Dessert Philosophy from "Trad to Avant Garde"

[tan319]

A few members, notably akwa & Alex Stupak and xdrixn, all pro pastry chefs, asked about a new thread starting from a NY Forum thread about a new dessert restaurant.

New Dessert Restaurant

I threw this up as a thought over there...

"True, and by my earlier post I didn't mean to imply that I thought Stupak is not soulful.

Indeed, a Clio dessert menu I saw that a friend who dined there a few years ago brought back was inspirational.

The menu items I saw from Alinea seemed very sci fi, more so then even Adria, and Sams desserts, from what I've seen, always seem connected to dessert, does that make sense?

Provocative, unusual at times but always looking ( and sounding) delicious.

The "chocolate band" of Stupaks seemed sort of "cold" and that was a surprise to me.

Either way would be a rough decision.

Maybe wd50 would afford him a chance to work some of those "classic" angles back in while leaving him the room to experiment with ingredients, etc."

Alex and akwa said this (edited)...

"QUOTE(akwa @ Jun 6 2006, 01:43 PM)

shouldnt this be a different thread

wg

From Alex Stupak

"im agreeing with akwa on this one.........if anyone wants to start a thread on dessert philosophy and approach im all for it cause i have a lot to say...."

Alex Stupak, a GREAT pastry chef who is currently at Alinea in Chicago, which most would say is one of the most forward thinking restaurants in the US, was recently profiled with a signature dessert in Pastry Art & Design.

One of the things he mentioned was coming into pastry and desserts from the savory side and how he never ( if I'm remembering this correctly) mentored under a pastry chef.

That's something many have done, gotten into it from the "hot" side.

Pichet Ong came into it that way, I believe.

Many pastry chefs have also been self taught,like Pat Coston, to name but one.

Then there are others, like Sam Mason or Nicole Kaplan, who started out from the gitgo in pastry. I think both staged with Pierre Herme at some point and other pastry chefs even though Mason also staged or worked with a chef whom I consider the premier French savory & dessert chef operating in the US, Michel Richard.

Will this make a difference in how dessert is approached, looks wise especially?

Is one reigned in or freed by what they have encountered ?

Here 'ya go!

[dejaq]

A few members, notably akwa & Alex Stupak and xdrixn, all pro pastry chefs, asked about a new thread starting from a NY Forum thread about a new dessert restaurant.

New Dessert Restaurant

I threw this up as a thought over there...

"True, and by my earlier post I didn't mean to imply that I thought Stupak is not soulful.

Indeed, a Clio dessert menu I saw that a friend who dined there a few years ago brought back was inspirational.

The menu items I saw from Alinea seemed very sci fi, more so then even Adria, and Sams desserts, from what I've seen, always seem connected to dessert, does that make sense?

Provocative, unusual at times but always looking ( and sounding) delicious.

The "chocolate band" of Stupaks seemed sort of "cold" and that was a surprise to me.

Either way would be a rough decision.

Maybe wd50 would afford him a chance to work some of those "classic" angles back in while leaving him the room to experiment with ingredients, etc."

Alex and akwa said this (edited)...

"QUOTE(akwa @ Jun 6 2006, 01:43 PM)

shouldnt this be a different thread

wg

From Alex Stupak

"im agreeing with akwa on this one.........if anyone wants to start a thread on dessert philosophy and approach im all for it cause i have a lot to say...."

Alex Stupak, a GREAT pastry chef who is currently at Alinea in Chicago, which most would say is one of the most forward thinking restaurants in the US, was recently profiled with a signature dessert in Pastry Art & Design.

One of the things he mentioned was coming into pastry and desserts from the savory side and how he never ( if I'm remembering this correctly) mentored under a pastry chef.

That's something many have done, gotten into it from the "hot" side.

Pichet Ong came into it that way, I believe.

Many pastry chefs have also been self taught,like Pat Coston, to name but one.

Then there are others, like Sam Mason or Nicole Kaplan, who started out from the gitgo in pastry. I think both staged with Pierre Herme at some point and other pastry chefs even though Mason  also staged  or worked with a chef whom I consider the premier French  savory & dessert chef operating in the US, Michel Richard.

Will this make a difference in how dessert is approached, looks wise especially?

Is one reigned in or freed by what they have encountered ?

Here 'ya go!

←

Hey Ted,

I would be honored to offer my input, but let me get thru this days production first.

