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So, is my loaf totally f****d?


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I have made this bread a few times and had great success. Tonight, in my Kitchen Aid (regular sized one, not the big boy), the dough kept climbing the sides and popping up over the top. I had to keep stopping the mixer and stuffing the dough end back into the bowl. I kneaded it in the machine for an additional couple of minutes and it 'felt' ok when I took it out to rise. Do you think that my loaf is a loss? Why would this happen this time and not ever before? I am making it for my mother-in-law to show her that I can actually make bread (she will give me the recipe for her famous yeast rolls if I can). Is she hexing me :laugh:? Or am I hexing myself?? Seriously, can anyone explain this? Thanks!

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I would bet good money that it will be fine. :smile: I've over-kneaded before, but I kneaded for A LOT longer than I should have, not just a few minutes.

If I were you, I'd just go on and bake it and see what happens. Let us know how it goes.

-Sounds awfully rich!

-It is! That's why I serve it with ice cream to cut the sweetness!

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I have made this bread a few times and had great success.  Tonight, in my Kitchen Aid (regular sized one, not the big boy), the dough kept climbing the sides and popping up over the top.  I had to keep stopping the mixer and stuffing the dough end back into the bowl.

In my opinion, Kitchenaid mixers are notoriously bad at mixing dough. The dough hook doesn't have a little "pig tail" at the end of it to keep the dough down in the bottom of the bowl...and what you experienced often happens. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It seems to happen particularly with drier doughs (wet doughs stay down due to their stickiness). But, I would also recommend different kneading techniques as offered by Dan Lepard and Jefferey Hamelman. They both seem to think that gentle and short initial kneading followed by bulk rise and the folding of the dough is better for flavor and gluten development in breads. I made a ciabatta (of course it is a wet dough to start with) with NO mechanical mixing at all. It came out great!

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I make a lot of bread (and used to make it professionally...oh, how I miss my Hobarts) and agree KitchenAids are not the greatest at mixing bread doughs. The biggest problem is the design of their "c-hook" which is bad design gone amok.

Thankfully, KitchenAid has seen the light and is now making a spiral dough hook, but unfortunately it is only available for certain models. See the link below to determine if your mixer is one of them. It's worth the $20 if you make any amount of bread.

KitchenAid Spiral Hook

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I make a lot of bread (and used to make it professionally...oh, how I miss my Hobarts) and agree KitchenAids are not the greatest at mixing bread doughs.  The biggest problem is the design of their "c-hook" which is bad design gone amok.

Thankfully, KitchenAid has seen the light and is now making a spiral dough hook, but unfortunately it is only available for certain models.  See the link below to determine if your mixer is one of them.  It's worth the $20 if you make any amount of bread.

KitchenAid Spiral Hook

Touchy subject for me. I HAD a 600 Series Professional KA. Lasted 3 months before the gears stripped and the housing cracked. Used it only for bread doughs. The claim is that it will handle 14 cups of flour. No it won't; 10 max. Also really, really poor at kneading dough; constantly overheated the dough, even with the so-called new design hook. Tried kneading 4 mins, relax for 20, knead for 4; still overheated, with poor gluten development. Difficult to get within the 77-81 F range and achieve a proper dough windowpane. The problem being experienced is overkneaded, overheated dough, that makes dense, tough bread.

Replaced the KA with a larger and more expensive Esmach SP5. Made in Italy and purpose-designed for bread doughs, it will handle up to 8 pounds of flour (6 is best), doesn't overheat the dough and works like a charm. Got it through TMB Baking (tmbbaking.com), which is an adjunct of the San Francisco Baking Institute. Check it out.

Kitchen Aid stoned me on a money-back return, saying they would repair it FREE. Didn't want it back at all. Had no ORIGINAL box, so the retailer would only give me an in-store credit. The KA is now a shiny new meat slicer.

Jim

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I make a lot of bread (and used to make it professionally...oh, how I miss my Hobarts) and agree KitchenAids are not the greatest at mixing bread doughs.  The biggest problem is the design of their "c-hook" which is bad design gone amok.

