Who Owns a Baker's Recipes?

[Sugarella]

I'll probably say something vague, like, I'm just not happy here any more, or It's just not working out for me. No need go deeper than that I suppose.

I disagree. Do them the favour and be honest. Even the best of the best deserve a kick in the pants every once in a while, for evolution's sake, and we all know your employers aren't even close to the best.

I suspected you hadn't told them yet, or they may have already defined what goes with Anne when she goes, and your question would have been mute. If your plan is to give notice on Monday, then remove the macaroon recipe before you give notice.....you never know....you might be thrown out the door at that very moment with no time allowed to retrieve it.

Best of luck....

[chefpeon]

  If your plan is to give notice on Monday, then remove the macaroon recipe before you give notice.....you never know....you might be thrown out the door at that very moment with no time allowed to retrieve it.

No doubt. Tomorrow, I'm going in to remove it and also retrieve my equipment which I've had on permanent loan to them. Got the bases covered, I think.

Thanks for all your good thoughts.....I truly truly appreciate it!

[tan319]

Best suggestion...

Leave the recipes in their "original" state, aka before tweaking.

It will kill you if your rep gets screwed with, just as an honest person, know what i mean?

I think you're making a good move, good luck, I mean it!

taking recipes that you have executed at an establishment is totally wrong if you ask me

instead just change them slightly so that they won't work after you are gone

(just kidding)

i've taken the low road and the high road upon leaving poor work situations. it's been better for me to be the bigger person and leave graciously even if you're notice is short. you can chalk this experience up to your accomplishments and be able to negociate a better situation next time. 

your cake business "on the side" using your employers equipment is something that i would never ever recommend doing as it can complicate professional relationships...

good luck

edit: i should specify. i have taken recipes that i have made. i have taken recipes that i have developed. but i have left all recipes behind (in their orginal state).

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Edited August 6, 2006 by tan319 (log)

[CanadianBakin']

Good for you, Annie! It takes a lot of courage to leave a fairly secure paycheque. My first thought was like others, that there's no way they could duplicate what you made with your recipes anyways so I don't think you have to worry from that angle. However, the other side is they may not understand that producing a great product isn't as simple as following a recipe. It takes skill and a lot of steps that you can't write out on paper. So there's always the possibility that they'll think you messed up the recipes even though you didn't, simply because they can't reproduce them the same. Hopefully the copies you leave are well worn and it will be obvious that they're the ones you always use. Absolutely take the macaroon recipe. No one else should be producing something that has your name on it. People will expect it to be to Annie's standards.

As for a reason to leave. Just tell them you need a change and that really is the honest to goodness truth without getting into details.

Best wishes for the future!

[Pontormo]

It's not you, it's me.

This has been a truly satisfying experience for me because:

1) I have been able to chart how my role in your kitchen contributed to the popularity and growth of the business. Since I've been here X has increased Y percent, etc.

2) I learned a lot about teaching from the best who trained me, and here for the first time I have been able to apply what I valued the most from those lessons to training Moe and Mildred who came to this kitchen without any previous experience, yet now can do A & B. I look forward to the opportunity to refine my new pedagogical skills in a different environment.

3) Our working relationship has taught me a lot. For example.....(something specific and sincere).

My own catering business, thanks for your help, BTW, couldn't have done it without you, gives me a chance to do C & D, both outgrowths of my culinary training and reasons I got into this business. Over the past few months, I've gotten more and more interested in E & F and gotten much better at them. I find that I can't do those things here in your kitchen given budgetary constraints. I appreciate your situation. These are the things that I wish to explore now, in the next stage of my career. I look forward to a new venue. Let's stay in touch. Nice tie, looks good with that shirt.

Take out the stilted stuff and speak genuinely. No need to spill guts or explain that they have uninformed palates and a shoddy set of priorities. You're just not a good match, but don't say that either. No need to mention recipes or anything else. Let them bring up the subject, if they do. Then, you've already gotten good advice here on that subject.

[artisanbaker]

OK to follow up...

