Are there more men (pastry) chefs...

[tan319]

A member named maggie from East Tennessee posted this in the (Trad to Avant Garde......) thread

"It has always bothered me that the star-making machinery in our business pushes the men forward when, yes, it does seem that there are more women actually working in the business than men. Every year but last, there are nine men and one woman in the PA&D's ten best. Last year, there were three women. I don't for a second believe that ten percent of all pastry chefs in the US are women. I know it's more. And Food & Wine does the same: nine men, one woman. Can that really be the proportion in the savory side as well? I wonder.

So, is it the press, pushing forward the men who push the envelope? Is it us, the women in the business, playing it safe? I know I play it safer than I could. I use sous vide, but I don't write it on the menu. I make foams and use lecithin and love my Paco Jet, but the guests don't know how the desserts get to them, just that they end up in front of them. And I must confess that half the posts Sethro writes, I have NO idea what he's talking about! And I want to, but when I get to work, I get bogged down in the work of the day, with not too much time to play.

Could it be more likely that the men put themselves forward to the press than the women? Could it be that men see the competitive sport of pastry an integral part of the business, where women might not as much? I try occasionally to put myself forward, to get the hotel's marketing person to get my stuff out there, but I don't try very hard, and maybe I should. Maybe we all should. Maybe this should be another thread... "

So, I'm going to get back to this in a few but, as the question came up before, it's clearly time to address the issue.

The ONLY thing I ask, because this kind of men/women issue can be a bit "hot button"

one, is that it not become a pissing match or mean spirited.

Just a few quick thoughts...

It's my impression that people get into PA&D by

A- Being brought to the attention of the editors by other chefs/distributors/writers and publicists.

I don't think doing the competition scene means as much as one might think.

Much to say on this issue but let's get it started first.

[Patrick S]

I couldn't find information from the Bureau of Labor Statistics on the gender ratio of US pastry chefs, but I did find this Starchefs.com 2005 Salary Survey, which may or may not be representative of the industry as a whole. The survey reported that:

Gender imbalances lean towards men in almost every job category, according to our survey respondents. An overwhelming majority of the more experienced kitchen positions are held by men: 89% of Executive Chefs, 82% of Sous Chefs, 66% of Line Cooks, and 60% of Management positions surveyed are male. The only place in the kitchen where women hold a higher percentage of positions is in the pastry department. 80% of Bakers are female, 77% of Pastry Chefs surveyed are female, and 84% of the cooks that work in pastry beneath them are women as well.

[dejaq]

Ted,

with all due respect, you really are opening up Pandora's box on this one.

what difference does it make???I have seen some women PC's that could blow the frigging doors off of us men, their talent is Paramount! both men and women in this industry have it rough, neither of us have an easy time of having to deal with hot headed sub one hundred IQ Chef Megalomanics...Speaking for myself, I have seen fire and I have seen rain, and I am a guy, Please and I beg you, stop fueling these types of topics, they are simply irrevalant. As to who is promoting who, any conspiracies concerning bias, is hog wash, we promote ourselves, independent of gender, now knock it off Ted, I am getting pissed.

Michael

[Patrick S]

now knock it off Ted, I am getting pissed.

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If you don't like the topic, feel free to excuse yourself at any time. I promise, no one will force you to left click on this thread ever again.

[tan319]

Ted,

  with all due respect, you really are opening up Pandora's box on this one.

what difference does it make???I have seen some women PC's that could blow the frigging doors off of us men, their talent is Paramount! both men and women in this industry have it rough, neither of us have an easy time of having to deal with hot headed sub one hundred IQ Chef Megalomanics...Speaking for myself, I have seen fire and I have seen rain, and I am a guy, Please and I beg you, stop fueling these types of topics, they are simply irrevalant. As to who is promoting who, any conspiracies concerning bias, is hog wash, we promote ourselves, independent of gender, now knock it off Ted, I am getting pissed.

Michael

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You're kidding, correct, dejac???

For one, I totally agree with you, both sexes have it good AND bad in this business. for all of the reasons you cited and more.

As far as fueling any topics any more or less, all I'm trying to do, and I think it's my responsibility as a host to do so, is provide a forum for people to have an INTELLIGENT conversation (if you can call it a conversation) about certain subjects.

