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eje

Stomping Through the "Savoy" (2006–2007)

610 posts in this topic

Well, I have to admit I have had scant success convincing others of the charms of the Cocchi Americano.

The usual response I get is, "tastes like vermouth."

Then folks kind of glaze over when I start going on about the subtle orange/cinnamon flavors and delightful bitter quinine notes in the late flavors.

It may be its particular combination of tastes just appeals particularly to me for some reason.

At least it isn't expensive...

No; I'm a big fan as well. Moreover, having made the CR2 with it, I'll never go back to straight Lillet. To be honest, dry vermouth + orange bitters (or better still, Noilly Ambre plus orange bitters) is simply a superior alternative to Lillet Blonde in every single cocktail I've played with using Lillet as an ingredient.

Incidentally, I don't think the Aperitivo Americano holds back the CR2 from achieving that proper balance. I *do* think that adding too much absinthe can mess this up right good. (I managed two drops from the VdF bottle before the mixing glass, shaker, and cocktail glass smelled like anise from about three paces.) I'm indifferent on Pernod vs. absinthe in this drink, although I think I do actually prefer the latter FWIW.


Mayur Subbarao, aka "Mayur"

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Cool!

Well, at least, one other person in the world thinks the Cocchi Americano is an interesting ingredient.

I know I've tried to make CR2s before and not been particularly impressed.

However, I think, at the time, I may have increased the gin to other ingredients ratio.

It does seem like one of those cocktails that rewards careful measurement.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Cool! 

Well, at least, one other person in the world thinks the Cocchi Americano is an interesting ingredient.

I know I've tried to make CR2s before and not been particularly impressed.

However, I think, at the time, I may have increased the gin to other ingredients ratio.

It does seem like one of those cocktails that rewards careful measurement.

oh gosh...whatever for!?

this drink only works with equal parts.

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Just me being dumb and adding more booze.

Interesting, though, when I was talking to a bartender about the Corpse Reviver No. 2, they were surprised to discover that the cocktail was equal parts. They said they had been using the CR2 recipe from Dale DeGroff's book.

I guess he tweaks it toward the tart and strong by increasing both the citrus and gin.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Country Club Cooler

1 glass French Vermouth. (2 oz Noilly Prat Dry)

1 Teaspoonful Grenadine. (Home made)

2 Lumps of ice.

Pour into tumbler and fill up with soda water.

Just didn't do much for me.

I suppose it is fine and all. Might be a refreshing drink on a hot day. Or one of the fancy vermouths, like the Vya, could perk things up.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Country Club Cooler

1 glass French Vermouth. (2 oz Noilly Prat Dry)

1 Teaspoonful Grenadine. (Home made)

2 Lumps of ice.

Pour into tumbler and fill up with soda water.

Just didn't do much for me.

i drink that kind of thing while i'm working...


abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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Interestingly, in this month's Imbibe Magazine there's a big article on the bar scene in Milan and Torino in Italy, "Bitter is Bella".

Campari and Soda, Bianco Vermouth, Aperol Spritzer, etc. all those low alcohol alternatives are apparently very popular there.

Due to a ridiculous glut of bitters at home, if I'm not drinking, I usually go with a healthy dash of bitters, some simple, and citrus juice topped up with soda.

Serves dual function of keeping me sober and familiar with the flavor of the bitters.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Interestingly, in this month's Imbibe Magazine there's a big article on the bar scene in Milan and Torino in Italy, "Bitter is Bella".

Campari and Soda, Bianco Vermouth, Aperol Spritzer, etc. all those low alcohol alternatives are apparently very popular there.

Due to a ridiculous glut of bitters at home, if I'm not drinking, I usually go with a healthy dash of bitters, some simple, and citrus juice topped up with soda.

Serves dual function of keeping me sober and familiar with the flavor of the bitters.

i appreciate the article. it makes my drinking habits seem less crazy. i find demand on the other side of the counter exists for vermouths and amaros especially when you just give someone something to try and remove the financial risk of experimentaiton... on my side of the counter i can't get a single staff member into it. they pound redbulls.


abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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Moderator Note: Merged from "Drinks" topic in response to this post: Millionaire from Cocktails of the Ritz

...

The recipe is as follows:

white of a fresh egg

2 dashes of Curacoa

1/6 gill of grenadine

2/6 gill of Rye

First off, I have no idea what a gill is and no clue how to measure it...

Herein perhaps lies a clue to The Big Question regarding the intended size of the recipes from the Savoy (?)


Andy Arrington

Journeyman Drinksmith

Twitter--@LoneStarBarman

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Herein perhaps lies a clue to The Big Question regarding the intended size of the recipes from the Savoy (?)

