Care to help a lad?

[Austin]

I'm currently in the beginning stages of writing a cookbook of southern Thai food. The format for the recipes is already established by the series of books, but this is the first time they've done Thai cooking, and I want to be sure that my instructions are clear. Thus, if anybody is interested in making a Thai dish tonight, I encourage you to follow the one below for Panang Nuea, Panang Curry with Beef. Please let me know if it makes sense and if there's anything you feel I missed out on, wasn't clear about, or forgot!

If you decide to make it, please add your comments (and photos?) to this thread. If people like doing this, I can add a couple more recipes in the future (not sure if the publishing company would like it if they found their entire book online!). (Oh, and keep in mind that the recipe is meant for four people--I only made half of it myself, and it turned out quite well.)

Thanks!

Panang Curry with Beef Phanaeng Nuea

(Serves 4 as part of a southern Thai meal)

Ingredients

Curry Paste

Large dried chilies 20, softened in warm water

Shallots 5, peeled and chopped

Garlic 10 large cloves, peeled and chopped

Chopped galingale 1 tsp

Chopped lemongrass 1 tsp

Chopped coriander roots 1/2 Tbsp

Chopped kaffir lime peel 1 tsp

Peppercorns 5

Salt 1/2 tsp

Shrimp paste 2 Tbsp

Lean beef 500 g, sliced into thumb-sized strips

Thick coconut milk* 250 ml

Thin coconut milk** 500 ml

Sugar 1 Tbsp

Large Thai chilies 4, thinly sliced lengthwise and kept in cool water

Kaffir lime leaves 3-4 leaves, finely sliced

*Thick coconut milk is the coconut milk that comes directly from the can.

**Thin coconut milk is canned coconut milk that has been diluted 50% with water.

Method

-Using a mortar and pestle or a food processor grind the curry paste ingredients together into a fine paste. Set aside.

-In a large saucepan over medium heat, bring the thick coconut milk to a light boil. Add the curry paste and blend well. Bring to a slight boil, reduce heat, and simmer, stirring constantly, until the much of the liquid has evaporated and a layer of oil has begun to form on top. This can take as long as 15 to 20 minutes. Add beef and stir until coated with the curry paste mixture. Bring to a boil, reduce heat slightly, and simmer beef, stirring constantly, until meat is tender and has absorbed much of the coconut milk and curry paste mixture, about 10 minutes. (If mixture becomes too dry, add thin coconut milk, 25 ml at a time.)

-Add the thin coconut milk and sugar. Simmer, blending constantly, until curry is somewhat thick, about five minutes. Season with additional sugar or fish sauce, if necessary. Remove from heat and garnish with chilies and kaffir lime leaves.

-Serve hot with rice as part of a southern Thai meal.

And here's what mine looked like:

[torakris]

Cool!

This a great idea and I hope many people can help. I may be able to make it next week as I am out of most of the ingredients...

A question on the dried chiles, just how large is large? When I think of large chiles I think of ancho...

[Austin]

torakris: I'm not too familiar with "Western" chilies, but if you'll go to this link to my blog Phrik 101 and scroll down to the 4th pic, you'll find an image of phrik chii faa, the chili in question. They tend to be the length of, say, a pen, and aren't too spicy.

Austin

[sanrensho]

Austin, I've got some constructive comments.

1. Have you actually tried making the curry paste in a typical American/European food processor? With the small amount that is involved, I wonder if this will actually process into a paste (as opposed to just chopping the ingredients)? Mind you, I haven't tried it myself, but I'm a bit skeptical.

2. The spelling I see most often is "galangal."

3. Kaffir lime peel might be a hard one to source. Can you suggest an alternative ingredient? Or should I leave it out?

Otherwise, the recipe looks fantastic. I'd love to try it out, but would have to resort to a commercial paste due to lack of a decent-sized mortar and pestle.

Edited April 12, 2006 by sanrensho (log)

[Austin]

sarensho: Excellent comments, thanks.

1. Yes, I have tried this, years ago, and frankly it was not very good at all. The texture was more similiar to something "minced" rather than "mashed", if that makes any sense. If you do have a mortar but are short on time or energy, I would recommend using a food processor first, then finishing it by a short grinding with a mortar and pestle to smooth it out. Nowadays I only use a mortar and pestle. It's time consuming, messy, boring, and noisy, but the results are the best.

2. Galangal, thanks.

3. Hmm... That's a tough one. I think I've seen regular lime peel used as a substitute (not in Thailand, however), but I imagine you would need much less, as the taste is not the same.

Please do try, even if you can't make the paste. I'd appreciate some imput re. the actual cooking process.

Ta,

Austin

[sanrensho]

sarensho: Excellent comments, thanks.

1. Yes, I have tried this, years ago, and frankly it was not very good at all. The texture was more similiar to something "minced" rather than "mashed", if that makes any sense. If you do have a mortar but are short on time or energy, I would recommend using a food processor first, then finishing it by a short grinding with a mortar and pestle to smooth it out. Nowadays I only use a mortar and pestle.  It's time consuming, messy, boring, and noisy, but the results are the best.