I think the baking /best choc cake aspect gets covered here pretty well by the members but here you have someone (maggie) who is seeking some honest "answers" or thoughts on the subject.

I think my first post pretty accurately hits on and agrees with you.

We promote ourselves.

We get lucky if we do a course at say, the French Pastry School and attract the attention of someone who maybe looks at our portfolio and mentions it to an editor of 'Chocolatier' or PA&D mag.

Or you're a pastry chef and your Uster rep comes out and ends up tasting some of your menu and starts blowing their horn about you.

Newspapers write about you, etc.

But, if you're not in NY or Chicago or LA, any major media centers, this is all going to get harder, if indeed, you want to try to get your face out there more.

As far as "9 men, one women"... sure in some issues of Food & Wine or B. A. you might see some of that but I was looking at one of my favorite issues of Food Arts, that covered the first Annual Pastry Conference at Greystone and in a sidebar on who made what, there were 8 women mentioned, 5 men.

I just went to my bookcase and randomly picked up three issues of PA&D and all three have women on the cover.

Wendy Isreal

Ilene Shane

Deborah Racicot.

PA&D have had at least two women in their Top TEn for the last two maybe tree years.

In the newest issue of Food Arts, with Ice Cream on the cover, it's my belief that far more women get mentioned in that article then men.

Is it possible that ice cream gets a cover because Emily Luchetti has a new book on the subject coming out?

Maybe, but that's sometimes how PR machines work.

When Pichet Ongs book comes out in the winter we'll probably ( hopefully) see a press blitz.

If you want to position yourself as different, DO list what's cooked "Sous Vide", talk about the Paco to your local food writer if they call you about a summer ice cream recipe or initiate one yourself with them.

If you haven't already done it, get your name on the dessert menu, that's almost more important then the next raise if you're the pastry chef, they're your creations!

I have to emphasize how important research is.

I know exactly what you mean about getting bogged down with stuff at work but, the worst thing any of us can do is stop our "educations" in our tracks.

Sethro is what I call "a seeker", I am too, and if you want to find out more about what he's talking about, search it out, google it, you see some pastry chef mentioned, male or female, that you've never heard of, google them, see if they have a website, etc.

Sometimes the only time we have to do it is at 3:30/4:30 in the morning but we have to do it when ever we can.

On the threads covering the kinds of things like Sethro or me, some others start, I do notice the overwhelming participation is by men, I can only think of maybe two women who would, off the top of my head, on a semi regular basis.

I'm not sure why.

Seeing the numbers on bakers and PCs who are female, I believe it but...

I also think many of those women ( as well as men) are working in resorts, hotels, casinos, bakeries and not media attracting restaurants, etc.

I hope this doesn't come off as harsh, don't mean it to be at all.

[dejaq]

Don’t be foolish, how can you possibly come across as harsh, Patrick on the other hand …

Ted, listen, women have had it rough in this industry, but we men haven’t had a cakewalk either, some of the crap that I have seen, and I mean the high jinks nonsense has been directed toward woman more so than men, both are equally capable of standing their ground, but men are not usually the subject of harassment on the job, and I have found a lot of gals having to tone it back in order to interface with men on “their” level, brash jokes, uncalled for stuff and all.

Locally one of the last Seminars that American Gourmet put out in Gburg just outside of Washington, was probably split 70% women, 30% men,

Having an open ear, a lot of the Gals seemed to come out of a fine dining arena. I can honestly say that La Academie is cranking out more women than men, particularity Asians of Korean and Chinese decent, they typically have an incredible eye, a delicate touch, and pick it up like quicksilver. My number one is Asian, two years out school, when she finishes her tour of duty, I no doubt believe she will make a phenomenal PC.

In a lot of ways your topic has merit, all I am saying is and you said yourself This is a "hot button" subject, can be controversial. Be aware that trends change, just BC PA&D, along with a good number of books may lean toward being put together by us, that is likely to change.

The best Administrators out there, are like cool hand Luke, they leave their emotions at the door.

Michael

[tan319]

I'm aware of the numbers of men VS. Women going to Culinary School, graduating, etc.

I'm a D.C. boy, graduated from L'Academie circa the "Bethesda'Era.

I'm trying to keep this out of the sexual harrasment area, as I don't think anybody is going into the cooking arena, especially woman, w/o being aware of all of that.

