TOO MANY employees. Could be that I'm out on my butt on Tuesday if they want to go that route.

The hardest part is coming up with my "reason". I'm not going to tell the truth (I'm leaving because you don't mind selling CRAP-that wouldn't sound good). I'll probably say something vague, like, I'm just not happy here any more, or It's just not working out for me. No need go deeper than that I suppose.

As for the recipes.......I don't need to cause myself any more possible grief, so I think I'll just let it be.....EXCEPT for my macaroons. They've been selling them under the moniker, "Annie's Macaroons", so if Annie ain't makin' the macaroons, then they can't have them. If they want to sell macaroons, they can come up with their own recipe, since there's tons of them out there.

To be truthful, if I weren't so upset with them, I probably wouldn't even have considered taking my recipes back, as I believe recipes should be shared also. I mean, heck, I shared mine with them in the first place. At least I'm wise enough to know not to make decisions in the heat of the moment or when I'm feeling too emotional.

I did need input on this one however, and I appreciate ALL you guys' opinions. :smile:

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