Dirty Ethnic Markets

[azlee]

Okay, to reiterate, I'm not talking about produce here, where "dirt" -- otherwise known as "earth" -- is to be expected. The produce in the Chinatown markets is fresher and cheaper than what's in conventional markets, and I have no qualms about buying it.

What I'm referring to is dented and rusty cans, bottles and jars that are weeping their contents, and other signs that the integrity of previously manufactured products has been breached.

Some interesting points have been brought out in this discussion about imported products not always faring well in transit, and larger markets being able to afford more staff to dust and arrange the merchandise.

But I still get the impression that general grunginess of shelf-stable areas of the store is more acceptable in ethnic markets, and I'm still curious as to why.

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many times the merchant has to weigh the cost of importing such items against the cost of discarding or 'marking down' containers damaged in transit. the goods are often harder to obtain, so less likely to be discarded simply because the containers are not cosmetically pleasing. the typical customer of these markets accepts this because they want the items without the markup for aestethics that would result from dented or sullied cans being discarded, believing that it's better to rinse off the can or jar at home than to pay more for it...

[SuzySushi]

Let me just inject here, I'm pleased by the enlightening responses in this thread, and a little surprised by the number of views it has received in just a few days. Thanks, everyone, for participating!

Thinking further on points several people have brought up, is the cleanliness factor largely the difference between a small "mom & pop" store and a supermarket that has greater financial resources, more employees, and presumably codified cleanliness standards?

Then again, if I set foot in a supermarket that's dirty, I'm unlikely to buy anything there or ever go back, whereas I guess my expectations are different with an "ethnic" grocery store because I don't have as many alternatives from which to buy the same products.

And yes, Sanrensho, I agree that Daiei, the large Japanese supermarket chain in Hawaii, is generally spotless (although one of their older stores, in Pearl City, is a bit run down compared to their recently remodeled flagship), as is the local branch of 99 Ranch Market, a huge Taiwanese-owned supermarket chain. But again, is this due to inherent differences between "supermarkets" and "mom & pop" operations?

[Pan]

Suzy, I keep thinking about the Korean-owned fruit, vegetable, and sundries stores here in Manhattan. Most of them probably wouldn't be called "ethnic" stores because they cater to a largely non-Korean (usually Anglo) clientele, but the ownership and often all or most of the employees are Koreans. Those started out as family-owned and -run and I think many of them still are. It's common for them to sell the same spotless-looking, shiny, water-sprayed produce that's sold at well-kept chain supermarkets, and they do make efforts to keep their aisles and shelves clean. So I'm not sure the question of whether it's a family or a corporation that owns the market is really what determines the condition of the stock and upkeep of the store.

[Patrick S]

The conventional Western terms "ethnic" and "generic" are culturally biased, because they are meant to distinguish between things that are "not white" and things that are "white."

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I disagee. At least, that's not how I would interpret the terms. To me, the term "ethnic market" has always meant, very simply and just as the dictionary would seem to imply, a market that specifically caters to a particular group of people associated with a particular geographic derivation or ancestry. That would include, for example, the local Italian or Armenian or German or Polish or French (or whatever) markets that are largely run by, and cater to, caucasian persons. I've never understood "ethnic market" to mean "market catering to nonwhites," and I don't think that most other people do either.

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Well, I was all set to totally agree with PatrickS that "ethnic" simply means of or pertaining to a particular group, and that the word is commonly used when referring to any group other than your own (like me being Hungarian/British Canadian would make me ethnic anywhere outside of Hungary, Britain or Canada, yes?). So off I went to dictionary.com to double-check the meaing of ethnic and boy did I get a rude awakening:

eth-nic (adj)

  1.    1. Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

        2. Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.

        3. Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group: ethnic restaurants; ethnic art.

  2. Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen.

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Yes, the first and third definitions are pretty much exactly what I had in mind. As I would have expected, not a single definition defines "ethnic" exclusively in terms of skin color, though race can be one type of ethnic association (among many). I can only speak for myself, of course, but never in my life (literally) have I heard anyone use the word "ethnic" in a manner consistent with the last definition, as a synonym for "non-judeo-christian."

ETA: I checked the etymology of the word "ethnic" on dictionary.com, it is almost exactly how I understood the term in the context of "ethnic market," in terms of geography. Dictionary.com says that:

The adjective is derived from the noun ethnos, “people, nation, foreign people,” that in the plural phrase ta ethne meant “foreign nations.”

Edited May 18, 2006 by Patrick S (log)

[Khadija]

I don't really want to drag this out too much further, but... By "white" I don't mean "caucasian". I mean a host of things associated with the idea of neutrality and generic-ness. Whiteness means Anglo or Anglo-European, but it is defined only very loosely by geography and skin tone. Just which people count as white is a question that requires more sophisticated empirical investigation than I can provide. In general, I think that "whiteness" is a certain type of culturally dominant position and it comes in degrees.