Regarding Gills, this post from a certain "Wondrich" over on DrinkBoy is informative:

Eddie Clarke's 1963 Shaking in the 60's

Note that Clarke's standard measure here is a so-called "6-out,"or 1/6 gill; this works out to 5/6 of an ounce, or--well, I'll let the brits here figure out how many ML that is.

Example recipe:

Spaceman

Pour into a mixing glass:

1 1/2 measures Vodka

1/2 measure dry Vermouth

dash of Grenadine

dash of Pernod

Stir and strain into a cocktail glass.

Most recipes a little more than 2 measures, or um, an ounce and a third, if my fractions are in order.

Unfortunately, given the motley origin of the Savoy Cocktail Book recipes, you can't assume every one is either the same size or uses the same measures.

But, in general, yes, the drinks were very small.


Edited by eje (log)

---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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The Cowboy Cocktail

2/3 Whisky. (1 1/2 oz Plump Jack selected single barrel Eagle Rare 13 year old Bourbon)

1/3 Cream. (3/4 oz Cream)

Cracked Ice.

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Another cocktail ripped from the pages of Judge Jr.'s 1927 "Here's How".

I dunno where a Cowboy would get cream, or why he would put it in his Whisk(e)y.

Maybe to cover up really bad "bathtub" whisky?

"Here's How" was published during the period of prohibition in the US. Perhaps I should have used Canadian Whisky (I am not implying here that Canadian Whisky is "bad", just that it might be a more appropriate choice for the time period this cocktail was created.)

In any case, another drink that didn't do much for me, bordering on a waste of perfectly good Bourbon and cream. I didn't pour it down the sink; but, a dash of liqueur or simple would do a lot to perk this up.

If you're going to mix Whisky and cream, at least make yourself something nice like the Barbary Coast.


Edited by eje (log)

---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Creole Cocktail

1/2 Rye or Canadian Club Whisky. (1 1/2 oz Sazerac Straight Rye Whiskey)

1/2 Italian Vermouth. (1 1/2 oz Carpano Antica)

2 Dashes Benedictine.

2 Dashes Amer Picon. (homemade)

Stir well and strain into cocktail glass. Twist lemon peel on top.

I'm surprised to say, this was a little busy for me. I've been looking forward to trying this cocktail for a while now, and it has just about everything I look for in a cocktail, so I was pretty surprised that I didn't enjoy it as much as I was hoping.

It might be my Amer Picon replica making process took the orange-i-ness too far.

But, the combination of vermouth, benedictine, Amer Picon replica, whiskey, and a lemon twist just seemed like too many things going on in one cocktail.

I did make a Liberal, which is basically the same without the Benedictine and with an orange twist instead of lemon, and much preferred it.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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I'll bite: My Creole Cocktail tonight was with Rittenhouse 100, Punt e Mes, Benedictine, and a pre-tinkering Amer Picon. Lemon peel on top, too.

Not busy at all, I have to say. The Benedictine grabs the base in the rye to provide a good foundation, and the spiciness of the Punt e Mes mingles with the lemon oil. I think that the orange in the Amer Picon isn't too pronounced.


Chris Amirault

camirault@eGstaff.org

eG Ethics Signatory

Sir Luscious got gator belts and patty melts

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Creole Cocktail

1/2 Rye or Canadian Club Whisky. (1 1/2 oz Sazerac Straight Rye Whiskey)

1/2 Italian Vermouth. (1 1/2 oz Carpano Antica)

2 Dashes Benedictine.

2 Dashes Amer Picon. (homemade)

Stir well and strain into cocktail glass. Twist lemon peel on top.

I'm surprised to say, this was a little busy for me.  I've been looking forward to trying this cocktail for a while now, and it has just about everything I look for in a cocktail, so I was pretty surprised that I didn't enjoy it as much as I was hoping.

It might be my Amer Picon replica making process took the orange-i-ness too far.

But, the combination of vermouth, benedictine, Amer Picon replica, whiskey, and a lemon twist just seemed like too many things going on in one cocktail.

I did make a Liberal, which is basically the same without the Benedictine and with an orange twist instead of lemon, and much preferred it.

it sounds cool in theory... but all sorts of flavors get punched up and often turn chocolaty... i wonder if bianco vermouth would work better...


abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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I'll bite: My Creole Cocktail tonight was with Rittenhouse 100, Punt e Mes, Benedictine, and a pre-tinkering Amer Picon. Lemon peel on top, too.