Thankfully, KitchenAid has seen the light and is now making a spiral dough hook, but unfortunately it is only available for certain models.  See the link below to determine if your mixer is one of them.  It's worth the $20 if you make any amount of bread.

KitchenAid Spiral Hook

Touchy subject for me. I HAD a 600 Series Professional KA. Lasted 3 months before the gears stripped and the housing cracked. Used it only for bread doughs. The claim is that it will handle 14 cups of flour. No it won't; 10 max. Also really, really poor at kneading dough; constantly overheated the dough, even with the so-called new design hook. Tried kneading 4 mins, relax for 20, knead for 4; still overheated, with poor gluten development. Difficult to get within the 77-81 F range and achieve a proper dough windowpane. The problem being experienced is overkneaded, overheated dough, that makes dense, tough bread.

Replaced the KA with a larger and more expensive Esmach SP5. Made in Italy and purpose-designed for bread doughs, it will handle up to 8 pounds of flour (6 is best), doesn't overheat the dough and works like a charm. Got it through TMB Baking (tmbbaking.com), which is an adjunct of the San Francisco Baking Institute. Check it out.

Kitchen Aid stoned me on a money-back return, saying they would repair it FREE. Didn't want it back at all. Had no ORIGINAL box, so the retailer would only give me an in-store credit. The KA is now a shiny new meat slicer.

Jim

Jim,

I agree with you. I think KAs are lousy tools for kneading bread dough (I think they're lousy period), but it is tool most home bakers have at hand. And KA will tell you not to knead above speed 2 or so (I'm going by memory) so as to not tax their motors or gears. Yet this is a sub-optimal speed for trying to get any gluten development. So, I ignore KA's warnings and do turn the speed higher, but then as you say have problems with over-heated dough. So, I've learned the art of compromise. When my dough starts to get too hot (but I do not yet have full gluten development) I simply pull it out of the mixer and finish kneading the old-fashioned way...on the bench.

One of these days I'm going to drop kick my KA straight out the window and get a proper mixer, but until I can afford to do that, I've just learned how to work around the KA's limitations.

And I'm sorry if I've offended any KA lovers out there.

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And I'm sorry if I've offended any KA lovers out there.

No offense taken, :sad: I'm just surprised to see so much criticism directed at the KitchenAid.

Perhaps some of you are expecting too much? The KA mixer isn't meant for professional users. It's just a tool that does what it can. For most home bakers it's perfectly sufficient, especially with a few tricks and recipe adaptations like some posters have mentioned.

Or maybe the quality has suffered since I got mine fifteen years ago?

SB (was suspicious when they started offering designer colors) :wink:

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i know this thread has gotten sidetracked, but i have to agree with the idea that kitchenaid mixers have gone downhill in quality.

they are bigger (6qt) with more wattage than earlier models, but somehow don't seem to handle things as well as the old "professional" five quart.

however, aside from that, i want to really push the idea of mixing dough less in general. it really seems to work well and why not try a different technique?

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Well, we have tasted the bread and it turned out perfectly - just the same as always! I was so concerned about having to stop and start over and over again because of the dough climbing out of the bowl, but I obviously am a novice baker and from what everyone has said, that shouldn't make a lot of difference anyway. The KA has worked perfectly in the past to make this bread and I have strength problems in my hands and arms - if I had to knead by hand it just wouldn't be possible, so this particular recipe is perfect for me! Thanks so much for all the info. If I ever start baking more seriously, I will probably search out a better mixer. As SB says, the KA is great for what it does and for regular kitchen use, I love it and can't imagine needing anything else.

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I make a lot of bread (and used to make it professionally...oh, how I miss my Hobarts) and agree KitchenAids are not the greatest at mixing bread doughs.  The biggest problem is the design of their "c-hook" which is bad design gone amok.

