Animals Rights Protestors Shut Cat-Meat Restaurant

[jo-mel]

Back when we were getting Vietnamese immigrants, people in one area of NJ were finding their pet cats missing. Since a few Vietnamese restaurants had opened in that area, their freezers were checked --- and there were cats in them. To the Vietnamese, they were just roaming animals. Cultural differences. I guess. They really didn't think they were doing anything wrong.

[mudbug]

My understanding is that cats are killed by drowning - clearly not a humane way to get protein on the table regardless of your cultural POV.

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canucklehead,

You obviously did not catch the HBO show on the topic. They are killed by emersing them in boiling water. I won't tell you the rest. I'm sure if I saw pigs and chickens slaughtered I'd be just as horrified. I doubt I would ever become vegetarian but I can definitely appreciate many of their viewpoints in regards to principles and animals.

I am not sure if we are on opposite sides of an arguement.

I have no problem with people eating all sorts of animals (I have eaten more than my share of Noah's Ark). But I feel they deserve to be treated with respect when the are being raised, killed, and eaten. Pigs, cows, chicken are killed quickly. They are not drowned in boiling water. As the world grows smaller - we all must learn to appreciate cultural differences - but it also okay to learn from other cultures.

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I don't really consider any of this an "arguement", but we are on the same side.

Allow me to be more direct in my description. They are picked up by the neck via a hoop at the end of a long pole, submerged alive in boiling water up to their neck and immediately skinned while still alive. They die slowly of shock, not becuase their neck is broken or because they drowned.

[Milagai]

Muslims are disgusted that we eat pigs. Hindus won't eat rats nor cows. I once worked with an guy from India who turned green at the sight of cow meat. I never did understand why Hindus hold rats and cows in high regard (I think they believe that rats are reincarnated humans) and would rather starve in the streets than slaughter a cow wandering by.

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Do you really want to state such a position, which

sounds to me like a parade of ignorance, and at the

very least is a profound lack of understanding of

other cultures?

Hinduism is too complex to condense into sound

bites on this forum, but broadly speaking it includes

both vegetarian and non-vegetarian groups,

and a recognition that all forms of life are interconnected

temporally and spiritually (aspects of one universe).

So many Hindus don't eat rats for a variety of reasons:

being vegetarian overall, not wanting to eat something

that spreads disease when there are better things to eat,

or not wanting to eat something that has a diversity of

religious significances (e.g. vehicle of a specific deity, among others).

(Some tribal sub groups in India do eat rats, along with ants,

iguanas, etc. - all considered forest foods)

Same thing for cows, even more so, connected to ancient Indian

pastoral history when cows were too precious a resource to eat

(considered a living form of wealth, provided milk, draft animals, etc etc.)

Hinduism is hardly alone in tabooing certain animals to eat

for a variety of religious and pragmatic reasons.

And different cultures don't eat various foods, even for non-religious

reasons. Try serving horses or spiders or rats to the average American

and they will most likely turn green too. Just because you find

cows good to eat does not mean others are wierd for not sharing

your tastes.

Try a good encyclopedia of religions for details, not dubious web sites.

And people when starving will eat anything, including other humans.

The average hungry Hindu can't just up and chomp on a wandering

cow, if for no other reason than the owner of the cow would show up

with lawsuits and lathis (= bamboo sticks = weapons).

In terms of money, it's much more economically sensible to

buy 1 kilo of dal (cheaper and feeds 4 people for 4 days) than one kilo of

meat (barely one meal for 4 people). Dal provides very adequate protein.

Milagai

(sorry - nothing to do with animal rights, though it seems strange

to me that people are willing to boil unto death lobsters, but not cats)

[mudbug]

...it seems strange to me that people are willing to boil unto death lobsters, but not cats

The issue here is technique. The technique is not identical.

[jenc]

Humane killing? Can that be a term? Quick and if possible, painless, death for anything I eat is preferred. Not that I'd know for sure, but...

Also very hypocritical of me because I haven't stopped eating foie gras and (milk-fed) veal - neither of which are terribly humane in the creation of the end product. Still, boiling something alive? (*I know, I know lobster..) Skinning while alive? I mean, can't you take the extra minute and smash its head in?

Then you'd have to consider if dying in nature any less painful? I think it's a karma/respect thing in the end if you kill quickly. Also, slightly less psycho connotations, (as thanks to CSI, I know that psycho killers have an affinity to torturing pets! heh), and a generally higher (societal) moral elevation (*subjective and changing, as always).