Whenever I worked in North Carolina, I was selected as a candidate for the World Cup of Baking. I developed, on company time, a formula for a long fermentation baguette sur poolish that was shaped by hand. It was for *my* competition, *not* for company purposes. Of course, the company stood to gain a lot from my recognition and indeed the TV channels/newspapers came etc etc.

Whenever I decided to go back to France, I left the company. Of course I knew the formula; I had "invented" it. As a matter of fact, I knew it better than any dough I had previously worked with. So, I "took" the formula with me one might argue. I have since executed the same formula or a minor variation thereof in another company.

Point is: even though I made this product/formula; since I did it on their time it is theirs. I did not "take" the recipe whenever I left because I "invented" it. On the same token I have the "recipe" and I can make it any time I want to (as long as my boss wants to sell it).

For the competition they sold it as the Robi baguette (endearing name I suppose) and we sold a lot of them. This company still sells it (although he's gone to just one cut instead of the five that I was doing) and I suppose it still does pretty well.

Just because I'm not there making it doesn't mean much. It's a bit of my legacy and in a sense, honor. This honor I will gladly receive because I put my blood, sweat and tears into this company, once working for 2 months every day 12 hours min per day.

People will remember me and still probably do as the one who brought this product to the table. If one day it goes away then so be it. I have had the good fortune to aquire a wonderful set of skills and years of experience practising them. I expect there to always be a good market for a quality baked product and *my* work will be appreciated by the discriminating customer.

Coincidently, they've recently updated their site and I will share this link. Keep in mind that *I* developed this product. Don't be mislead.

http://www.lafarmbakery.com/HTML/Breads.html#

click on history of hand rolled baguette

[dejaq]

I read the responses, and this is my experience, at least in my camp,

Unless you have signed a contract that explicitly states, " all formulas developed in house become the property of the operation"...you are bound to comply with leaving the intellectual property behind, at least based on ethics, this is a gray area though.

a few years back I was in a similar situation at a restaurant, they wanted to replace me with someone right out of school who knew nothing, and save the house my wage, they got squat, when I left, same house that was asking the purveyors if a sorbet mix was available.

Before I started Pirouette, I was the one going in on weekends staying until 11:30 pm on a Sunday night,(on my time) developmentally piecing together the line, it required a lot of work, testing, tweaking, re testing, the thing that got Festive into trouble, was that they required me not only to do all of the regular ho hum stuff, but in addition wanted all of the new developments as well, even things that weren't actually put into mainstream product - a lot for one guy, the Chef and I had a falling out, and I put in my notice that following Monday, and never looked back, even when I see Marilee from time to time at a seminar and such, she realizes what she did wrong.

The idiots at Yum Yum got nothing, jack nada zippo zilch, they tried to replace me with someone for 20 K less, you get what you pay for. Since the middle of June they have already ripped thru two PC's.

But this issue has come up again with my current employer, and the previous watch commander left a few things, the staff and the two ladies that were his suitors tried to take the info and run, One of them was called on it, another on my watch who I knowingly realized took the recipes home to photocopy them, is about to be dismissed for it, for not having yet returned them.

Bottom line, use common sense, if a property is just a job to you, and you have no regardence of their functionary interests, moreover if they have treated you poorly, simply leave, you owe them nothing, and your reputation won't be so horribly tainted that you couldn't find work again, believe me, word travels like quicksilver in this biz, if an establishment is run by jackasses, or backstabbers, here in DC, there is a blacklist, but you have to be in the know, to understand who not to go to work for, these are usually the guys that rip thru PC's every six months.

if on the other hand, it is a position of responsibility, and these positions usually entail entering the data into a costing/spec program anyway, then leave on good standing, chances are, they may not be able to replicate what you are doing anyway, once you leave.

Please don?t construe these opinions as callus, people I have been screwed a few times, some employers, and I say some, deserve exactly what they get.

M

Edited August 6, 2006 by dejaq (log)

[gingersweetiepie]

I say you leave them.

