Russian Tea Room to close

[marcus]

I remeber the Red Tulip. Best of a middling lot of traditional Hungarian restaurants on the edge of Yorkville. I don't think that any of them exist any longer, must be at least 15 years.

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki: If Petrossian is a French restaurant, why did every single one of Conticini's entrees (really) have blini somehow incorporated into it? The Petrossian brothers, BTW, were Armenian, and they introduced Paris to the Russian traditions of caviar and smoked salmon. That these have been adopted by the French and others doesn't make them any less Russian. So yes, if forced to assign an ethnicity to Caviarteria, I'd say Russian before I'd say anything else.

[Jason Perlow]

Plotnicki, you ignorant slut.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think that you can't compare neighborhood ethnic restaurants like the Red Tulip with places like the Russian Tea Room and Luchow's. The difference being an international customer base versus local. If the RTR was a place the size of Russian Samover they might very well not be closing. But given the slot they used to fill in New York social life, which went well beyond the cuisine, although the style of celebratory food they served enhanced whatever special occassion one might be celebrating and "haute" Russian was as haughty as any other, it really isn't surprising they are closing. Most of those types of places closed or have lost their glitz.

Doe anybody remember when The Palm Court at the Plaza Hotel was "the" place to have Sunday brunch? When I was around college age, that was a way to celebrate a birthday. But it lost it's luster when it became owned by one of the hotel chains, maybe it was Westin or maybe the gild fell off the leaf when Trump owned it and he went into financial difficulty. But it went from a place that people went to for a celebration to a place they didn't go at all. The goodwill it built up for the prior 75 years or so went into the crapper in something like 2 years.

Fat Guy - Well I remember the day Petrossian opened because I went to have lunch there. Aside from the caviar, we ate foie gras and truffle soup. The menu looked pretty French to me. Did Contincini serve blini with the foie gras too?

Jason - Thanks, I needed that today. Especially the slut part. . But if you want to eat something good, go to Petrossian and buy the "Tsar's Cut" loin of smoked salmon. It is the bomb! The loin cut at Caviarteria is good, but not as good as the Petrossian one which is ethereal. And at Caviar House in London (on St. James as well as at Heathrow,) the "Balick cut" (in honor of our own Adam Balic) is also up there in the category of ethereal smoked salmons.

[Wilfrid]

Gee if Steve has his way, the only restaurants which will need to exist will be pseudo-French restaurants where every dish is so refined you can suck it through a straw.

[Fat Guy]

Fat Guy - Well I remember the day Petrossian opened because I went to have lunch there. Aside from the caviar, we ate foie gras and truffle soup. The menu looked pretty French to me. Did Contincini serve blini with the foie gras too?

No. Only the main courses -- all of them. Not necessarily "with," either. The blini -- referred to as Blin™ on the printed menu -- were incorporated somehow into every dish. The menu under the Conticini regime was divided into Petrossian Traditions (the basic salmon and foie gras stuff), Appetizers, Main Courses, and a caviar menu. Also desserts, of course. Obviously the menu is French-influenced, as Russian cuisine has been for more than a century. Conticini would wince when journalists would call Petrossian a Russian restaurant, but he never had a good answer for the Blin™ and all those signature Russian items. I think the best descriptions would be Modern-French-influenced Russian, or Classic-Russian-influenced French. Take your pick.

Is a pizzeria Italian?

[Wilfrid]

Well, it describes itself as French-influenced contemporary. And here's the dinner menu.

If you ask me, it's just an American menu, with caviar and blinis. The lunch menu, even more so.

[Fat Guy]

And if you take the grand total of all the people every month who order any of those items, it's roughly equal to the number of caviar and smoked fish orders placed in an afternoon. Things have changed since Conticini left, and the whole silly Blin concept was thankfully disbanded. I don't know what's going on in Paris -- I hear everything is being served in shot glasses these days. Whatever. The point is that Petrossian is identified in the public consciousness of New York as a Russian restaurant, and people go there primarily to eat traditional Russian-style foods. It's also a nice place for Sunday brunch.

[rozrapp]

Steve Plotnicki posted on Jul 29 2002, 01:23 PM

Outdated cuisine is outdated cuisine and it is subject to the vagueries of the market regardless of country of origination. Things like Duck l'Orange and Gigot en Croute aren't really served anymore....

I don't know about Gigot en Croute still being served, but Duck a l'Orange is alive and well on at least one French bistro's menu in NYC -- La Petite Auberge. It's a very nicely-prepared version of this "outdated" dish. And I find it an occasional pleasant change of pace from the various preparations of magret -- and magret is one of my favorites -- that now prevail on most French restaurant menus.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Rozrapp - Do you think "aren't really" equals never? And I'm sure someone serves Gigot en Croute as well. But once upon a time *every* French restaurant in this town served those types of things.

Fat Guy - I never thought of Petrossian as being Russian for a minute. I always thought of it as French. If you want to go to a Russian caviar bar, go to Le Daru which is down the block from the Eglise Russe on rue Daru in Paris. But Petrossian? It's no more Russian than the Maison du Caviar on the Madelaine is.

[Wilfrid]

Are you just relying on the restaurant's history, or does Petrossian's menu strike you as French? Whole Maine lobster? "Our" smoked river trout? Roast Long Island duckling? Roasted breast of chicken? Maine codfish? Fingerling potato fritter? Larry Forgione might have served this menu at An American Place.

(Fun to disagree with two Steve's at once )

[Fat Guy]

Wilfrid, I'm relying on what the restaurant is known for and on what it actually serves to its core clientele. Have you dined there?