I am from Toronto. My mother is Chinese and my father is Canadian-born with English and Scottish parents. My Chinese relatives don't consider me to be Chinese, they consider me to be "white." As I mentioned upthread, I have met other Chinese people who also consider me to be "white." I know Black people who consider me to be white. Is this because I have exceptionally white skin? I don't think so. On the other hand, all my life, people who are whiter than me have asked me "where are you from?" When I tell them that I'm from Toronto, they are never satisfied. They always say, "No, what's your ethnicity?" When I tell them about my parents, I am often told that my background is "exotic." People also tend to ask my mother where she's from or what her ethnicity is. Nobody ever asks my father where he is from or what his ethnicity is. My partner is from Toronto. His parents are English and Dutch. Nobody ever asks him about his ethnicity. Why are people interested in my ethnicity and my mother's ethnicity and not my father's or my partner's? I, in particular, do not have very many interesting stories to tell. I'm from a WASP neighbourhood in Toronto. Even when people know this, some of them continue to believe that I'm exotic. Why do I seem so exotic when my professed ethnic heritage includes just as many different geographical locations as would my partner's professed ethnic heritage (if anybody ever asked him)?

I know people who have gone through life thinking that they're white, only to find out that, in certain circumstances, they're not. For example, a second-generation Greek friend, who I consider to be white, certainly whiter than me, was asked by a British professor about his experiences of discrimination. He replied that, as a white male, he didn't think he experienced a lot of discrimination. She looked at him very strangely and said, "but you're not white."

I don't think that most people think "non-Judeo-Christian" or "not white" when they use the term "ethnic." But people, including myself, do not tend to use categories self-consciously. How people think they use categories, and how dictionaries define the words that refer to categories, is not always particularly revealing of how the categories actually operate. My worries about "ethnic" are not about what people's self-conscious intentions are when they use the term. I am more interested in typically unnoticed problems with the social arrangements that govern ordinary use of the term.

I have no doubt that many well-intentioned people simply mean to say something like "from a foreign geographical location" when they use the term "ethnic." The problem with this, especially in North American contexts, is that whether a person or thing is considered "ethnic" does not always depend on their coming from a foreign geographical location. If that were true, either I would be considered a generic Canadian (not "ethnic" and "exotic") or my partner would be considered "ethnic" and "exotic" (not a generic Canadian). Also, Native Americans and Native Canadians would be considered the least ethnic people around.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Khadija (log)

[chefzadi]

Going back to some made earlier (I think sanresho and nakji).

Large Korean and Japanese supermarkets comparable in size to safeway actually in my assessment (I have photos but I don't have the time to post) in Los Angeles have much better displays, vegetable, meat and seafood selections than typical national American chains do. Very clean and tidy. There are very nice Korean and Japanese markets attached to nice/more upscale malls.

I lived in Korea too. Many supermarkets there are very clean, the merchandising is upscale and very tidy. The fruits and vegetables are displayed like gifts, etc...

In my circle in Los Angeles personally and professionally (at my daughter's private school and at my culinary school) Koreans and Japanese are thought of as more upscale, well educated, stylish, (drive expensive cars, drive up property values, etc...) Call it another stereitype if you will.

[MomOfLittleFoodies]

I am from Toronto.  My mother is Chinese and my father is Canadian-born with English and Scottish parents.  My Chinese relatives don't consider me to be Chinese, they consider me to be "white."  As I mentioned upthread, I have met other Chinese people who also consider me to be "white."  I know Black people who consider me to be white.  Is this because I have exceptionally white skin?  I don't think so.  On the other hand, all my life, people who are whiter than me have asked me "where are you from?"  When I tell them that I'm from Toronto, they are never satisfied.  They always say, "No, what's your ethnicity?"  When I tell them about my parents, I am often told that my background is "exotic."  People also tend to ask my mother where she's from or what her ethnicity is.  Nobody ever asks my father where he is from or what his ethnicity is.  My partner is from Toronto.  His parents are English and Dutch.  Nobody ever asks him about his ethnicity.  Why are people interested in my ethnicity and my mother's ethnicity and not my father's or my partner's?  I, in particular, do not have very many interesting stories to tell.  I'm from a WASP neighbourhood in Toronto.  Even when people know this, some of them continue to believe that I'm exotic.  Why do I seem so exotic when my professed ethnic heritage includes just as many different geographical locations as would my partner's professed ethnic heritage (if anybody ever asked him)?

