Yeasted Bread

[jackal10]

Excuse me shouting but GLUTEN CONTENT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

You can add all the vital gluten you like, and it won't make a blind bit of difference.

If your technique is wrong, or the dough is overdeveloped you will still make bad bread. High gluten allows you to add a little more water, and is a little nit more tolerant to over mixing, but not enough to make a difference under domestic conditions.

[glennbech]

This may is off topic, but a general Bread questions ;

- Does the temperature of the dough affects is "stickyness" ? Is a dough at let's say 70% hydration easier to handle at 15c than 28c ?

- Any tips on how to handle doughs > 70% hydration? I usually oil my work surface, and hands generously with olive oil. However, the dough usually absorb this oil pretty fast, and my fingers and hands become sticky. Once My hands get sticky, the dough just sticks even more... Im sure you all know what I mean .-)

It's very difficult to roll one kilo of such a messy sticky mass into for example a ball.

Resting/kneading helps a bit, I usually notice that the dough gets a tiny bit easier to handle after each rest.

- Low gluten flour sticks less, High gluten flour sticks a lot, right?

[jackal10]

Yes temperature does affect the viscosity of the dough. Cold dough is much easier to handle. Its more about the starch than the gluten though.

High gluten makes little difference to stickiness.

Be gentle with the dough. I supect youa re over working it

If you fold the dough sides to centre a couple of times, it will be a lot more controllable.

Not sure why you are rolling it.

To form a ball flatten the dough slightly, then pick up one corner and fold it to the centre. Turn the dough by 45 degrees and repeat, that is making 8 folds to the centre. Yurn it over and you are there, pretty well. You can push it along the bench with one hand on the side to consolidate, using the frictionof the bench - the dough sort of baloons out on the opposite side to hwher you push it, A light spray of oil should be all you need.

[glennbech]

Hi Jack, Thanks for providing the insight, and claring up the gluten vs. stickyness question.

I'm often using the "side to centre" folding you describe. When I "Hand bake", this is basicly all I do during the initial 10 sec. kneading.

I usually try to give the dough the shape of a ball, by pushing it along the bench, utilizing the friction, after each kneading, before putting it back to the bowl for a rest. I guess I have an Idea in my head that it's good to have the dough as one coherent mass, rather than something I've scooped off the bench with a spatula .-)

One thing that struck my mind, is that you write things like "turn it over", and "fold". When I last worked with a 70% dough, folding and turning is impossible, at least for the first 10 second knead, as it soon sticks to the bench (and hands).

I also think I'll invest in one of those oil spray canister. I suspect I incorporate to much oil into the dough. I use at least one large tablespoon during each kneading. That actually results in quite a lot over 6 kneadings.

I think I'll bake a yeasted experimental dough at 70% today, with cold (15-20c) water and maybe document the process.

So ... I'll try

- Colder dough

- Gentel handling

- Less oil

And We'll se how it goes .-)

Edited July 27, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[cognitivefun]

I've taken to using water, not oil. I dip my hands in water each time I handle the dough and nothing sticks. Dip a utensil in water, ditto.

I think the key to yeasted bread tasting good is long rise times at a lower temperature. Under 72 degrees F. Less important with enriched dough of course.

[Beanie]

I've taken to using water, not oil. I dip my hands in water each time I handle the dough and nothing sticks. Dip a utensil in water, ditto.

←

I use water too and find that it works as well or better than oil. I don't form the dough into a ball during the 10 second knead stage, just knead quickly in a bowl or container and leave it as. The folding phase comes later and by then the dough has firmed up a bit. Dip hands in water and stretch/fold the dough. I don't recall if I've done this with 70% dough (it's been awhile), but I think so.

[glennbech]

I tried a very basic yeasted loaf today with great sucess.

500g flour (Italian '0') 100%

350g water (70%)

10g yeast. (2%)

10g salt. (2%)

The aim for this "exercise" was to handle a 70% hydrated dough. The hypothesis was that making a cold dough, and making sure not to over-handle should make it managable.

I measured my water to 9 degrees, the final dough ended up at about 15c, (but was up to 24 in no time). I kneaded the dough in the mixing bowl 3 times for the first 30 minutes, making sure to not overdo anything.

I baked it for 65 minutes, using a very hot stone on the lower rack of my electric oven. The sone had been warming up at my oven's max temp for about an our. I reduced the oven's temp t 200 and tossed in some ice cubes along with the loaf.

Great results, no sticking when I shaped it to a ball for proofing. The crumb is very fluffy, and cotton like. A real crunchy crust.

I was afraid of over-proofing it because of the temp, so as you can see from the crust (tearing in the gringe), I underproofed it slightly.

Edited July 27, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Beanie]

That looks great. I feel like slathering a big glob of butter on it and eating the whole loaf. What did you do after the 30 minutes kneading? Did you wet your hands to handle the dough?