Plotnicki, the French can't claim caviar unless they do something to improve it. They haven't. Any establishment serving caviar and blini is as Russian as a pizzeria is Italian.

[Wilfrid]

I've lunched there, and I know the former maitre d', Rudy. For some reason, although I have discussed many restaurant-related topics with Rudy, I never thought to ask him - "So, Petrossian - is it French or Russian in your opinion?" I assume what they serve to their core clientele is what's on the menu, and it don't look all that Russian or French to me.

I am disturbed to learnt that the French failed to evolve and refine caviar, but I should have thought caviar and blinis are available at any number of upscale restaurants, without those restaurants being Russian. Take Alain Ducasse for example. I sometimes think we spend a lot of time on eGullet trying to apply neat labels and distinctions, when the world out there is a lot more fuzzy, wilful, and complicated.

Can I get a big RAZ here?

[Orik]

Any establishment serving caviar and blini is as Russian as a pizzeria is Italian.

Indeed.

Some hard core Russian feasts I've been to featured a bottle of vodka per diner, quantities of caviar that would probably cost well over $10000 here and buttered white bread. Smoked salmon, blini, sour cream, etc. were also available, but treated as fillers in case you're still conscious after the requisite drinking (at least a third of the bottle, preferably half).

[Fat Guy]

I should have thought caviar and blinis are available at any number of upscale restaurants, without those restaurants being Russian.  Take Alain Ducasse for example.

Okay, you got me.

How about, if a restaurant's focus is caviar served in the traditional Russian-Imperial manner . . .

[Wilfrid]

Okie dokie.

Edit to be more expansive: I never worried about what ethnicity Petrossian was before, but I'd say it was a restaurant specializing in caviar and smoked salmon service in a style derived from Russia, backed up with a menu of fairly typical mainstream American restaurant dishes, with a wrapping of fancy Parisian restaurant history. Not neat, but - I contend - reasonably accurate.

[marcus]

Fat Guy, I'm missing your point on Pizzeria and Italian. I just came back from Naples where almost every restaurant, including many upscale ones, has the word Pizzeria if not always in the name of the restaurant, on the facade. And they all serve Pizza. I remeber a Sunday dinner at a moderately upscale fish restaurant, Don Stefano, where at least a third of the diners ordered Pizza as their main dish.

[Fat Guy]

Right, I'm saying a pizzeria is Italian whether it's in Paris or New York and whether it's owned by Greeks, Armenians, or Plotnicki. It only stops being Italian when the core product -- pizza -- is so altered from the Italian original as to be a different product. So when you get into those pizzas-on-pita (Pitzas) they serve at Moustache, well, I guess at that point it's not Italian. Domino's probably isn't Italian either, come to think of it.

[Fat Guy]

a restaurant specializing in caviar and smoked salmon service in a style derived from Russia, backed up with a menu of fairly typical mainstream American restaurant dishes, with a wrapping of fancy Parisian restaurant history.

Okay, except just to clarify the history as I understand it: Petrossian opened in Paris in the early part of the 20th Century as a Russian boutique selling caviar, smoked fish, and such. The Paris restaurant as far as I know didn't open until 2000 or so. It rapidly got a Michelin star and I don't know much about what's on the menu -- it's not part of the discussion as far as I know, though we could talk about it. The New York restaurant is much older than the Paris one -- it dates to the 1980s. When it opened I don't think you'd have gotten much debate about what it was: A restaurant focused on serving Petrossian's signature products. Now they've tried to gussy it up, most recently with a stint by Conticini, who did the whole Blin thing. I think if you look at the reasoning behind the artificial working-in of Blin into every main course it becomes pretty obvious that there's a Russian thing going on here. The restaurant is currently in sort of an interim period -- I'm not sure what's going on now that both Conticini and Broberg (the New York pastry chef and the guy responsible for the Cafe menu) have jumped ship.

[Jason Perlow]

And irregardless of what ethnicity Petrossian is or isn't, Firebird is most definitely Russian.

[Beachfan]

"There is no need for a Russian restaurant to exist ANYMORE because after all, what is interesting about classical Russian food?"

Borscht is a reason unto itself.

[Beachfan]

But if you want to eat something good, go to Petrossian and buy the "Tsar's Cut" loin of smoked salmon. It is the bomb!

It most definitely is! The first time my brother had it (we were together) he was standing up. Two seconds into the first bite, his knees buckled from the pleasure intensity. I thought he was gonna take a header right there.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Certain things have transcended their point of origin. Like sauteed foie gras. Once upon a time you could only get it at French restaurants. Today there are 100 restaurants in Manhattan that serve it that have nothing to do with French food. But it does have to do with American cooking techniques that were influenced by the French. And places like Spago serve pizza but it isn't an Italian restaurant. I think caviar is sort of like that. It might have been Russian or Iranian but many of the restaurants that now serve caviar have transcended their point of origin. Many of them like Maison du Caviar or Caviateria really have little or nothing to do with being Russian. They serve caviar as a luxury item. Not as a Russian item.

As for Petrossian, I haven't been to the restaurant in years so I can't comment on the current menu. But when it fisrt opened aside from the caviar they seemed to only be serving French food. They didn't have things like chicken kiev etc. on the menu.

[Suzanne F]

Well, Firebird is Russian as interpreted by a CIA-trained Finnish-born-and-raised chef, with a frat-boy sous-chef, and cooked by a United-Nations of staff (except for the pastry department, which is All-American-Miss). I worked there earlier this year. Their "Chicken Tabak" is NOT the classic, for sure. My lips are sealed on the inauthenticity of any other dishes. But the caviar is real.

[Sandra Levine]

It's pretty though.