I once developed heaps of recipes while working briefly for a restaurant. Not just tweaking but developing things completely from scratch. They wound up in a major cookbook and the food was developed and put on the shelves of major supermarkets. I didn't see a dime for any of it. Some might call me stupid but it didn't bother me as much as you might think it should.

A better example: I once worked as the exec pastry chef of a hotel. From day one, I was handed a binder of recipes to use; I was given very little creative freedom or license to tweak. When I asked what made his recipes so special, he boasted that he took them with him from his last restaurant.

He claims that because he had put more work into his last restaurant than anyone else, and because management didn't understand his vision as a high quality establishments, he snuck out with anything he could: recipes, purveryor files, equipment.

I'd like to hear if anyone respectfully disagrees, but I became seriously sick to my stomach. I saw it as slimy and I handed in my resignation shortly thereafter. 80% of the staff went too.

His actions generally reflected his overall character. It's very hard to trust or respect someone who boasts about and justifies theft.

Again, I left any recipes and menus I had proposed to him without feeling protective about them. Besides the fact that he's barely literate, he just doesn't have the skill to execute. (In a beautiful act of karma, one of my former assistants later went into the staff computer and changed the proportions of the recipes to sabotage the chef. Talk about loyalty.)

This is definitely your call. I know what it's like to leave a place with a bitter attitude (see above), but it did feel better to take the high road.

[Dailey]

just wanted to wish you luck tomarro! hope all goes smoothly for you.

oh, and i would have to take the recipes with me. btw, made your chocolate icing you posted and, WOW, it was awesome!!!

[Patrick S]

I do that all the time. No one knows I use Jacque Pepin's creme caramel, or Payard's lemon tart, or Cook's Illustrated panna cotta and chocolate pudding. Why the heck are they publishing them, if not to use?

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This is an interesting subject. To answer your question, I would assume they are publishing them for the home baker or cook. If a bakery was to sell them under their name, then that would open up the door for liability. A bakery could sell them under "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel" title on their menu and that would be fine, crediting the chef/author.

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That could be tricky, because if you sell a product called "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel," you might actually end up infringing on a trademark, just like if you tried to sell a beer called Sam Adams or open up a lingerie store called Victor's Secret.

But as far as I can tell, from everything I've read, there is no legal reason why you could not do what McDuff is saying -- selling goods made from published recipes. Selling a recipe taken verbatim from a cookbook (i.e. the specific literary expression) or using a trademark is a different matter.

[McDuff]

I do that all the time. No one knows I use Jacque Pepin's creme caramel, or Payard's lemon tart, or Cook's Illustrated panna cotta and chocolate pudding. Why the heck are they publishing them, if not to use?

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This is an interesting subject. To answer your question, I would assume they are publishing them for the home baker or cook. If a bakery was to sell them under their name, then that would open up the door for liability. A bakery could sell them under "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel" title on their menu and that would be fine, crediting the chef/author.

←

That could be tricky, because if you sell a product called "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel," you might actually end up infringing on a trademark, just like if you tried to sell a beer called Sam Adams or open up a lingerie store called Victor's Secret.

But as far as I can tell, from everything I've read, there is no legal reason why you could not do what McDuff is saying -- selling goods made from published recipes. Selling a recipe taken verbatim from a cookbook (i.e. the specific literary expression) or using a trademark is a different matter.

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Of course I'm not putting source names on products. But if any customers are interested, I tell them where I mooched the recipe. Why not use the best of the best? Recipes really are nothing more than lists of ingredients. It's technique that makes them work well.

[K8memphis]

I think you will feel better overall to take the less traveled high road. Methinks they probably have some small inkling why you would be leaving. I would not necessarily mention specifics. Doesn't seem like the type of place to do an exit interview. But using the phrase 'artistic differences' while smiling would be as far as I would go and only if pressed. Keep it simple and keep it nice. I've never regretted being nice.

[johnsmith45678]

I do that all the time. No one knows I use Jacque Pepin's creme caramel, or Payard's lemon tart, or Cook's Illustrated panna cotta and chocolate pudding. Why the heck are they publishing them, if not to use?