Eventually, I will be conducting interviews with some of the local Chefs here in the DC area for the online Zine to be built out by the fourth quarter of this year, but in the meanwhile I'll offer my ideology on the craft and the profession as a whole for our EG readers.

Michael

[alanamoana]

Maybe it is laziness, or maybe just a lack of patience on my part...but I don't tend to experiment too much with technique with regard to creating desserts. I think working within the confines of existing technique and flavor combinations to be enough of a challenge without introducing "molecular gastronomy" into the equation.

This doesn't mean that I look down on the creativity expressed by pastry chefs attempting new and exciting methods. On the contrary, I look to them for inspiration and education. However, I do feel that there should be, as Ted mentions, a "connection" to desserts. I take this to mean that, as a dessert, a dish shouln't be so intellectualized that you don't even realize you're eating a dessert. But I feel this way with all food. I think there is something vital, call it soul if you like, about eating food that negates a need for intellectualization (is that a word?).

Ultimately, I guess this makes me a traditionalist. But I'm sure that once certain techniques make it into the mainstream, I'll be eating my words (I do have some sodium alginate floating around the house somewhere...I'm a late bloomer ). Even that technique isn't too far fetched in my opinion. It is when you're eating ice cream crumbs or cake dust or something so strongly flavored that it becomes unpalatable that I question the goal.

Can you really achieve the same sense of joy in eating crumbs of ice cream as opposed to biting into a delicious scoop of ice cream in a freshly made waffle cone? I understand the need to push the envelope of creativity, there's no reason to have molten chocolate cake and vanilla creme brulee on every menu...BUT can we also take it too far?

[xdrixn]

I believe there is an inverse correlation between what is nostalgic from whatever reference point we may have, to seeking out the new. This may apply to the music/clothes/literature we enjoy now to that of what we enjoyed in our younger days. One may or may not want to prepare...oh let's apple pie with vanilla ice cream day in/out but we all agree if it were put it front of us we would enjoy it and be grateful because apple pie with vanilla ice cream is iconic. Our species is young and our icons may change. ...I have more to say but I'm late for work!!!! doh! before I go and to lessen the intellectualiztion a bit. I think sam mason said it best "To be able to caramelize a perfectly seasoned piece of apple, and mimic the texture, yet be able to get any shape you want, Well .........thats why I come to work everyday."

Edited June 7, 2006 by xdrixn (log)

[dejaq]

Everything that I do in the lab harks back to a traditional respect for the purity of food taste. A very good majority of tinkering even is based on a platform of paying homage to formulas derived from over twenty years ago, heck the Germans were messing around with Bavarians over seventy years ago. Many more "exotic", eclectic presentations, along with palate teasers, to be certain are pushing the envelope to new highs. There is a place under the sun for all of it, but it doesn't work everywhere, neither is it appreciated in all fifty states. Try giving an Avocado gelato, or a red beet sorbet to someone in Kalamazoo, just see what happens, hint, keep it real, know your Audience, the guys in NY are Adventurous cause they can get away with it, I can be bold in DC, B/C, even though Washingtonians are conservative, and low key, everyone digs a "cool" looking and better yet, terrific tasting dessert. I have for the last couple of years been compelled to keep a low profile myself, just B/C of the outfits I was working for, no expositions, no press, no contests, no attention, that was then, this is now, as they say.

Herme has the following ideology:

you Ain't goona need it

My theory, is slightly different, if there was an Analog-Pastry Chef to Film Director,

I would consider myself like James Cameron.

Cameron understands the physics of what makes it tick, so do I, he is an accomplished graphic Artist, I too have studied Art in College, and have the ability to sketch it out initially, or go one step further, for Example a showpiece, build in Maya, digitally, and replicate to chocolate or sugar.

It’s this layering effect "one stage, multiply build on another, and another, offering synergy, yet complexity, in taste texture and aesthetic, that makes it beyond good, it makes it terrific...

Now that's what I am talking about...

Michael

[tan319]

To add my two cents ala minute,

I'm always excited to learn a new technique or use a new ingredient.

In my own things i tend to start with an idea and then probably reinterpret it somewhere, depends on where I'm working, what I can get away with w/o alienating people, etc.

A lot of times , I think the management doubt the ability of the clientele to get their heads around something like an avocado dessert component or the chef just hates that kind of stuff.

