Time to let the cat out of the bag

[philadining]

To all my friends in Philadelphia:

Any opinions on these restaurants?  Are they the "best" in their ethnic category?  If you have eaten at any of these, what do you remember about them?

Dwight’s Southern BBQ (best BBQ in Phila?)

Merion Station: Hymie’s Merion Delicatessen (Jewish)

Lakeside Chinese Deli (best dim sum?)

Old Brauhaus Restaurant (German)

Thanks, Andrew

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Lakeside serves my favorite Dim Sum in Philly, but it's not really the traditional Dim-Sum experience, it's just a small, plain, bordering on dingy, restaurant where one orders from a menu, not a huge, festive place with carts. Sadly the dim sum scene here is just nowhere near the level of San Francisco, Toronto, Vancouver, or NY.

As for Dwight's, I've never been, but it never gets mentioned when people list their favorites, at least not among the eG crowd. Sweet Lucy's seems to hold the crown for now.

Hymie's has a devoted following, but it's out in the burbs, and more of a neighborhood place, I don't know of people making long pilgrimages to go there. In fact you'll probably find folks that would argue that the nearby Murray's is better. I've never loved either of them. As with the dim sum scene, the deli culture is not huge here, there are some decent ones, but nobody's working at the same level as places in NY. That said, I'm currently fond of Famous Deli at 4th and Bainbridge. But it's not a slam-dunk that everybody agrees on one place...

The Old Brauhaus is a similar situation, there's almost no German food to be had in Philly. There's one place downtown, and this one well out in Northeast Philly, which is fairly remote from the center of Philadelphia. So it might be the best, but that's not saying much! But I've never been there, so it could be great food for all I know. I've never heard anyone rave about it...

Sorry to equivocate about all of these. Of course there will be arguments about "the best" of anything, but I wouldn't say that any of the places you listed would be likely to come up reliably at the top of many people's lists, with the possible exception of Lakeside, and even that is not a hugely popular place.

[cdh]

I've only heard of half of your selections, and consider myself fairly well acquainted with good food in the PHL area...

I've heard of Hymies, and its across-the-street rival, but never bothered to go down there to check them out... I'm in NYC a block from Katz's far too often to go pastrami hunting.

The Lakeside Deli has made it onto my radar, but I've not tried it either. Dim sum is, again, something I eat in NY rather than PHL... maybe if I were here more on weekend mornings rather than up there.

Edited June 28, 2006 by cdh (log)

[philadining]

I don't think any of these places would be exciting enough to put in a TV show...

[Andrew B Hurvitz]

I don't think any of these places would be exciting enough to put in a TV show...

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Thanks for the input.

Andrew

[phungi]

I don't think any of these places would be exciting enough to put in a TV show...

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on the contrary, the old, jaded, and disinterested wait staff at Hymies would make for great television!!!

[philadining]

on the contrary, the old, jaded, and disinterested wait staff at Hymies would make for great television!!!

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That actually would be pretty funny, to document the legendary Philly addytude: that special mix of lack-of-interest and hostility that grows so well in this soil!

[Holly Moore]

Best way to experience Philly 'tude is to order your drink from the steak window at Pat's.

[shacke]

on the contrary, the old, jaded, and disinterested wait staff at Hymies would make for great television!!!

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That actually would be pretty funny, to document the legendary Philly addytude: that special mix of lack-of-interest and hostility that grows so well in this soil!

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Agree with Philadining. I love Lakeside and have for years. I go to Hymie's frequently but I live around the corner. It's not that great - it's mediocre. Don't know of the others.

[shacke]

Negril? Naaah.  Maybe.  Already discovered.

But let's make a date for next weekend to do a little location scouting up 14th Street and Georgia Avenue where yuppies like us are afraid to go.  Been meaning to do that for a long time, this would be a good excuse.

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Should we hit it before or after Komi Let me know when and I am there.

Hello, Folks-

I am going to be working on Chris Cognac's new show, doing research.

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Andrew-could you tell us about how you are conducting your research, other than reading eG? Will you be coming to the different cities and trying the restaurants out? How do you decide what's in and what's out? How much do we have to bribe you to make sure our favorites make the cut?

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I've been using a number of Philadelphia sources to try and find the best and the undiscovered, but those two categories are usually not mutually exclusive. I posted a new topic, "Philadelphia's Best" to try and see if anyone had any comments on four restaurants. I would link you to that post but I don't know how to work this Egullet thing.

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I will add my two cents

Marchiano's bakery is really undiscovered.

Carman's for breakfast

Capogiro for beyond world class gelato

Fisher's pretzels in the Reading Terminal Market

Gosh there is so much....