←

This is an interesting subject. To answer your question, I would assume they are publishing them for the home baker or cook. If a bakery was to sell them under their name, then that would open up the door for liability. A bakery could sell them under "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel" title on their menu and that would be fine, crediting the chef/author.

←

That could be tricky, because if you sell a product called "Jacque Pepin's creme caramel," you might actually end up infringing on a trademark, just like if you tried to sell a beer called Sam Adams or open up a lingerie store called Victor's Secret.

←

Yeah, I also think that could lead to trouble - you're not allowed to use others' likenesses without their permission. Using Jacque Pepin's name on a menu would give the impression that he might be associated somehow with the restaurant.

[Squirrelly Cakes]

Good luck to you tomorrow! To me, you sound like a person of the type of character, that reflects a lot before making decisions. So I am certain you will make a decision that will be best for you to live with.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

[chefpeon]

Yeah.....tomorrow......(gulp)

I have no idea what their reaction will be when I give my notice......makes me very nervous.

My very good friend Abra, and her husband Shel, came up here to take me to brunch and to help me feel better (my cat turned up missing since Friday and I'm having a dreadful biopsy tomorrow to make sure the little mass on my mammogram isn't cancer), so yeah, I'm not having a very good weekend.....stewing and worrying.....

But they made me laugh. We were discussing the reason(s) I would give them, should they ask why I wanted to leave, and I said, maybe I'll just say, "Professional and artistic differences", and Shel said, "Yeah, you could say, "I'm professional and artistic......and you're.....different."

[SweetSide]

... maybe I'll just say, "Professional and artistic differences", and Shel said, "Yeah, you could say, "I'm professional and artistic......and you're.....different." 

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Best of luck on all three counts -- leaving for greener pastures, having your cat turn up on your doorstep, and a negative biopsy.

This has been an interesting thread -- I'm new at this business, and this provides good insight. Let us know how it all turns out.

[K8memphis]

... maybe I'll just say, "Professional and artistic differences", and Shel said, "Yeah, you could say, "I'm professional and artistic......and you're.....different." 

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Best of luck on all three counts -- leaving for greener pastures, having your cat turn up on your doorstep, and a negative biopsy.

Let us know how it all turns out.

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Yeah, what she said. ^^^^^

[kitwilliams]

Nothing but good thoughts for you, Anne. And thanks for starting this thread...though not going through the same situation as you, this info is very timely for me...thanks to all of you who added your experiences and opinions.

[KatieLoeb]

Anne:

Sending good vibes your way. Best of luck on all counts, and please keep us posted.

Turbo, Blizzard and Dulcita are sending your cat telepathic directions home...

[alligande]

Just wanted to say good luck today..... hope all goes well

[K8memphis]

Y'know what though I been thinking? Maybe you should wait to give notice till after you find out the results of the medical thing. It is better to keep status quo as best you can when 'things' are happening. Or maybe ask for a leave of absence until things get settled. Like maybe just wait till later in the week when/until you get the good results back from the doc. I can attest to how depressed you can get without a job & with health problems.

Blessings on you~~ Food, baking and ethical blessings so I stay on topic

[Raoul Duke]

Positive vibes from Cali...........

Raoul

[miladyinsanity]

Hope things go well for you, chefpeon!

[CanadianBakin']

How did it go? Or did you decide to wait a bit?

[chefpeon]

UPDATE:

Biopsy: Uneventful, routine, got the tissue in the jar, now they are testing it. Waiting for results.

Kitty: still gone. Probably coyotes. They are a huge problem here.

Job: Still got one. Was going to give notice on Monday (as y'all know), but was so freaked out anticipating the biopsy procedure, that I decided to wait til Tuesday so I could be somewhat coherent. On Tuesday, boss left early before I got a chance to broach the subject. Today, he

left early again. He doesn't stick around long enough for me to become un-busy enough to

talk!

Frustrating!

It's almost as if they sense something is wrong though.....everybody has been extra nice to me

this week.