But, just to even it out, I'm sure many males (me included) have had our asses pinched by male pastry chefs.

We're talking about:

# of men to women being featured in mags, media, etc.

I think it's fairly to sort of even.

"Forward Thinking Cuisine" is a big deal at the moment, more or less, it's getting a push and the people who have been at the forefront of it, who are mainly men, I suppose, are getting the pushing done.

And what I'm saying is a good number of books, magazine articles, I don't think ARE mentioning men more then women, I think it's a pretty even split.

All of those "to do" points that I mentioned in my reply to maggie are things that were suggested to me by a number of people here over the years so I'm just passing on good info, me thinks.

Just to be clearer, I've ran my mouth about Michelle Myers, for instance of Sona/Boule fame as well as Sam Mason.

Not as much, for sure but that doesn't mean I'm not a fan.

I know you're not saying that, just want to clarify

[nicolekaplan]

huh?????

[Sugarella]

Well considering this is a conversation about women and only nicole has chimed in so far with a "huh" I figured I'd add a female perspective, albeit a female working as an independent rather than for someone else.....

And at the risk of having my head ripped off because everything I've said on eG this week seems to infuriate people.....

"Forward Thinking Cuisine" is a big deal at the moment, more or less, it's getting a push and the people who have been at the forefront of it, who are mainly men, I suppose, are getting the pushing done.

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Without making this about sexual harassment (which it isn't) I do feel the need to mention that men are more likely allowed to get the pushing done, or their work environment is conducive to letting them not only think outside the box, but utilize their employer's equipment and time in order to do so.

Although I definitely think there's also something to be said for where women are working and what kind of attention they're able to attract as a result, as stated above.

Edited to add: Regardless, it's up to each of us as individuals to create our own success, rather than wait for someone else to give the opportunity. And I do believe plenty of people, male and female, just don't bother to make enough noise for themselves.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Sugarella (log)

[nicolekaplan]

"Regardless, it's up to each of us as individuals to create our own success, rather than wait for someone else to give the opportunity. And I do believe plenty of people, male and female, just don't bother to make enough noise for themselves."

amen to sugarella

(i'm just a pastry chef, i can't figure out how to quote someone's post)

Edited June 17, 2006 by nicolekaplan (log)

[tan319]

It's true...

[alligande]

This is a comment regarding the restaraunt bus. in general, when I went to shows ( as owner) talked to reps etc. if I had a male in tow then all reps addresses them, I do feel that there is an underlying perception that the man must be in charge, this despite that all know women in levels of the industry.

That said I fully agree publicity is a self generated and it is all about how you put yourself out there, maybe the art world would be a good analogy, as we all know many of the "great" modern artists where not neccesarily the best of their generations but they were damm good at publicity and self promotion.

I have read many articles regarding women in business (general) that talk about how women culturally do not thrive in the corporate world, because they play as a team not as indivual competitors and so do not get singled out. Which would apply to this situation. Personally I always thought that was BS and everyone is responsible for their own acheivements. (which explains why I have spent my life avoiding corporate situations)

Karen

[chiantiglace]

Whoever said women play as a team and not as an individual keeps them from getting anywhere, or implying I must say, is wrong on more than one level.

Women may be more inclined to play in teams, but they are selected teams. You've seen them at social events, in the gym during school, during any event that requires picking your own group. Girls/Women are vicious. They don't play 'everyone' in the group, they only play the ones that will benefit them. Women have a natural sense for corporate life in my opinion, they may just end up all killing themselves in the team when there is no more competition. I am not sure exactly how the pyschology of it all works, but I think everyone understands the process.

As far as women 'restaurant' pastry chefs, Ted I also agree the topic is irrelevant, but in a less hostile fashion .

From my experience in school and in the work field, women aren't as competitive as men in this sense, specifically this sense. Talking to many of them, they not only do not know about the things I am talking about and or are into, they could careless to take part of similar goals I have. Since I have been here I have only met maybe a half-dozen females with the goals to be a high-end pastry chef at a restaurant. They probably all think its neat in some sort of way, but most of them are here for different reasons, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of them want to make beautiful cakes and pastries, whats wrong with that.