That's been my experience as well, "minced" or "chopped" but not a paste. I woud leave out the food processor references throughout your book to avoid reader disappointment.

However, you might want to make mention of specialized grinder/blender appliances like the Sumeet. (I haven't used one, but perhaps you can find and experiment with something similar in Thailand?)

Also, I wonder if you could come up with a better alternative method than a food processor. Something like bashing up the paste ingredients in a ziploc bag with a rolling pin. Then whirring with some coconut milk in a blender?

[NickLam]

Hi Austin, all the best for your cookbook.......and if you can.....please have a recipe for Kway Teow Nam Tok Luer (The boatman's noodles) in it. Ahahah especially for the one near the Victory Monument which adds a bit of weed in the soup! But maybe not...coz its more Northern than Southern.

If you are looking to do a review on Japanese style suki restaurants in Bangkok, please stop by Akiyoshi in Tai Sin Square on Sukhumvit....Soi what, I can't remember. Its my mate's place and its packed full every night and a good place to stuff yourself silly.

As for recipes, whilst I was in Australia, lots of my Thai mates would use ready made pastes bought from Chinatown to make their meals. Every other Thai cookbook has recipes to make the nam prik from scratch but lets face it.........the average home cook will probably not want to do that, even with a food processor as the pungent herbs will make the blender unuseable for other dishes.

Also, by blending, the flavour isn't as good as one that was ground and pounded in a pestle and mortar.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe, you could devise recipes that can be based around ready made pastes available in your target market countries. Using these ready made pastes as a base, your recipe can spike them up by adding this and that. My mate's maids do really amazing stuff with these pastes and their Gaeng Khiow wan, Nam Prik Ong and many other dishes are simply breathtaking.....in more ways than one

With the Thompson and Vatcharin books out on the market already, from my point of view.......I'd like to see something simpler, something more accessible. One thing's for sure, you'll sell a hell of a lot of cookbooks to Thai students studying overseas! My friends actually call their maids back home for recipes.....and when told to do the paste from scratch, they give up. Then they buy the pastes and muck around with them till it tastes ok to them.

In my experience......their ad-hoc versions lack ALOT, and if you can somehow work your magic and recreate the taste that they can get back home in a foreign land, it will be a great book for them.

[Pontormo]

Great idea for a thread! What a wonderful looking dish to use as a first test case

I second the comment about kaffir lime peel. Kaffir lime leaves are more readily available here in the States, and those are not always easy to find.

I'd like to know where your book will be sold since vocabulary may be a problem, too. It's easy to figure out that a capisum is a bell pepper when there's a photograph.

I also know that we use "cilantro" whereas most of the English-speaking world says "coriander". However, I am not sure if you're literally referring to the roots of the plant that are sometimes cut off when the herb is sold in bunches. Do you mean the entire plant, not just the leaves---or remove the leaves and use what remains? Or is there a globular root vegetable that I have never seen, akin to what is called "beetroot" everywhere else except the States?

[torakris]

torakris: I'm not too familiar with "Western" chilies, but if you'll go to this link to my blog Phrik 101 and scroll down to the 4th pic, you'll find an image of phrik chii faa, the chili in question. They tend to be the length of, say, a pen, and aren't too spicy.

Austin

←

Wow! Thanks, that primer is incredible not to mention incredibly goregous. I am assuming that will be part of your book?

Not currently living in the US, I am not sure how available they are. I know I will probably not be able to find them in Japan. If you give something like a spiciness rating we can figure out what to substitute.

[trillium]

Kristin, those are just a variation of cayenne peppers that are dried. Are you not able to find anything like that in Japan?

Not to steal any of Austin's thunder, but in Kasma Loha-unchit's books she goes very extensively into what chillies you might substitute for what. Are you able to get Mexican types of chillies? If you are, then I can look up what she suggests and report back. For kaffir lime peel she suggests using the dried, refreshed in water, or none at all.

Also, blenders tend to give a better result for grinding (instead of mincing) then food processors, but you need a lot of patience to keep pushing the stuff down. In South Asian shops here in the US you can buy smaller screw on jars for your Oster blender that helps to avoid that problem.

regards,

trillium

[Austin]

Nick: Actually the book is all about southern Thai food, and I think those noodles are actually a central dish. I agree with what you're saying, but I think will "stay the path" for two reasons: 1. This is a book on regional Thai cooking and I'm trying to keep it as specific/authentic as possible. 2. Again, being a book of regional dishes, the commercial versions of many of these curry pastes simply aren't available, even in Bangkok.

Pontormo: Coriander and cilantro are the exact same thing. The roots are just that; the thin, white hard roots of this herb. Yes, you're right, they're usually cut off when the cilantro/coriander is sold, but maybe you can find them at an Asian grocery (I'm assuming you're in the West?)?