*edits

Edited June 23, 2006 by jenc (log)

[scott123]

Allow me to be more direct in my description. They are picked up by the neck via a hoop at the end of a long pole, submerged alive in boiling water up to their neck and immediately skinned while still alive. They die slowly of shock, not becuase their neck is broken or because they drowned.

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Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "there are many ways to skin a cat"

[johnsmith45678]

Muslims are disgusted that we eat pigs. Hindus won't eat rats nor cows. I once worked with an guy from India who turned green at the sight of cow meat. I never did understand why Hindus hold rats and cows in high regard (I think they believe that rats are reincarnated humans) and would rather starve in the streets than slaughter a cow wandering by.

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Do you really want to state such a position, which

sounds to me like a parade of ignorance, and at the

very least is a profound lack of understanding of

other cultures?

[...]

Try a good encyclopedia of religions for details, not dubious web sites.

[...]

The average hungry Hindu can't just up and chomp on a wandering

cow, if for no other reason than the owner of the cow would show up

with lawsuits and lathis (= bamboo sticks = weapons).

In terms of money, it's much more economically sensible to

buy 1 kilo of dal (cheaper and feeds 4 people for 4 days) than one kilo of

meat (barely one meal for 4 people). Dal provides very adequate protein.

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LOL, dubious web sites? What the hell are you talking about? My "parade of ignorance" and "profound lack of understanding" is based on educational TV shows I've watched and co-workers I've talked with that WERE ACTUALLY FROM INDIA.

[Grub]

...

Allow me to be more direct in my description. They are picked up by the neck via a hoop at the end of a long pole, submerged alive in boiling water up to their neck and immediately skinned while still alive. They die slowly of shock, not becuase their neck is broken or because they drowned.

...

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Okay, now THAT I didn't know... And that's not right. My aversion to eating cats and dogs may be a result of the society I live in, but to kill an animal in that way seems extremely cruel.

Boiling a lobster alive is different from boiling a cat alive though -- you have to consider the relative advanced/primitive state of these creatures' physiology, or whatnot...

[Kouign Aman]

Not understanding is. It just is. Its not right or wrong. It just is.

I see nothing wrong with stating that one doesnt understand. And no reason to be attacked for saying so. Besides, if one doesnt admit not understanding, when would one learn things that might change that to understanding? (and might not. somethings just cant be comprehended by some folks. Im sure there are Hindus who simply cant understand why johnsmith45678 would eat beef. Thats just how it is.

Not respecting is a problem.

I dont understand drinking raw eggs, but I respect body-builders rights to do so, and that they have what they consider valid reasons.

[Grub]

Not understanding is.  It just is. Its not right or wrong. It just is.

...

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I admit I've had a few drinks tonight, but I've read that post a few times now, and I can't make out exactly what this is supposed to mean...?

[RodneyCk]

I admit I've had a few drinks tonight, but I've read that post a few times now, and I can't make out exactly what this is supposed to mean...?

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I don't think you are the only one who has had a few drinks *scratches head*.

[hzrt8w]

My interpretation:

"Not understanding" is just "Not understanding", there is no "right or wrong" about it.

I think, therefore I am...

[Dejah]

I don't like this topic! Visions of little fluffy balls ( not hair balls) floating around yeowing in my dreams last night. Or, was that the neighbor's cat in heat?

Let's just shut the "restaurant" - thread, down. Please?

[Kent Wang]

It's interesting that most people's justification for not eating cats and dogs is that they are dear pets. Yet many small-scale farmers treat their pigs and cows as pets just as a cat or dog owner, but they have no problems slaughtering and eating them. Just a difference in perspective.

[prasantrin]

(sorry - nothing to do with animal rights, though it seems strange

to me that people are willing to boil unto death lobsters, but not cats)

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If cats and lobsters had the same nervous systems, and felt pain in the same way, then I would go ahead and boil a cat alive. But I somehow doubt they do...

I don't particularly care for lobster, so I'm not one of those who would boil either of the two (and I'm sure my cat would appreciate me all the more for not boiling her).

[Grub]

It's interesting that most people's justification for not eating cats and dogs is that they are dear pets. Yet many small-scale farmers treat their pigs and cows as pets just as a cat or dog owner, but they have no problems slaughtering and eating them. Just a difference in perspective.

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Heheh... Well, a buddy of mine tells me they kept a few critters around -- not a full blown farm or anything, but some pigs, chickens, a cow or two. I don't know about the cows or chickens, but the pigs -- they were all named, after cuts or dishes...

C'mhere, Pork Chop! Heeeere piggie piggie...