I'm in a similar situation. My mother's family is of Japanese ancestry (Her father is a second generation American, and her mother emigrated from Japan in the early 50s), my father's family is Caucasian and has been in the US (and Canada) since the late 1600s. I don't look particularly Asian, but living in California I'm often pegged as a very pale Hispanic. My husband's family is of Japanese ancestry (he's 4th generation) so my not particularly Asian looking kids are 3/4ths Japanese.

I get a lot of the same questions. Really, my geneaologicial history on my dad's side of the family is a much more interesting story.

[JohnL]

This topic is more complex than it first appears.

I would say that "ethnicity" has nothing to do with this.

there are too many (some offered by posters here) examples of "clean" markets run by people who are recent immigrants (and not so recent) of all ethnicities.

There are clean and modern small markets and large chains and there are dirty and dingy markets of all sizes.

I would say that the neighborhood and clientele of each establishment has a lot to do with the level of cleanliness. Poorer neighborhoods often have more "dingy" markets--large and small--compared to wealthy neighborhoods.

But even this is hard to apply across the board.

Competition is a factor--some neighborhoods where there is no competition often have businesses that tend to be lax when it comes to overhead--why bother?

There can be wealthy or poor.

I would offer some evidence by noting a situation in a very wealthy upscale neighborhood in Westchester. For years there was a small grocery--several miles from any competition. The place was fairly dingy (I often shied away from their prepared salads that sometimes looked like they were a bit "old" for example.

The place was quite successful.

It was eventually bought by some people I know who told me the back kitchen was absolutely filthy.

there is another market I am familiar with in Connecticut--very wealthy small town. Often cheeses were out of date as well as sausages, milk etc. Yet this was a successful operation. It was recently sold as well. Clearly though it appeared clean and modern --there were problems that went well beyond appearances. This is a caveat in this argument--often markets that appear dingy are really not and some that appear clean and modern are not.

The point being--I do not think this has much to do with ethnicity. I do not think it has to do with large or small.

I believe it has more to do with what people are willing to accept as consumers. The proximity of competition. The diligence and commitment of the ownership.

All these factors (and probably some others I missed) contribute to the overall operation of a market.

The ethnic market on the corner where I live is very clean and modern while a market run by people of the same ethnicity two blocks away is pretty dingy.

I just do not see this as being about ethnicity. Or even rich or poor. (though this can be a factor among many). There are too many conflicting examples.

[Chris Amirault]

Folks, this thread is teetering close to the edge of topicality. Please limit all posts to food-related matters. Thanks.

[MarketStEl]

I don't really want to drag this out too much further, but... By "white" I don't mean "caucasian".  I mean a host of things associated with the idea of neutrality and generic-ness.  Whiteness means Anglo or Anglo-European, but it is defined only very loosely by geography and skin tone.  Just which people count as white is a question that requires more sophisticated empirical investigation than I can provide.  In general, I think that "whiteness" is a certain type of culturally dominant position and it comes in degrees.

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You are familiar with the US term "Oreo," no? (That is, when not used to describe a chocolate cream sandwich cookie?)

--Sandy, who's been called that--sometimes affectionately--on numerous occasions

[tryska]

I'd like to re-iterate my point here, because I think it's getting lost in cultural relativism. I don't think that there is a pre-disposition in any culture to be more accepting of dirty/dusty/weeping/misordered cans or other food containers. Whenever I travel, I make it a point to search out food stores; I get a kick out of strolling through foreign supermarkets.

I've been in food stores or supermarkets all across Asia, and have shopped regularly in both Vietnam and Korea. The food stores here are full of clean, bright cans and bottles facing forward. Nothing is weeping anything. Nothing is dusty. People care a lot about the cleanliness and order of the products. They do not have lowered standards. They are not "used to" eating this way and are more accepting of it than us in their home countries.

But

When I visit special "western" ethnic markets; that is to say, small stores specializing in western food products that have been imported to Asia, such as cereal; bottled spaghetti sauce; Macaroni and Cheese; corn chips; various cheeses; lunch meats, etc.; these stores have been dusty, crowded, and jumbled full of cans and bottles in various states of disrepair. Are all the Vietnamese people who visit wondering, "Goodness, these foreigners who shop here must be used to such dirty stores! They must have special immunity for eating this stuff"?

So I think it's not where the shoppers are from that matters. It's the fact that

1) The products have come a long way and have suffered in transit and

2) shoppers in these stores have little choice when it comes to purchasing these products, so they must accept them in whatever form they find them in.

So to sum up: [Asian] people do not have lower standards for the condition of the products that they purchase BUT people who are buying products that remind them of home and can't find anywhere else do.

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I think you and I pretty much share the same perception.

i would like to add:

3) the products in these store probably don't have the same turnover as products at the "regular" stores.