Read the May GQ (Christine Aguliara(SIC?) on the cover) for a terrific article on the chefs of Alinea, MOTO and Avenues in Chicago.

Giving your people the Same Old Shit because every other place is has never made sense to me.

At the same time, I don't feel people should feel compelled to try VersaWhip or Gellen or Agar just because it's new.

You have to be comfortable and do what you do best.

I feel slightly foolish now about feeling Stupaks dessert was "cold-ish" just because it defied a "reference" point (A Mason plate always has a certain "direction", to me.)

Sauce placement, the 'schmear of the spoon, the quenelle of sorbet or ice cream will make me think of Balaguer or Adria or Gagnaire, a billion other people and, in fact, often it's not that concrete a reference for me.

Mason is now an reference onto himself, as Ong, Stupak, Izunni, et al are.

It's just, as alanamoana sez, "a connection" that can make us feel comfortable.

Have to say, ice cream crumbs or scoops, both appeal to me, the whole thing does.

PS: BTW: I REALLY hope Alex stops in, akwa too.

I know both are busy but this ones for you guys too.

[akwa]

someone asked me the other day why i tried to make new stuff

and i asked him why it was more interesting to make old stuff

i dont understand the controversy

if you prefer to seek out new ideas technologies products and inspirations you have the potential to add to the body of work, and this is perfectly acceptable way to contribute to the community

if you prefer to revisit traditional ideas etc, you will probably make more people happy and be able to make more money

i dont see why there is any inherent conflict, caring is what is important

if you are caring about your preparation then it will be a sincere reflection of yourself, and then it is a success

[docsconz]

someone asked me the other day why i tried to make new stuff

and i asked him why it was more interesting to make old stuff

i dont understand the controversy

if you prefer to seek out new ideas technologies products and inspirations you have the potential to add to the body of work, and this is perfectly acceptable way to contribute to the community

if you prefer to revisit traditional ideas etc, you will probably make more people happy and be able to make more money

i dont see why there is any inherent conflict, caring is what is important

if you are caring about your preparation then it will be a sincere reflection of yourself, and then it is a  success

←

This can be applied to almost anything in life - nicely said, akwa.

[dejaq]

Yes Akwa, I concur, it’s incredibly easy to emulate and replicate, true proprietary creation, in my opinion comes intrinsically, skills can always be acquired, learned if you will, but to dynamically link it all together and call it something new comes only so often. The hard line Pros no this, we use it to our advantage, this goes far beyond the peripheral elements of fundamental “parts bin engineering”, it addresses at it’s core the essence of what terrific food is all about, the experience. The taste, the sights, the smells. Most Europeans snicker at us, even when I was at Lenotre, twenty years ago; one of my professors, this Little hyper spaz Staney was commenting about “look, what is this American doing here, they don’t know anything about food”, I knew a lot more French than what I led on to believe, and didn’t say a thing, even though I was contributing to this bastards ability to make his monthly piece of crap Peugeot payment. If he could only see us now, that nasty piss, he is the same clown that thought it was funny to flick a dab of butter cream, that flung out of the mixer, landed on his clog, and toss it back into the rotating mixer, nice really nice, jerk off, twenty years later, I don’t think it was funny, not for a professional institution, and most people I tell that sorry ass story to, ask “and this happened at Lenotre?”, Ok…

Michael

[tan319]

someone asked me the other day why i tried to make new stuff

and i asked him why it was more interesting to make old stuff

i dont understand the controversy

←

I'm right there with you.

Why IS it more interesting to those people to not just do the same things but to put down the newer stuff too.

[cbarre02]

i love that a topic that chef stupek wanted made, is still with out his input.

[xdrixn]

I'm sure he's busy, keep your pants on.