[stephenc]

It's interesting that most people's justification for not eating cats and dogs is that they are dear pets. Yet many small-scale farmers treat their pigs and cows as pets just as a cat or dog owner, but they have no problems slaughtering and eating them. Just a difference in perspective.

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I think there's a bit of a difference between a domestic pet and an agricultural animal. Maybe in certain cultures, different animals may be considered a pet, such as the cow in India. But as far as I know, in China, cats are still considered pets, and cows are considered livestock/agricultural.

Edited June 27, 2006 by stephenc (log)

[mudbug]

It's interesting that most people's justification for not eating cats and dogs is that they are dear pets. Yet many small-scale farmers treat their pigs and cows as pets just as a cat or dog owner, but they have no problems slaughtering and eating them. Just a difference in perspective.

I don't know many farmers that allow their pigs and cows to roam around the house or sleep in their bed. I know people who are not farmers that have pigs for pets and they have the run of the house just as an indoor dog or cat would.

I think saying it's "just a difference in perspective" is simplyfying it a little too much.

I think there's a bit of a difference between a domestic pet and an agricultural animal.

If you think more about it, this is a human attribute to classify and the classification comes from where you're raised, how you're raised, and what's "always been done". Seems to me the only people who are not hypocrites about the subject are true (and I do mean true) vegetarians.

[Qing]

To the Vietnamese, they were just roaming animals. Cultural differences. I guess. They really didn't think they were doing anything wrong.

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To Chinese as well, we consider cats are wild animals and put the cat dishes under “Game” section, such as 龙虎斗(The Fighting Dragon & Tiger). They are often served in Cantonese cuisine restaurants, and they bring lots of business for the owners. I heard many Americans say, “Cantonese foods are my favorite!” I guess they don’t know what the Cantonese cuisine is totally about.

Korean took off dog meat while the World Cup, but I don’t think Chinese have to copy them for the Olympic Games. In my opinion, the government forbids people to eat something during a special event has nothing to do with animal protection or even the country's public image, what so ever.

For example, people in China can eat cat as same as gay couples can get married leagally in Canada. Canadians feel proud for their country’s democratization, whether they agree their marriage law or not; and Chinese all feel proud for our culinary cultures, whether we eat cat or not.

I have never eaten cat, and I don’t want try either. In fact, more Chinese don’t eat beef than the people order cat at the restaurants.

Cultural differences.

China is a historical agricultural country. Farmers always consider an Ox or a cow is an important part of the family’s assets, or even the part of the family membership. Many kids’ nick names are 牛牛(Ox or Cow), for the parents wish their kids strong and diligent like the Ox(or Cow).

We pay much more respect to Ox (or Cow) than the cat. It could have many reasons, but I believe as most Chinese believe: Cats are lack of loyalty. I don’t think cat is one of the top 12 Chinese favorite animals, for I don’t find it among all 12 Chinese horoscopes.

Anyway, to me, what is the big deal for some of Chinese who eat cats? That is nothing related for animal protection.

[mudbug]

Qing,

Whoa.... As someone who is 100% Cantonese Chinese, I'd personally appreciate it if you did not so readily generalize "all Chinese" into one lump category and speak from such a specific point of view in a way that sounds like you speak for all of us!

...what is the big deal for some of Chinese who eat cats? That is nothing related for animal protection.

Uh, yes. It is. Because in order to eat the cat, you have to kill it first. The issue here is the method by which they are being killed.

I don't consider cats wild animals unless they're lions, tigers, cougars, jaguars, ligers, panthers, cheetahs... well, you get the point.

Cantonese is about flavor, texture, balance of multiple flavors, etc, no matter what is being cooked. As with all ethnic cuisines, they evolved out of the ingredients provided by the land, by the location, by the climate, by what would keep you alive. I'm proud of the fact that the Cantonese palate is one of the most discerning palates in the world. I am not however "proud" of the fact that anyone - Chinese heritage or not - eats cats. I do however, understand that they do because that's the way it's always been. I also believe times are changing, and suffering during death is suffering during death no matter what type of living creature you are.

I believe it's more specific to region than it is culture in terms of lumping all Chinese into one group.

Respect to an Ox or Cow over a cat is simply because they were not abundant or common. Just as any human tends to value anything which is not common.

To me, cats are loyalty.

The big deal is not so much in the fact that any region of humans in the world eats cats, it the method by which some of them are killed.

Don't forget, cats aren't the only animal tortured upon death for human consumption. Some parts of the world eat monkey brains while the monkey is still alive.

At the same time, is it humane to raise things like chickens, cows, pigs, etc. for mass production from birth in less than decent conditions, plumping them up with steroids and not necessarily healthy foods all with the goal of raising the body fast, so they can be killed quicker, in order to increase production, in order to increase the bottom line? Is it humane to force feed ducks for fois gras?