[glennbech]

Beanie; Thanks! I spread a large chunk of raspberry marmelade on the loaves. mmmm... .-) Me and my wife ate half of it in no time! :-)

I didn't use any oil, sprinkled water both on the working surface, and hands. It works real well! Thanks for the tip!

Since the goal of my little "exercise" was wet dough handling, I took a few shortcuts. I fermented for about 30 minutes (for a total of total 60 minutes fermentation) after the initial kneadings. No time for stretch and fold. I turned on the oven, and proofed while the oven&stone got hot. (about 45-60)

I regret not proofing the loaf longer, as I think It had potential for even more volume. Not that it really matters, it was already ultra light and fluffy...

I was real happy with apearance/texture of this loaf. It is, however, a bit "tasteless". I think I'll try this loaf as a sourdough this weekend or next week. That'll be fun!

Edited July 28, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[jackal10]

If you want more taste use a sponge and dough method. Also pre-mix the flour and the water and leave for an hour before adding the yeast/sponge, salt etc. Gives a chance for the flavours in the flour to develop

[lorinda]

That bread looks fantastic! Did you achieve what you were after (the Italian bread you liked)? How long did you bulk ferment?

[glennbech]

Jack; I'll try tat later. -)

Lorinda; Well... Even though the crumb was very airy and light, with lots of uneven holes, the bread still has a "spongy" feel. With "spongy" I mean that if I poke the crumb in with my finger, the dent bounces back in less than a second.

I did this test with the italian bread (my wife was a bit embarrased at the restaurat, *smile*). When pushing the cumb of the Italian bread I talked about earlier, it took about 4-5 seconds before the dent in the crumb recovered fully.

I'll think I'll try baking with fats, and getting a weaker flour. I believe a lower gluten content will help. The real problem is getting weak flour, I may get my hands on "cake flour", but the suppermarkets really don't have that much to choose from here in Norway's capitol Oslo...

[glennbech]

A question about taste;

I made a real bland and teasteless yeasted bread from 100% pure white wheat flour during the weekend. I mean... It didn't taste a thing. We had to put tons of butter on, and sprinkle with kosher salt.

I have a few Ideas on what went wrong; Can anyone chip in and falsify/verfify my theories?

- Me and a friend took a boat trip for 60 minutes, while the dough was fermenting in the shade outside. It was a yeasted loaf with 1% fresh

yeast. When we got back, the dough had "exploded" all over the pan I fermented it in. It was huge, and had started to deflate.

Can the yeast "eat up" a lot of the starch, so much that it affects the taste of the loaf ?

- I was without my tools, and had no accurate scale. I know I put too little salt in....

- Flour quality... Is there such a thing? The All purpose flour I can get is very cheat (under $1/kg). I have no idea what the quality is. If flour a "fresh" product, that should be consumed within a certain time after milling? If I got "old" flour, does it taste bad/different from "fresh"?

Does bread made from one type of wheat, taste different/better than bread made form another wheat flour?

Im in the dark here, enlighten me ! :-)

[cognitivefun]

A question about taste;

I made a real bland and teasteless yeasted bread from 100% pure white wheat flour during the weekend. I mean... It didn't taste a thing. We had to put tons of butter on, and sprinkle with kosher salt.

I have a few Ideas on what went wrong; Can anyone chip in and falsify/verfify my theories?

- Me and a friend took a boat trip for 60 minutes, while the dough was fermenting in the shade outside. It was a yeasted loaf with 1% fresh

yeast. When we got back, the dough had "exploded" all over the pan I fermented it in. It was huge, and had started to deflate.

Can the yeast "eat up" a lot of the starch, so much that it affects the taste of the loaf ?

- I was without my tools, and had no accurate scale. I know I put too little salt in....

- Flour quality... Is there such a thing? The All purpose flour I can get is very cheat (under $1/kg). I have no idea what the quality is. If flour a "fresh" product, that should be consumed within a certain time after milling? If I got "old" flour, does it taste bad/different from "fresh"?

Does bread made from one type of wheat, taste different/better than bread made form another wheat flour?

Im in the dark here, enlighten me ! :-)

←

Too high a fermentation speed, I would say.

In general, the slower the fermentation the better the flavor. It sounds like a combination of too high a temperature during fermentation, and too little salt.

Salt slows down fermentation. It is amazing how much faster yeast doughs ferment if you don't add yeast. The faster the fermentation, the less flavor.

Of course flour quality is also very important. But good long fermentation is essential to good bread.

Yeast doughs will do quite well fermenting in the refrigerator and the bread will taste better. Or at least ferment in a cool basement at 70F. if you can.

[tino27]

You might want to check out this page ... it has some good tips and a troubleshooting section that might help answer some of your questions.

http://www.kitchenconservatory.com/bread.htm

Salt is definitely important for two reasons: flavor and helping to inhibit the growth of the yeast too quickly.