[alex stupak]

at one point in history a lot of flavor combinations that are commonplace in both sweet and savory disciplines were unusual and intentional juxtapositions i feel....although chocolate and raspberry is so pedestrian its silly i still cant wrap my brain around it.....i would never pair those two flavors together......i mean i never would've thought of it....whoever came up with it was a very creative person...i mean i particularly dont like the combo but obviously its withstood and seems to make sense....

so what flavors make sense to you? pretend youve never lived on this planet before and are unaware of whats happened in cuisine at this point....your a blank slate with no preconceptions....what would you pair with chocolate then....what tastes best with it to you.....maybe it would be raspberry.....but that still counts as creative.....because your looking at it with a fresh clean perspective.....i personally would eat chocolate with avacado over raspberry anyday....

i fear im rambling and might not be making much sense...so forgive me.....ive had a rough day...

im trying to say that one way or another were all going to have to combine flavors......rarely is that the most exciting part for me.....for me its the technique....pastry and all cooking for that matter is manipulation.....the second a piece of fruit is taken from a tree its been altered or fussed with....now that weve already denatured it by taking it into our kitchen what will you do with it to make it unique and hopefully better than it was when you found it?....we can all get the same ingredients more or less so for me its technique and method that really decipher creativity. maybe if you work really hard you develop a new way of doing things....if you that just once in your career.....its incredible....if you can teach it to others.....even more important.....as a pastry chef you have an arsenal of techniques you can apply to your products if you can widen the arsenal it gets even more exciting...

these are random things i think about in regards to creativity and what it actually is.....at the end of the day the goal of any dessert is to be perfectly delicious and beautiful in every way....if i can deliver that consistently and make a few people ask me "how did you do that" i could ask for nothing more....thanks for starting this thread its really enjoyable for me to read all this great stuff....i cant wait to be in new york

[tan319]

Hey alex, thanks for checking in and participating and, please, add to this thread anytime you want.

I would be thrilled as I'm sure many others would be to hear about anything that's blown you away anytime.

As a former New Yorker (8 & 1/2 years or so, of course ending in 2k before all of YOU guys started kicking it up! ) I'd like to welcome you to NYC and hope it will be as much of a turn on for you as it was for me.

RE: technique, flavor, etc: What always gets me, never fails, is when I get something going for me that is new and hopefully better.

Teaching that to someone, especially someone who has got the blinders on, is even better.

And as akwa said upthread, caring, nothing is more important then caring about what you're making and putting up for people to enjoy.

This one place I recently used to be at, I used to crack up all of the prep people because I would never fail to exclaim how breath taking the shimmer off of the creme brulee was for me, or come running out to give someone a taste of some new flavor ice cream or sorbet I had come up with, to taste the diff a freshly churned one was.

I still do all of the time.

[Wendy DeBord]

if you prefer to seek out new ideas technologies products and inspirations you have the potential to add to the body of work, and this is perfectly acceptable way to contribute to the community

if you prefer to revisit traditional ideas etc, you will probably make more people happy and be able to make more money

i dont see why there is any inherent conflict, caring is what is important

if you are caring about your preparation then it will be a sincere reflection of yourself, and then it is a  success

←

I'm not following the point of this thread. What's new? What's being said or done that's really different then what we've been doing for years?

We've always had people that are explorers. We've always had people that push known envelops. We've always had people rooted in history. We've always had people that cared about what they were creating. We've always had people who want to make the same thing over and over. We've always had advances as science has progressed.

Is there a small seed of doubt in your minds that your work isn't valid because it's the current hot topic of the day?

I'm sorry..........someone spark a fire with-in me.......enlighten me........

[tan319]

Trying to hit a couple of points here....

Wendy, the point was raised on that other thread, by me, about how with all of this new technology and approaches, perhaps we're still drawn in by familiarity, or "iconic" structures or taste combos, as xdrixn threw in.

Specifically, the chocolate dessert by Stupak, profiled in PA&D 's signature desserts section was pointed out by me to be a bit jarring ( It's rumoured or is fact now that Alex Stupak will be stepping into the pastry chef position at wd50 in NYC when Sam Mason leaves to start his dessert-centric restaurant in SOHO) when compared to Sams sort of dessert musings.

It wasn't to start a pissing match of any kind, more to reflect on how surroundings (restaurant you work in), influences ( everybody is probably influenced by French pastry in the beginning but the Spanish thing and now "New American" thing creeps in eventually for many of us restless or seeker types) affect us almost unconciously in our creations after awhile.

A hard subject to tackle, as I was basically insinuating, in a way, that I don't envy Alexs position as the "new guy" at a restaurant that's been identified with it's pastry chef as much as say (don't kill me please, Wylie or Sam, or for that matter, any of you) Le Cirque was with Torres !!!

Or Albert Adria is with El Bulli.

There, I've not only said it but it crystallized for me!