Evan

[rjwong]

I've been using a number of Philadelphia sources to try and find the best and the undiscovered, but those two categories are usually not mutually exclusive.  I posted a new topic, "Philadelphia's Best" to try and see if anyone had any comments on four restaurants.  I would link you to that post but I don't know how to work this Egullet thing.

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Andrew, here's the link to the Philadelphia's Best discussion thread.

BTW, it's spelled eGullet, my fellow Angeleno.

[philadining]

I know I'm coming to this a little late, I'm sure you've been getting good guidance from Holly and Katie et al. But Andrew's questions in the Philly forum got me thinking: I know you want to visit places that aren't the obvious choices, but even so, i think you might be on the wrong track to try to get dim sum, or German food, or deli or barbecue... Yeah, there are acceptable versions of that stuff, but they're not going to be the exciting finds you'd like to feature.

I suspect you might want to focus on either non-touristy manifestations of things uniquely Philly (the hoagie, the Roast Pork sandwich, the surf-and-turf hot dog, etc) or some odd spots that just happen to exist here, and are unusual enough to be interesting (like our Burmese restaurant called Rangoon, or a tiny Indonesian place in deepest Italian South Philly called Hardena, or The Irish Coffee Shop in Upper Darby, where one can get huge, cheap, traditional Irish breakfasts all day - and the twist - the owner/cook is not Irish, he's Mexican. www.irishcoffeeshop.com)

I think that could be an amusing conceit: to set-up how Philly is famous for the cheesesteak, but don't get one of those, get a pork sandwich instead. Go down into the Italian neighborhood and eat Indonesian food. Chow down on an Ulster fry, served by a waitress with an authentic Irish brogue then go meet the cook named Raphael. Pass all the roast ducks and dumplings in Chinatown and eat ginger salad and Thousand-layer bread at Rangoon.

On the slightly more conventional end, there's all kinds of good, hearty, homey Italian food to be had, and plenty of the places are off the beaten track, out-of-towners would never find them. We've got great gastropubs in neighborhoods unsullied by tourists. We've got little BYOB restaurants that are great bargains, and serve interesting food.

Sure, you could find an OK deli, and your viewers will think that they've seen better sandwiches than that.... You could get German food, and everyone in the midwest will just shake their heads at the slim pickings... You could get good dumplings, but the SanFransicans will think "eh"... You could get some good barbecue, but all of the south will be unimpressed...

What's especially good, and unique, in Philly is:

The Roast Pork Italian sandwich, with broccoli rabe and sharp provolone. Eat one and you forget all about cheesesteaks. Go to DiNic's or Tony Luke's.

A Real Philly Hoagie, from Sarcones, or Primo's, or anyplace near the top of Holly's list, featuring amazing bread, excellent cold cuts, lettuce-tomatoes-peppers-spices, and some good oil. It really is different from a sub sandwich.

Homey Italian food (not exactly unique, but as ubiquitous and well-developed here as in any city... )

Burmese food. Not that there's a big Burmese community here, but there's a very good restaurant. There's one in DC, one in San Francisco, one in NY, so you could do this in those cities, but I can't vouch for those restaurants. I CAN say that Rangoon in Philly is really good!

Irish. There are lots of Irish people in Philly, new arrivals as well as established communities. Sure, there are probably more Irish in Boston, but do they have a coffee shop serving outrageously good breakfasts cooked by a Mexican guy?

Gastropubs. The Standard Tap is the best example.

BYOBs: I suspect this isn't the style of food you're focusing on, but it's a very Philly-centric phenomenon, much of the most exciting cooking has been happening in these small, fairly inexpensive places, almost always run by husband-and-wife duos.

The surf-and-turf dog is just weird. Which is probably a good reason to do it!

The Indonesian place is just unexpected enough to be interesting. You could get a similar effect by panning from the famous cheesesteak corner with Pat's and Genos over to the Vietnamese Bahn Mi stand next door, or the Taqueria next door to that, or up one block for some Lebanese grilled Falafel. Not so far off the beaten path, but not where the tourists think to go.

This is a very long-winded way to say that I just think it would be very anticlimactic to eat dim sum, deli, barbecue, or German food here. There are more unusual, yet typical, places to go.

Hope that helps...

Edited June 28, 2006 by philadining (log)

[Chris Cognac]

you guys are gonna kill me by the time this show is finished....does anyone know of a good heartburn medicine I can endorse?

I spoke on the phone with Holly More today, I was interested on the Amish place....anyone been there? Holly said its pretty good and would work....Holly and I are going to do a Cheesesteak segment and maybe some other stuff involving meat and bread...