Not busy at all, I have to say. The Benedictine grabs the base in the rye to provide a good foundation, and the spiciness of the Punt e Mes mingles with the lemon oil. I think that the orange in the Amer Picon isn't too pronounced.

Interesting!

I will definitely give it a try again with some variation. I don't think I over poured the Benedictine or Amer Replica dashes; but, I may need to re-do the Picon Replica now that Jamie Boudreau has posted an updated recipe.

Amer Picon

Using the fresh orange zest in my replica was probably a mistake. You can see that the cocktail is somewhat cloudy, I think that is an overabundance of orange oils falling out of solution. Still, my Amer Picon replica was quite nice on its own and in the Liberal. I also didn't think it was a crazy amount orangier than a modern Amer Picon I tried a couple weeks ago.

edit - Oh, and being Mr. Stickler man, I have to point out that Punt e Mes, isn't strictly an Italian Vermouth. It is more of a bottled vermouth cocktail. Using it is kind of like using a portion of Italian Vermouth and a dash or two of bitters.


Edited by eje (log)

---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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edit - Oh, and being Mr. Stickler man, I have to point out that Punt e Mes, isn't strictly an Italian Vermouth.  It is more of a bottled vermouth cocktail.  Using it is kind of like using a portion of Italian Vermouth and a dash or two of bitters.

i would simply call it bitter italian vermouth. my recipe for vermouth has a very similiar level of bitter that comes from the wormwood, and orris... i'd like to think it has more complexity in between but more people need to travel to boston and check it out. = )

i only have 5 more liters of rosso before i start making bianco vermouth for the winter.


abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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Thanks for the corrections on PeM. Given my propensity to drinks bitter, that may be why this cocktail worked so well for my mouth.

If you have the "Jones' Bar Guide", check the vermouth section in front for a colorful explanation of the origins of Punt e Mes.

I'll re-read it tonight and summarize it for the Punt e Mes topic.


Edited by eje (log)

---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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The Crow Cocktail

1/3 Whisky. (1 oz Sazerac Straight Rye Whiskey)

2/3 Lemon Juice. (1 1/2 oz fresh squeezed)

1 Dash Grenadine. (homemade)

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Basically a very tart sour whiskey sour, sweetened with grenadine instead of sugar.

Yes, I wimped out slightly on the proportions. 2 parts lemon and 1 part whiskey, just seemed a bit crazy.

I think I would find this more appealing over ice and topped up with soda.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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The Crow Cocktail

1/3 Whisky. (1 oz Sazerac Straight Rye Whiskey)

2/3 Lemon Juice. (1 1/2 oz fresh squeezed) 

1 Dash Grenadine. (homemade)

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Basically a very tart sour whiskey sour, sweetened with grenadine instead of sugar.

Yes, I wimped out slightly on the proportions.  2 parts lemon and 1 part whiskey, just seemed a bit crazy. 

I think I would find this more appealing over ice and topped up with soda.

For my money, that's one of the most bizarre recipes you've come across so far. Mundane enough ingredients, but the preportions! Weird.


Andy Arrington

Journeyman Drinksmith

Twitter--@LoneStarBarman

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re: Crow Cocktail

Odd, eh?

Yeah, as either a very small tonic/shooter or as a long drink this would be OK.

Not the greatest at the scale I made it.

In fact it would be kind of cool to make it as a small shooter, (1 1/2 oz lemon, 3/4 oz whiskey or smaller,) shake, strain into a shot type glass, and then pour in the grenadine, which would hopefully settle to the bottom.

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Crystal Bronx Cocktail

The Juice of 1/4 Orange. (Valencia)

1/4 French Vermouth. (3/4 oz Noilly Pratt Dry)

1/4 Italian Vermouth. (3/4 oz Cinzano Rosso)

1 Lump Ice.

Use medium-size glass and fill up with Soda Water.

Seems like something is missing from this cocktail!

Like, the other 1/2!

Anyway, even though I find no recipes which call for it, I wouldn't blame you if you decided to add 1 1/2 oz of Dry Gin to the Crystal Bronx, and, in fact, I think you would find it quite tasty.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Cuban Cocktail (No. 1)

The Juice of 1/4 Lemon.

1 Teaspoonful Powdered Sugar. (1 scant teaspoon Caster Sugar)

1 Glass Bacardi Rum. (2 oz Matusalem Platino)

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

I was a bit bummed recently to learn that the rum I had been using, Flor de Cana Extra-Dry, is not really in the Cuban Style. It is a Molasses based rum, aged for 4 years, and then filtered. But, an online friend recently informed me that it really isn't very similar to the Havana Club Anejo Blanco.