[Wendy DeBord]

so what flavors make sense to you? pretend youve never lived on this planet before and are unaware of whats happened in cuisine at this point....your a blank slate with no preconceptions....what would you pair with chocolate then....what tastes best with it to you.....maybe it would be raspberry.....but that still counts as creative.....because your looking at it with a fresh clean perspective.....i personally would eat chocolate with avacado over raspberry anyday....

i fear im rambling and might not be making much sense...so forgive me.....ive had a rough day...

im trying to say that one way or another were all going to have to combine flavors......rarely is that the most exciting part for me.....for me its the technique....pastry and all cooking for that matter is manipulation.....the second a piece of fruit is taken from a tree its been altered or fussed with....now that weve already denatured it by taking it into our kitchen what will you do with it to make it unique and hopefully better than it was when you found it?....we can all get the same ingredients more or less so for me its technique and method that really decipher creativity. maybe if you work really hard you develop a new way of doing things....if you that just once in your career.....its incredible....if you can teach it to others.....even more important.....as a pastry chef you have an arsenal of techniques you can apply to your products if you can widen the arsenal it gets even more exciting...

←

Isn't this the same line of thought Torres had when he shaped cake into a stove or when Love served his chouboust in a pastilage piece of scuplture or when Wressell defied gravity and put his dessert in a cone balancing on his plate?

WHAT REALLY IS NEW?

The perfect quenelle has replaced the perfect scoop. The perfect dollop of sauce has been replaced with the perfect smear.

The round plate has been replaced with the square or rectangle.

A huge plate with a small item mats the food art just as artist have done for years when framing their art with huge mats of white. What's new?

The cone has been replaced with the cylinder.

We're still eating on plates with civilized preconcieved utensils the same "enhanced" perfect apple. Now I can bend an apple into a orange, I can make an apple taste like a peice of pie, I can make an apple taste like grapefruit.......

Why does one pastry chefs work look like the next if we are all bending the limits?

Who's serving a dessert thrown onto it's canvas, of a piece of linoluem? Who's not using a plate as a graphic arrangement? Who's not treating their creation like a beautiful little piece of precious art?

edited to add: sorry Ted, we seemed to be posting at the same time. So please allow me to respond to your current post..........

God I don't think any seasoned chef could envy Alex's position. It's horrible/scarie/great/incredible to follow big statement like Mason.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Wendy DeBord (log)

[Sethro]

I read something that really struck me on Eater the other day. The cuisine at Jack Lambs new place was described as "A.W. (After Wylie)". To me that is a really crappy spin to put on the movement towards molecular gastronomy blossoming in NY. Nobody is going to open a restaurant tommorow that single-handedly changes the way we eat food. It doesn't happen that way; we build upon those who preceded us and grow with our peers. There is absolutely no shame in using someone else's ideas as a starting point. Furthermore, molecular gastronomy is not a cheap trick or fad, its part of the lexicon, now and forever. To intentionaly avoid using any techniques that became popularized post El Bulli would be plain stubborn. That doesn't mean that every one of your dishes has to contain a foam and a caviar, but if it could benefit from the use of a modern technique then there's a place for it. If you've ever stabilized a whip cream or used atomized glucose in a sorbet, you've already waded deep enough into the molecular pool to get your shorts wet, and if you're determined to stop there it's a decision to handicap yourself.

I guess my point is that there are techniques available now that are extremely useful, and by employing them you don't put yourself in a box labled "El Bulli rip" or "A.W.", its all just cooking.

As far as creating a personal style, I think to a great deal it depends on an individual's point of reference. Most chefs or artists of any kind value the ability to bring something close to them into the hearts and minds of others. Often th best way to do that is by putting a new face on it, and a good example of that is Wylie's tongue sandwich. Its a dish that's been given new legs, but its heart is in the same place. That's a very cut and dry example, but I think if you look closely its a notion that holds true universely, at one level or another. The first impression of Alex Stupak's work might be that its avante garde to the point of being alien, but to him and those who know him its probably a warm reflection of his person. Furthermore, most of us (in NY) have only looked at Aliena's food and not tasted, so we can't begin to inteligently describe the style. Its the flavors that define your style first, the vison second, and the way you bring it together third. The ingredients and techniques you use, new or old, isn't a reflection on style at all (to me)...maybe a relfection of your budget if anything (heh). When immersion circulators become as common place as whisks, we'll have to find a new way to slap labels onto young chefs.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Sethro (log)