In South Korea over 2.6. million dogs and cats are, tortured, killed, and eaten. each year. I'm not going to generalize by saying something like "Koreans don't care about dogs or don't respect them." Some do, some don't. But the way the dogs are killed is just as flat out inhumane as this whole cat discussion. To make the meat more tender some dogs are killed by beating, electrocution,burning or hanging. Live animals actually in cages with body parts of dead and decaying animals.

And how about this?

If you're a meat-eater in America, you have a right to know that you have something in common with most of the cows you've eaten. They've eaten meat, too.

When a cow is slaughtered, about half of it by weight is not eaten by humans: the intestines and their contents, the head, hooves, and horns, as well as bones and blood. These are dumped into giant grinders at rendering plants, as are the entire bodies of cows and other farm animals known to be diseased. Rendering is a $2.4-billion-a-year industry, processing forty billion pounds of dead animals a year. There is simply no such thing in America as an animal too ravaged by disease, too cancerous, or too putrid to be welcomed by the all-embracing arms of the renderer. Another staple of the renderer's diet, in addition to farm animals, is euthanized pets -- the six or seven million dogs and cats that are killed in animal shelters every year. The city of Los Angeles alone, for example, sends some two hundred tons of euthanized cats and dogs to a rendering plant every month. Added to the blend are the euthanized catch of animal control agencies, and roadkill. (Roadkill is not collected daily, and in the summer, the better roadkill collection crews can generally smell it before they can see it.) When this gruesome mix is ground and steam-cooked, the lighter, fatty material floating to the top gets refined for use in such products as cosmetics, lubricants, soaps, candles, and waxes. The heavier protein material is dried and pulverized into a brown powder -- about a quarter of which consists of fecal material. The powder is used as an additive to almost all pet food as well as to livestock feed. Farmers call it "protein concentrates." In 1995, five million tons of processed slaughterhouse leftovers were sold for animal feed in the United States. I used to feed tons of the stuff to my own livestock. It never concerned me that I was feeding cattle to cattle.

Source: Mad Cowboy

Cultural differences. I guess. They really didn't think they were doing anything wrong.

There is a fine line there. One of how you were raised and what you learned in one country versus moving to an entirely different country and expecting to be the same way.

You know, for all this talk about animals and food and torture, there are also issues about animals and pets. There was also a documentary which aired less than six months ago on HBO (can't recall the name) about dogs acquired in any way, whether they be strays or from your well-to-do backyard in cities as large as St. Louis. Acquired, dipped - eyes and all - in an acidic bath in below freezing weather and immediately put in outside cages - no warmth, no drying off, cement floors, no rinse of the chemicals. And for what? To be purchased to end up in your local pet store. Literally.

Is it humane to shoot squirrels or cats with BB guns because they're in your flower bed? Is it humane to keep a bird caged? Is it humane to keep a human in a cage all it's life? Is it humane to use pesticides and chemical fertilizers (some of which contain lead) on farms and home gardens only to kill off ecosystems of life in order to attack one bug which is only out for three days?

As far as I'm concerned, the issue here is not just cats. It's about lack of public awareness regarding a multitude of atrocities not only in far away places but in our own backyards. And thank goodness there are some small groups of humans who care enough to not just talk about the issue, but to actually do something to make it better, to get the word out, to educate, to save some lives or at least make their deaths humane, not torturous.

Edited June 28, 2006 by mudbug (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Folks, let's keep this topic on food, eating, and other subjects that relate directly to the purpose of eG Forums. Comments about pets (and other members) are off-topic, and we'll have to close the topic if they continue. Thanks.

[origamicrane]

I'm going to open a can of worms here.

If we are talking about humane methods of slaughter

what are your opinons on Halal and kosher meat?

To me slitting the throat of an animal and letting it bleed to death

seem no less humane then boiling and skinning an animal alive.

and which of these two methods is more humane for killing unwanted baby male chicks?

mechanical shredder or gassing?

mehcanical shredder the chicks die in seconds,

gassing the chicks take 20 minutes to die?

[Grub]

Is it humane to force feed ducks for fois gras?

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Yes -- this has already been covered here on egullet.

[mudbug]

Grub,

Evidently the answer is subjective.

[Sartain]

Coming to the topic late and with just a slightly off-topic question:

was the restaurant serving cat - as in domesticated cats? Or was it serving civets? If the later, I thought that China had banned consumption of civets after SARS? Maybe that was just temporary...