[rlibkind]

Famous Fourth Street is way ahead of any other Jewish style deli I know of in town and nearby burbs, including Hymie's. As good as the pastrami is (it may not be Katz's but it is still very good) I think their dinner platters take the cake (be prepared to take a lot home, including most of the humongous slab of blackout cake, should you order it . . . and you should, you should).

[KatieLoeb]

Holly and I are going to do a Cheesesteak segment and maybe some other stuff involving meat and bread...

Meat and bread leaves you many options here. The Schmitter, the aforementioned Roast Pork Italiano at Tony Luke's, DiNic's or John's Roast Pork, hoagies at Chickie's Deli, etc.

Other non-meat options might include grilled falafels at Bitar's (one of the best vegetarian options in the city), the Veggie Hoagies at Chickie's (you gotta eat one of these 'cuz they're unbelieveably good), or any one of a number of vegetarian possibilities at Reading Terminal Market.

Dude - the "on bread thing" rules here. There's a rich and satisfying "sandwich culture" in the City of Brotherly Hoagies/Cheesesteaks/Grinders/Italianos, etc. It's about the bread (Sarcone's vs. Amorosos), but it's also about the fillings.

We got the sandwich thing down.

[Rich Pawlak]

Old Bruahaus will be closing soon for good, as the family has decided that enough is enough, and none of the children wish to carry on the family business. Very good place in its day. Last shreds of decent German cooking in Philly remain at Ludwig's Garten in Center City, Otto's in Horhsam, Pa, and Austrian Village in Rockledge, PA.

[gwilson]

About Atlanta:

If you want fried chicken for one segment, I think that you will want to go for one of the meat and threes. There is a bit of a fried chicken heirarchy in Atlanta, but none of the places would really fit your show. (See Watershed, Colonnade, Greenwood's, Mary Mac's, Restaurant Eugene, etc. None are really 'off the beaten path', and some have already been featured on FTV.) There are a ton of meat and threes to choose from. As far as choosing a best one, it would be hard. In the short-lived 'Atlanta research' thread, Gifted Gourmet and others gave a good list for you to choose from. Another that I would like to add is Marie's Cafe. They have some of the best collard greens that I have ever had. And all of their food is exceptional. (To be fair, the owner is a friend of mine. But I feel I can put that aside in evaluating the food there.) And I'm still working on more information about Atlanta fried chicken for you.

I have a question about the show. Geographically, how far are you going in each city? Atlanta is pretty spread out, especially for a city of its population. We have a beltline (285 - locally referred to as the Perimeter) that encloses Atlanta proper and other surrounding cities. But metropolitan Atlanta spreads quite a bit past the Perimeter. Maybe to put it in better terms - for the L.A. show, would you include, for example, Torrance or Long Beach as part of L.A.? In Atlanta, if you stick to just inside the Perimeter, your choices will be significantly reduced. That's good to cut down on the possibilites, but also bad as you're cutting out some really good options.

One more thing for you to consider. Atlanta, like any other large town, has an abundance of non-American cuisines to choose from, in varying degrees of 'authenticity'. Besides the obvious (Chinese, Italian, etc.), off the top of my head I can think of Vietnamese, Korean, Thai, Australian, Indian (both North and South), Persian, South African, Ethiopean, Moroccan, Brazillian, Mexican, Columbian, Guatamalan, Cuban, Jamaican, and Peruvian. And most of these options are quite cheap. And I remember someone mentioning Kool Korners grocery. That (from how I understand your show) is exactly what you are looking for. The outside really doesn't look like much at all - neither does the inside come to think of it. But the cuban sandwiches are incredible. It's been around for a very long time. As has the owner - he's in his eighties, I believe. Would make a great story.

Ah! Knew I forgot something... How long are you going to have in each city (Atlanta anyway)? Or is it not planned out that far yet?

Chris, again, good luck with this whole thing. Let us know if you need any help at all.

-Greg

Edited June 28, 2006 by gwilson (log)

[marinade]

I’d give a serious pass on Dwight’s. The ribs are par-boiled and then grilled. The fat isn’t rendered but comes back to you studded around the meat.

I’m in walking distance from Hymies. It’s not that much different food wise from Murray’s across the street. They sort of run a Pat’s Steaks and Geno’s rivalry. There may be (or once were) better examples of Lower East Side deli’s in the Delaware Valley, some other folks may be able to chime in. My favorites were the ones in the Overbrook section of the city. You can smell the real thing as soon as you walk in.

I never heard of the Lakeside restaurant referred to as Lakeside Chinese Deli. Lakeside does good dim sum. They’ve picked up some Best of Philly (Mags) hits in the ‘80’s and maybe the ‘90’s. Again you’ll get a range of opinions as to which is the best dim sum house.