Heres a better question for you, why the hell don't we see more male cake decorators. I mean, we all can, but we don't normally get competitive with it. Have you seen the wedding cake competitions, they are filled with 25-70 year old women, even the judges. The last one I saw had 3 women judges and 1 man. The announcer singled him out at the end too, "and the only MALE judge.....".

So yes, this question is as relevant as asking why aren't there more women that eat steak in perspective to men.

Who knows, maybe one day there will be, but it has nothing to do with equal rights, don't be so hasty to bring up a case with the magazines, they are filled with women writers and employees (who do a great job) and they seem to pick men for the top 10.

P.S. - Just because men have a higher concentration in this area of the field, I don't feel I have any easier of a chance to be top 10 one day. As a male that is.

Edited June 17, 2006 by chiantiglace (log)

[nicolekaplan]

if you stepped into my all female department, you would instantly be killed for even uttering such nonsense

From my experience in school and in the work field, women aren't as competitive as men in this sense, specifically this sense.  Talking to many of them, they not only do not know about the things I am talking about and or are into, they could careless to take part of similar goals I have.  Since I have been here I have only met maybe a half-dozen females with the goals to be a high-end pastry chef at a restaurant.  They probably all think its neat in some sort of way, but most of them are here for different reasons, and there is nothing wrong with that.  Most of them want to make beautiful cakes and pastries, whats wrong with that.

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[K8memphis]

This is great stuff! More more!

[devlin]

This is a comment regarding the restaraunt bus. in general, when I went to shows ( as owner) talked to reps etc. if I had a male in tow then all reps addresses them, I do feel that there is an underlying perception that the man must be in charge, this despite that all know women in levels of the industry.

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I'm just starting up my own business. Apart from the fact that the general biases are true in practically all professions, and I've experienced them myself, this thing this comment refers to is common and unfortunately true, and every time it happens I can scarcely believe that in this day and age it continues to happen.

And it just happened last week when I was buying a mixer. It happens whenever my husband comes with me on these buying excursions, and I'm continually annoyed and surprised. I'm not a shrinking violet, and I'm not overbearing. I just want to get information, and I would prefer we all treat each other with respect and give each other the benefit of the doubt and not automatically assume that because somebody's a woman she must, 1) not be the actual buyer, and 2) be a total idiot about any number of things.

So we're wandering around this guy's big barns full of used retaurant equipment, having made it clear that I'm looking for a commercial mixer, something between a 20 and 30 quart mixer and particular brands. It's my business. I'm the one who's done the research on mixers, and I'm the one who knows what I need, and the whole time this guy directs every comment to my husband. I'd ask a question, and he'd literally turn to my husband and direct his answer to him. At one point he starts in on how one of them works and in the middle of his comments, he says, "You know what I'm talking about?" and then without waiting for a response from either of us looks at me, and says, "I know he knows what I mean."

Next time I'm just gonna wear a burqua and pass notes to my husband.

[chiantiglace]

if you stepped into my all female department, you would instantly be killed for even uttering such nonsense

First of all, what is the nonesense? Do you have a problem with the other side of baking. The truth be told I am not very good at the cake decorating and the upscale pastries, but I love to put together a well composed plate.

People treat this subject so tenderly. Nothing can ever be accomplished if you keep throwing accusations out. From ones experience to another. There is no fact of anything in this nature.

I am not going to sit here and drill anything into anyones head, but if you can't deal with ones experience do not contribute to this. I have worked in all female applications, half loved and adored me, and half hated me. I still can't figure out how to please them all. It goes back to that team thing, if one person feels you are treating another they dont like better, they hold a grudge on you. Then their whole "team" holds that grudge for the sake of not pissing off the initial person. As people come and go in a restuarant I have had women go from hating me to liking me within a day, I can't figure it out. Maybe its me, maybe I treat them differently, I sure don't feel I do.

This subject really doesn't need to get heated at all. I think thats why dejaq fired out so boldly to keep it from happening, because essentially he is right.

If you read enough (which I haven't read much) about human psychology you will know women and men think much differently and treat situations differently. But I am not going to sit here and agree to men being more individual and maybe have a cut-throat ideology to them while women play a more resourceful team game. I am agreeably much more relaxed working with a team of men than a team of women, mainly because I can yell at them, or be yelled at and not take affense or worry about hurting ones feelings. We are very demanding to one another on a kitchen line and there are very few boundaries.