He suggested the Matusalem Platino as the closest rum to HC Anejo Blanco available in America.

Flavorwise, that may be true, but, the Platino is a very, very light rum. It smells OK and tastes fine on its own; but, once you get it in a cocktail, it is pretty much gone. To me, for all I could detect of rum in this cocktail, I might as well have used vodka.

So, back to the drawing board, as far as I'm concerned, in locating an appropriate 1930s era Bacardi substitute. If anyone has any suggestions, please post, as I have the Daiquiri looming on the horizon.

Largely flavorless rum, or not, this is an enjoyable cocktail. With 2 oz of rum and less than an half ounce of lemon, it is quite dry. The scant teaspoon of caster sugar is the perfect amount, just sweetening the cocktail enough to temper the sourness of the lemon.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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So, back to the drawing board, as far as I'm concerned, in locating an appropriate 1930s era Bacardi substitute.  If anyone has any suggestions, please post, as I have the Daiquiri looming on the horizon.

I like Brugal Blanco. In fact, I think I like it better than Havana Club.

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I was a bit bummed recently to learn that the rum I had been using, Flor de Cana Extra-Dry, is not really in the Cuban Style.  It is a Molasses based rum, aged for 4 years, and then filtered.  But, an online friend recently informed me that it really isn't very similar to the Havana Club Anejo Blanco.

I'm not sure I understand what the deal is. I was under the distinct impression that pre-Castro Bacardi was aged and filtered. Being a different brand of the same spirit made in the same style can still allow for considerable variation in flavor profile. To me this is sort of like if someone only had Wild Turkey available and was told it was not really very similar to Jim Beam (or whatever). It's not, strictly speaking, but it's also not an inappropriate substitute (certainly less so than the subbing of Sazerac Rye in for Canadian Club). For my money, Flor de Cana is the best white rum I've ever had. That said, I've heard so many excellent things about Brugal and I'd really like to try it but for some reason it seems to be difficult to come by in sizes less than 1.75 liters and I don't really want to buy a half-gallon of rum to try (also, big bottles = cumbersome).

-Andy


Andy Arrington

Journeyman Drinksmith

Twitter--@LoneStarBarman

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I'm not sure I understand what the deal is. I was under the distinct impression that pre-Castro Bacardi was aged and filtered.

I'm not either. I have a couple emails out about it, one of which was replied to. The person who replied had recently tried, (and been blown away by,) some Bacardi rums from the 1920s. He actually felt that the Flor de Cana was a very good substitution for the Cuban rums of that time.

Sometimes, I feel like, if you ask 12 different people about rum, you will get 12 different answers, so who knows.

Cuban Cocktail (No. 2)

The Juice of 1/2 Lime or ¼ Lemon. (Juice 1/4 Lemon)

1/3 Apricot Brandy. (3/4 oz Apricot liqueur)

2/3 Brandy. (1 1/2 oz Maison Surrenne Petite Champagne Cognac)

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Well I thought I would take this opportunity to do a bit of an Apricot liqueur taste off.

gallery_27569_3038_8011.jpg

From left to right we have Brizard Apry, Vedrenne Liqueur de Abricot, Rothman & Winter Orchard Apricot, and homemade.

gallery_27569_3038_1760.jpg

First we tried the Brizard Apry. I'm not all that familiar with the Brizard Apry, only having used it a couple times now. Every time I'm struck by the cherry scent and flavor. Not quite sure what that is about. Reminds me a bit of Apricot flavored candies.

gallery_27569_3038_25301.jpg

Sigh, the Vedrenne Apricot liqueur reminds me of Apricot pancake syrup. There is am almost maple-ish flavor there, and that of concentrated dried apricots.

gallery_27569_3038_40385.jpg

Again struck by the fresh apricot smell of the Orchard Apricot. My wife actually thought this cocktail a bit sweeter than the Brizard cocktail. Again, though, a stronger flavor of fresh apricot, rather than apricot-cherry-almond candy.

gallery_27569_3038_13930.jpg

My homemade apricot liqueur was one of the first that convinced me that, in some cases, commercial producers can do a much better job than I. Very little apricot flavor despite it being a whole fruit infusion.

gallery_27569_3038_59547.jpg

Not sure what this means; but, the Apry and the Vedrenne cocktails were foamier than those made with the R&W and homemade liqueurs.

Cocktail itself is all right. The flavors didn't really compel me to finish any of the 4 versions; but, I didn't resent tasting it. Not entirely convinced by the Maison Surenne as a mixing brandy. I think something with a few more teeth might make for more interesting cocktails. Maybe investigate some of the more reasonable Armagnac.


---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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