Jim

[JanMcBaker]

Old Bruahaus will be closing soon for good, as the family has decided that enough is enough, and none of the children wish to carry on the family business.  Very good place in its day.  Last shreds of decent German cooking in Philly remain at Ludwig's Garten in Center City, Otto's in Horhsam, Pa, and Austrian Village in Rockledge, PA.

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Actually, the Brauhaus is already closed. I think it closed at the end of May.

[mod*betty]

Best way to experience Philly 'tude is to order your drink from the steak window at Pat's.

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Or even order it at the drink window! I recently had a toothless guy working the window loudly call me FATTY because I wanted a Diet Coke. And while I sometimes complain about my physique, I definitely am not in the Fatty category.

[Holly Moore]

you guys are gonna kill me by the time this show is finished....does anyone know of a good heartburn medicine I can endorse?

I spoke on the phone with Holly More today, I was interested on the Amish place....anyone been there? Holly said its pretty good and would work....Holly and I are going to do a Cheesesteak segment and maybe some other stuff involving meat and bread...

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The Amish place is the Dutch Eating Place in the Reading Terminal Market.

Got another suggestion for breakfast. 5:30 AM on Delaware Avenue. Johnny's Hots. Your clue that it has to be good: Plant workers and truck drivers lined up for a sausage, fried egg, peppers and onion sandwich on a roll.

[stephenc]

My opinion is that Lakeside isn't the best dim sum in Philly.

[Neuronix]

My opinion is that Lakeside isn't the best dim sum in Philly.

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Which one is? I've been to all the dim sum joints in Philly I know of and I just keep coming back to Lakeside now. Sure, it's not the traditional carts experience, but that's the nice part. All the food comes very fresh right out to your table and is still just as cheap. Food quality is just as good if not better than the other places, and you get a bigger selection, as opposed to whatever has been on the cart for 3 hours. Service tends to be very friendly to boot.

For Jewish Deli, is Koch's still in the running? I don't think it's the same place since Bob died, but it's still darn good.

Edited June 28, 2006 by Neuronix (log)

[MarketStEl]

As a Kansas Citian by birth and upbringing, I must question your interest in 'cue in Philly, as it's really an imported item that the locals botch as often as they get it right (I mean, Famous Dave's as a "Best of..."?), but then again, so is German food (though Germans were the original "Them" in this state--Benjamin Franklin railed against German immigrants in the 1700s the way talkers go on about Mexicans today), and so is New Orleans cuisine, which I fervently hope I will be able to report on from Chester sometime tomorrow.

Be that as it may, there's a pretty decent hole-in-the-wall in a West Philly neighborhood most folks don't venture to--not even the folks on this board, who go everywhere--that serves pretty good 'cue, IME. The sauce is Carolina-style, which is to say, vinegar-based.

It's called (IIRC) Belmont Bar-B-Q, and it's near the corner of 55th and Baltimore Avenue. I could always arrange to route my trip home from work via Angora Regional Rail station and walk over there to meet someone.

BTW and FWIW, I had the best doughnut I've eaten in quite a long time about a week ago from a bakery right up the block from the Chester train station. It's only open in the morning (5 am-1 pm), and it looks like their stuff goes quickly--by the time I swung by at 7:35 on a weekday morning (the bus I catch to Widener idles right next to the station), two-thirds of their trays were already empty. The place is called Phatso's, and it's won a slew of Daily Times "Best of Delco" awards. More on this too if you like.

Edited to fix dyslexic spelling of "doughnut."

Edited June 28, 2006 by MarketStEl (log)

[philadining]

My opinion is that Lakeside isn't the best dim sum in Philly.

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And the winner is????

[Chris Cognac]

you guys are gonna kill me by the time this show is finished....does anyone know of a good heartburn medicine I can endorse?

I spoke on the phone with Holly More today, I was interested on the Amish place....anyone been there? Holly said its pretty good and would work....Holly and I are going to do a Cheesesteak segment and maybe some other stuff involving meat and bread...

←

The Amish place is the Dutch Eating Place in the Reading Terminal Market.

Got another suggestion for breakfast. 5:30 AM on Delaware Avenue. Johnny's Hots. Your clue that it has to be good: Plant workers and truck drivers lined up for a sausage, fried egg, peppers and onion sandwich on a roll.

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That is right up my alley as well....the "on a bun" theme is begining to build up...ughh....530 am....is 230 for me....ugh, ugh...that time change is gonna kill me...maybe we can shoot that on the 2nd or 3rd day..