Yes there are plenty of women out there who play just as rough, and I love the ones that do. There are a few females here that have talked to me about hating working with so many girls, and how they have to try so hard to balance personalities. Hey, I didn't say it, they did. And you know what, those girls you can play hard with you go very very far in this area. There are plenty out there, and I don't know if she will let me use here as an example but Wendy chimes in on several subjects like this, shes not afraid of the give and take relationship in the restuarant and she does a fantastic job.

So everyone get mad at each other for discussing this, and we can all leave here with a chunk taken out of our emotions, or just deal with each and everyones comments and maybe their is something we can gain for our mental selves.

[Sugarella]

Girls/Women are vicious. 

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And don't you forget it honey!

Heres a better question for you, why the hell don't we see more male cake decorators.  I mean, we all can, but we don't normally get competitive with it.

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To be perfectly honest, I really do think a lot of men consider anything regarding "decorating" to be either women's work or the domain of the homosexual. I really do. Takes a big man to call himself a decorator in society. If we generally referred to it as cake sculpture instead of decorating I bet you'd find more men comfortable saying they're really into it.

It's my business. I'm the one who's done the research on mixers, and I'm the one who knows what I need, and the whole time this guy directs every comment to my husband. I'd ask a question, and he'd literally turn to my husband and direct his answer to him.

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That happens everywhere though, not just in business, and both men and women are guilty of doing it, too. Just recently I was out to dinner with my Dad and posed a question to my female server, and she of course turned, looked him in the eye, and answered him. A lot of people like to think they're not sexist but it just isn't the case. No point getting upset about it though, because we can't change it and it'll always be like that. Better to just work around it.

A couple of years ago I had Groom's mother (I do wedding cakes and pastry catering) be frustrated with the final cake I delivered. (She wasn't in on the design and it was exactly what the couple wanted and paid for - a little sugar baby hidden amongst the flowers so they could make the announcement at the reception.) She demanded that I get my boss on the phone and when I told I was the boss, she demanded to speak to my husband!

(..... I don't have a husband.... and I was sooooo sorry to have to disappoint her too. )

Edited to add: I agree with chiantiglace that this sure doesn't need to be a heated argument. I'm not heated....

But what people fail to understand is that there are plenty of occupations where women don't get the recognition or go as far as men. It's true everywhere, not just in the food industry. You can blame it on girls being raised to not make noise for themselves, you can blame it on sexism, you can blame it on family dynamics where women have kids chained to their ankles and can't just pick up and go to a new job for the sake of bettering their career, you can blame it on women actually not being as talented, if you want to. But the fact remains that you can't blame anyone else for your own situation, and you also can't credit anyone else for your own situation. You either make the best of your experiences and do the best job you can and try to do something new and different, or you don't.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Sugarella (log)

[chiantiglace]

Sugarella, that has to be one of the funniest stories I have heard in a while. May have been frustrating for you, but if I heard a customer demand to see me after my wife (hypthetical) decorated a cake for them not specifically as they saw fit, I would laugh and laugh.

I would not have a problem (not to diminish your statement) with being known as a cake deocrator, I just cant do it, nor do I really like it that much. I must say when a friend or my sister asks for a cake, I will enjoy it and put my heart and soul into it. But theres something about putting that much energy into something for a random customer I am not too partial with. Don't ask me why.

Though I do agree if it were considered a sculptural contest a lot more men would probably feel more comfortable with it. But them we would get a lot of wicked looking geometrical cakes as opposed to naturalistic floral piecies. there would also be a lot less piping and a lot more building I think.

[dejaq]

   

This is great stuff! More more!

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I tried to warn Ted on this, I am going to pull a "Torres" and sit by the pool, munch on some breadfruit chips and have another Pina Colada.....

[alanamoana]

To be perfectly honest, I really do think a lot of men consider anything regarding "decorating" to be either women's work or the domain of the homosexual. I really do. Takes a big man to call himself a decorator in society. If we generally referred to  it as cake sculpture instead of decorating I bet you'd find more men comfortable saying they're really into it.