Thankfully, KitchenAid has seen the light and is now making a spiral dough hook, but unfortunately it is only available for certain models.  See the link below to determine if your mixer is one of them.  It's worth the $20 if you make any amount of bread.

KitchenAid Spiral Hook

I took a look at this and it would be wonderful, but of course, its not available for my model :sad: I did send an email to them though to let them know that they would sell a mountain of them if they would be available for all models! :cool:

Just a simple southern lady lost out west...

"Leave Mother in the fridge in a covered jar between bakes. No need to feed her." Jackal10

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Well, we have tasted the bread and it turned out perfectly - just the same as always!  I was so concerned about having to stop and start over and over again because of the dough climbing out of the bowl, but I obviously am a novice baker and from what everyone has said, that shouldn't make a lot of difference anyway.  The KA has worked perfectly in the past to make this bread and I have strength problems in my hands and arms - if I had to knead by hand it just wouldn't be possible, so this particular recipe is perfect for me!  Thanks so much for all the info.  If I ever start baking more seriously, I will probably search out a better mixer.  As SB says, the KA is great for what it does and for regular kitchen use, I love it and can't imagine needing anything else.

I'm in the same boat. When my bread/pizza making hobby got going good, I found I had Fibromyalgia and my arm/hand strength has declined. I thought I'd have to give up breadmaking. Since getting a 6qt KA I've begun making bread again. I was disappointed at first. I'm learning how to tweak recipes to make them the same. I found I was adding more flour than when making bread by hand as I thought the dough was supposed to clean the entire bowl. Now my bread is coming out more like it did by hand, by kneading it for less time in the mixer. It's been great for me, just a home hobby baker. And it's also been great for cake making, beating egg whites, whipping cream, etc.

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I'm learning how to tweak recipes to make them the same.  I found I was adding more flour than when making bread by hand as I thought the dough was supposed to clean the entire bowl.  Now my bread is coming out more like it did by hand, by kneading it for less time in the mixer.

After using my KA for bread making about once a week on average over the past fifteen years, I've concluded there is no single easy way to tell when dough has been properly kneaded, ie: cleans sides of bowl, climbs dough hook etc.

I measure flour by weight and start with the minimum quantity called for in the recipe. Then I add more in small amounts until it looks and feels "right". Sometimes I finish kneading by hand, sometimes I don't.

SB (interested in the new hook design) :smile:

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I had the same problem with my bread dough climbing up the hook and wrapping around the head of the unit. Some wonderful person here at eG gave me the crucial piece of information...don't lock the head down (assuming you have the tilting 4.6 qt model). The mixer bobs up and down, and occasionally clunks alarmingly, but the dough doesn't climb. Once in a while I will press it back down into the dough, and that seems to be about right.

I always finish my doughs with hand kneading or folding (depending whether stiff/slack dough).

“What is called sound economics is very often what mirrors the needs of the respectably affluent.” - John Kenneth Galbraith

 

"Not knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of the human condition...The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.” - psychologist David Dunning

 

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I use the HD Professional KA - and never mix more than three loaves in it - and it works terrific.

But, before I put the dough hooks in - I will proof the yeast with some of the warm water and a bit of flour and sugar that the recipe calls for in the bottom. I let it 'grow' for about 5 minutes. Then, I add a little more flour, the eggs (if there are any) and use the paddle to mix it on medium for a few minutes. That gets the gluten all nice and stretchy. It is still only a batter at this point. Add small amounts of flour until you can see the gluten forming. It will be very stretchy and probably kind of lumpy.

Finally, I spray the hook with non-stick cooking spray and attach it. After that - adding the remaining flour and beating it on #2 is quite sufficient.

You can do just about any bread recipe that way - and the proofing at the begining does two things. It lets you know if your yeast is good - so you don't waste all the ingredients if it's not - and it advances the gluten-forming process so you don't have to tax your mixer (or your arms) so much.

I make bread, in one form or another, almost every day and it's proven effective for me.

I'm sure others will have things they like to do also.

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