[MarketStEl]

Let me just inject here, I'm pleased by the enlightening responses in this thread, and a little surprised by the number of views it has received in just a few days. Thanks, everyone, for participating!

Thinking further on points several people have brought up, is the cleanliness factor largely the difference between a small "mom & pop" store and a supermarket that has greater financial resources, more employees, and presumably codified cleanliness standards?

Then again, if I set foot in a supermarket that's dirty, I'm unlikely to buy anything there or ever go back, whereas I guess my expectations are different with an "ethnic" grocery store because I don't have as many alternatives from which to buy the same products.

And yes, Sanrensho, I agree that Daiei, the large Japanese supermarket chain in Hawaii, is generally spotless (although one of their older stores, in Pearl City, is a bit run down compared to their recently remodeled flagship), as is the local branch of 99 Ranch Market, a huge Taiwanese-owned supermarket chain. But again, is this due to inherent differences between "supermarkets" and "mom & pop" operations?

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Oops! Didn't get to the end of the discussion prior to my last post. Bringing things back to the original question by way of SuzySushi's refocusing of her original question:

I think the cleanliness question is also a function of product turnover, and maybe even of the owner's priorities.

Several posters have already noted that "Western" food markets in non-Western countries share many of the attributes that you find unpleasant at the "ethnic" markets you sometimes patronize in Hawai'i. They have suggested that in both cases, the dirtiness stems in part from the difficulty of getting the products from the places they were made to the store shelves.

I used to patronize a small corner convenience grocery store in Center City Philadelphia of the "American" variety--that is, one that stocked a small selection of packaged foods and (as is common for stores of this type in Philly) had a deli counter where one could buy lunch meats and hoagies. This store also had a license to sell take-out beer, which Pennsylvania law allows only taverns and stores that sell prepared foods to take out to do.

It was clear from walking into the store--which in its later years under its old owners did not open until noon--what the store's main product line was, for the boxes of Hamburger Helper and Jell-O and Jiffy corn muffin mix and cans of Green Giant veggies and... all had a fine coating of dust on them and the deli case's contents looked more like those of my refrigerator than those of a decent deli counter. I don't think I ever saw anyone walk out of there with a hoagie, and very few people walk out with food items other than chips or salty snacks, but there were certainly lots of people walking out with six-packs or forties.

I think L&I (the Philadelphia Department of Licenses and Inspections, which regulates food vendors, among other things) must have sat on them for something, because just before the store was sold to a Korean owner, the dusty boxes disappeared from the shelves and the grungy frozen-food case was replaced by a seating area with beer taps.

The store's new Korean owners have replaced all the fixtures, spruced up the seating area, and put in a real deli counter. And they keep more traditional convenience-store hours. And there's no dust on the packages.

I guess I went into all of this by way of saying that I agree that product turnover has something to do with it. I'll wager that if a typical supermarket sold as few food products as this store did, you'd find more dusty merchandise there as well.

Dusty cans don't faze me, really, because I realize the dust can't get inside the can. What I do find somewhat unsettling are the more pronounced aromas of live animals I've sometimes encountered in the local Asian supermarkets, in particular the smells of fish that pervade their fish counters.

I posted about the H-Mart chain of Asian supermarkets before, including on my foodblog. It struck me that besides their mix of Asian and Western products, another distinguishing feature of this chain is that its stores are maintained to American supermarket standards of cleanliness and lack of odor. There's a decent amount of live and non-frozen seafood at their seafood counter (which in the Upper Darby store is right behind the produce section, a rather atypical arrangement by American standards), but you don't smell any of it.

Edited May 30, 2006 by MarketStEl (log)

[elfin]

I have travelled to over 100 countries and always hit the markets. I have seen the dirtiest of the dirty. I shop at ethnic markets in the Chicago area for value and unique foods. On Saturday morning, we walked into an "African and Caribbean" food market which I had often seen for over two years but never visited. As we walked into the store my 4 y.o. repeatedly shouts "It stinks in here!" There was a butcher cutting meat, a fish monger and plenty of dried fish cling wrapped. The place really did stink like something died. I checked the aisles and produce sections- as the fish looked past prime and the meat was mostly goat legs, hooves and other bony cuts. Frankly, I would be reluctant to buy meat there based on hygiene factors The floor was filthy and the cramped shelves had pretty raunchy looking canned and boxed goods. The produce prices were high compared to another market (Hispanic- with butcher and fish monger) located in the next block which was really clean. Two blocks away there is a Vietnamese grocery store with a butcher, fish monger, dried fish and produce. The place does not stink. The store is cramped and not the cleanest but the fish and produce I have purchased there were fine.