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ummm, don't give them (the men) any ideas!

the only really big name in "cake sculpture" is ron ben-israel...possibly some hotel pastry chefs as well, since they have the time/budget/staffing to focus on that type of stuff. but i think it might be correct to say that gender-wise most independent cake decorating businesses are run by women.

i'm sure i'll step on someone's toes when i say this, but i think it is an area dominated by women because often, they can be independent with their schedule and frequently are raising a family at the same time. the only example i can find here on eGullet is Trishiad who does her chocolate business at home (and soon maybe Vanessa "Desiderio") both of whom are raising young boys while simultaneously running a business from their homes.

they wouldn't be able to have the privilege (no sarcasm intended as i believe this is the best thing you can be doing for yourselves and your bambini) of staying at home with their children if they had to work "competitively" in a restaurant kitchen, or for somebody else.

[Sweet Kate]

" And I do believe plenty of people, male and female, just don't bother to make enough noise for themselves."

i am with nicole and sugarella on this one...if you want people to take notice of you, male or female, sometimes, you have to bang on the pots and pans. a journalist's job is to write and sell stories...the public is interested in trends and what is new and different. if you handed me a magazine with details on both sam mason's smoked chocolate ice cream and (james beard award winner!) karen demasco's nectarine crisp, i would flip to the former first. that said, i think karen demasco's flavors are the end all be all and i wish i knew more about her.

as a female pastry chef in chicago, i am in good company. the pastry kitchens at tru, trotter's, nomi, blackbird, mk, spring, and custom house are all headed by women (avec, naha, and spiaggia on the savory side, to name a few). in both chicago and national press about chicago, you hear about alinea, moto, avenues, and now schwa; male run, but they are all new and their food is very different.

thank you to whomever addressed the actual statistics...there are not more male pastry chefs. let's all (boy and girl) pat ourselves on the back for leveling the culinary playing field.

if you want attention as a women chef, find a story, a hook, a dish...just don't make it being a woman in a man's world. that's old news.

[tan319]

RE: REps: This kind of thing happens all of the time to my wife & I.

If we go to look at a car ( her thing) the rep foolishly will start rapping to me, poor guy.

When I did some part time stuff I ran into some male cake decorators, it was about 50/50 female to ,ale

Sweet Kate. Nicole, Sugarella, they all have hit the nail on the head for me, promote thyself.

I'd like to hear who are the biggest influences on female chefs, as it seems the original poster maggie, was starting to have some leanings toward FA.

[Wendy DeBord]

I'm not sure if she has the time or is willing to discuss this in public............but I personally would love to have more insight from Nicole on how to get recognized as she's been. It's clearly implied that you have to self-promote instead of just keeping your nose down to the grind stone.

Honestly, from where I sit it looks like some magic thing that happens when P, A & D 'discovers' you and lists you in the top 10. It was only a couple years ago that I learned chefs hired their own publicity specialists.......... It's not exactly a topic discussed anywhere.......... I have no idea how chefs get featured in the recipe section blurp of P, A & D either. Is it all done by having your publistist contact them?

Just how does this all work? Maybe we could share some insight into this self-promotion topic and help everyone male and female learn how to get ourselves out there.

Maybe it's a female thing.......or maybe it's just a personality trait perfectionists have, or self confiendence we get as children from our parents..........but.........I always know theres so much I don't know about pastry, so much I've yet to master that it's hard/damn near impossible for me to say to someone "I'm a pretty good PC". Where as I see males strut their stuff like peacocks long before they really are any good. Are we like animals in the wild? Males have to grab the attention of females and scare/chase off other males to get to breed, could males be programed biologically to strut/seek attention?

Not that I'm going to let that block my intelligence...........but it's a thought I've wondered about.

I do think we have more biology running thru our veins then we want to recognize. Lord knows we inherit brown eye or blue eyes and a bunch of stuff from our parents we all stuggle with and......... we can be strongly influenced by self confidence nutured by parents or even mentally programed from what we see/learn in society.

[Wendy DeBord]

I'd like to hear who are the biggest influences on female chefs, as it seems the original poster maggie, was starting to have some leanings toward FA.

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I'm influenced by what I see/read. Unless I work with a pastry chef or their work gets published how else could I be influenced by them?

So the same names you read about are who I read about.

I might identify with or emulate a different chef then you but that's still based on exposure to them. If more female PC's were published writing professional level books, I'd be equally drawn to them as I am the ones written by males. What professional level books have women written that are distributed by accessable sources?