[alex stupak]

im really not nervous or worried in the slightest about moving.....im not arrogant but i am very, very, very, confident in my work....as far as my pliable chocolate ganache technique.....im proud to say ive served it to some people i really respect in the buisness including both ferran and albert adria....the texture is insane and it triumphs over all the silly little demispheres and ring molds we are all generally slaves too.....the new way im manipulating it i can actually get it to form an arc off of the plate....personally i dont like reference points in desserts.....peanut butter and jelly.....a play on a black forest cake....i get it....the only time those approaches were fresh and new to me was when los postres de el bulli and the french laundry cookbooks came out.....dont get me wrong im not against it....im not against anything if it tastes good......i just really try to avoid the "cake and ice cream" syndrome myself......okay so i ahve a main component....some ice cream or sorbet, a sauce.....there is a reason everything in pastry arts looks the same.....it takes a lot of frustration and energy to actually create.....if we cant get the mold from jb prince we cant make it......

[akwa]

im not sure i follow exactly what alex is saying

probably because im internally rambling

i like internal reference points

with regards to the nothing is ever really new or different argument, i just don't think that holds water under serious scrutiny

both albert adria and pierre herme are among the best pastry chefs working (probably for the last 100 years)

they are both innovative and passionate and personal.

no one in their right mind would say that they reflect the same era of pastry.

people can have a preference for one or the other:

one is more traditional and one is more "modern"

the fact that technological advances mean that the field is always progressing does not mean that certain individuals dont have a disproportionate impact; furthermore, a systematic change in the conception of desserts is likely to have longer reaching effects than a novel technique.

with regards to pliable ganache:

how cool is that!

it is an application with infinite possibilities, looks beautiful, and if i can base my impression from my experience eating alex's desserts at clio, it probably tastes great.

[ChefJB]

I read this thread with great interest as I see these same questions everyday on the faces of the students I interact with. I am an instructor at a culinary school in the northeast, and it never ceases to amaze me what the students try to do. I know that the things we are doing are far from cutting edge, but it is truley amazing to watch from a bystanders perspective the wonderful thing that is inspiration and creativity. I take my hat off to all of you who are pushing the envelope, and have to thank you in advance for what you will do for cuisine if you keep it up.

[tan319]

I keep on meaning to mess around with Alex' ganache recipe.

The Sorbitol kind of threw me off in the beginning ( it's a personal thing) but I loved it when I saw it on the Today show.

AW is kind of silly.

RE: Not utilizing a technique because it's been done. ala 'Bulli, etc., I got into a bit of a weird one over that kind of stuff a year or so ago in the Chicago forum with GE Bowles re: a Chicago magazine article that profiled him and Achatz and Moto and Bowles said he had never looked at the cdROM from '98/01 and I thought that was a bit hard to swallow as I had seen powdered foie gras on his menu ala the Pacojet.

Guess I respectfully doubted it online.

RE: Molds, etc.: Alex, did you squeeze out that ganache from a cookie thing a ma bob???

Man, we all like cake & ice cream, sorbets.

Re: akwa: What he said, yeah!!!

Herme' turns me on more & more all of the time and Adria needs to, well I guess he already HAS put out a new book ( or three, with his broher).

How about we petition to get 'Los Postres...' published into English???

[chiantiglace]

I feel like a jackass caught in the middle. I am surounded by so much irony its killing me.

Previously I had planned Sam Mason to do a demonstration here at CIA as well as Alex Stupak right after him. During this time of organizing we have been struggling with planning because they are both going off in new directions and I have been trying to keep up with them.

I am very very confused. This world is smaller than I thought it was.

Sam, Alex, its been fun for me, I hope we can get our shows on the road soon.

~Anthony.

[alex stupak]

the ganache is poured onto a plain old half sheet tray line with acetate.....then its sliced with a straight razor......there was a major mistake in the recipe in pastry arts....it was missing the cream completely....

thanks for the words will....ill be by as soon as i get a chance.....

[tan319]

the ganache is poured onto a plain old half sheet tray line with acetate.....then its sliced with a straight razor......there was a major mistake in the recipe in pastry arts....it was missing the cream completely....

thanks for the words will....ill be by as soon as i get a chance.....

←

I was looking at that PA&D yesterday & realized that you twist the ganache by hand

Also, a member (that you probably know) gave the cream measurement here, can get to it with a search.