As far as I know, the book will mostly be distributed in Asia (the publishing company is located in Singapore). So I'm assuming that most people will have access to the ingredients.

torakris: Actually I just did the primer for my blog, but maybe I can include something in the book?

trillium: That's an interesting suggestion--I've yet to try blender myself. Would one of those small spice grinders work? Again, I think the best compromise would be to blend/process first, then finish in a mortar and pestle.

[Pontormo]

Austin:

Yes, I know that cilantro & coriander are the same thing. Cf. original post. The reference to roots threw me.

Paula Wolfert offers explicit instructions in one recipe calling for spinach stems and roots. In the ingredients list for a Turkish stew she specifies length of stems and in Step 1 of the recipe's text, she is very explicit about the way the bunch of spinach is to be handled, including trimming the roots, cutting "each clump in half (without separating the stems from the root base)..."

For someone not used to using roots of herbs in recipes, who associates the word "roots" with the tough, fibrous stringy material at the base of the plant, just a little more specificity and/or description would be useful. If you use the roots in a number of recipes, maybe an appendix in the back would be helpful.

[trillium]

No, the small spice (coffee grinders) wouldn't work. You need a powerful motor and really sharp blender blades.

And the blender really does work better then the food processor, but it needs to be a good blender (like an Oster). You can buy 1 and 2 cup glass and stainless containers that screw into the rings that fit onto your blender at Indian/South Asian grocery stores. Or be brave and use a canning jar. It's that or keep pushing stuff down when you're using the big blender jar. It's not the same as pounded, but it's much, much closer then using a food processer. All those mamajis can't be wrong, right?

here is a picture of the sort of thing I'm talking about.

regards,

trillium

Edited April 13, 2006 by trillium (log)

[ludja]

No, the small spice (coffee grinders) wouldn't work.  You need a powerful motor and really sharp blender blades.

And the blender really does work better then the food processor, but it needs to be a good blender (like an Oster).  You can buy 1 and 2 cup glass and stainless containers that screw into the rings that fit onto your blender at Indian/South Asian grocery stores.  Or be brave and use a canning jar.  It's that or keep pushing stuff down when you're using the big blender jar.  It's not the same as pounded, but it's much, much closer then using a food processer.  All those mamajis can't be wrong, right?

here is a picture of the sort of thing I'm talking about.

regards,

trillium

←

Thank you very much for this tip, trillium. This sounds like a great thing to have and I hadn't been aware of them.

[trillium]

Glad I could pass it on, it's a nifty thing I learned about in the good old days of rec.food.cooking. Makes the blender much better suited for small amounts that need to be ground.

You shouldn't have much trouble finding the Indian stainless steel ones in the bay area, but for those who can't and feel brave, canning jars match the threads on the Oster blender bases too.

regards,

trillium

[NickLam]

Cheers Austin, you've got a good point on being focused as a regional cookbook and authenticity. Well, ahaha I guess I will have to wait a while longer for the lazy person's Thai Cookbook!

But if your distribution is in Asia, people won't have problems having access to the ingredients.....except maybe China.

In Malaysia and Indo, they definitely have the ingredients for Thai cooking, but Indo may not have Kaffir limes, though they may have frozen ones (They have frozen ones in Australia).

In Singapore, we have Thai supermarkets out in the suburbs coz of the high population of Thai workers there. There are 2 within a 5 kilometre radius of my flat.

In Japan, my ex-girlfriend's favourite is Pad Thai and she can find all Thai ingredients there, including Kaffir lime and pea aubergines.

China....whilst I was living in Shanghai, didn't really come across any places selling these things, but there are Thai restaurants there....so they have to get their stuff from somewhere!

All the best for your book and take care in your travels to the South! Ahahah you are going where even my local friends dare not go!

[miladyinsanity]

Austin, depending on the distribution of the book, you might like to have a list of possible substitutes for the harder to find stuff. Yeah, it won't taste the same, but it'd be useful.

[C. sapidus]

Austin: I used you recipe to make the Panang curry paste. The aroma was mouth-watering, and I can’t wait to make the curry on Tuesday. Your instructions are remarkably clear, and illuminated a few points that I had not previously grasped. In response to your request, I jotted down a few minor questions and comments. Some may be more relevant than others.

Do you add ingredients to the mortar in a particular order? If so, you may want to specify. In my limited experience, it seems more efficient to pound the paste in stages. I first pound the drier and tougher ingredients (lemon grass, galangal, etc.), and then afterwards add ingredients with higher water content (garlic, shallots, etc.).

“Large dried chilies 20, softened in warm water”

Since chilies originated in South and Central America and have been cultivated there since antiquity, the number and variety of “large dried chilies” is mind-boggling. Even though you are aiming at the Asian market, specifying Western equivalents for Thai chilies could make the recipes more approachable for millions of folks. Perhaps your publisher would pay for a chile fact-finding tour.

“Chopped kaffir lime peel 1 tsp”

For better or worse, I used dried kaffir lime peel. Fresh is rarely available here, even through mail-order.

“Salt ½ tsp”

It would be more accurate to specify whether to use fine or coarse salt. “. . . a tablespoon of finely powdered salt will contain more salt by weight than a tablespoon of coarse salt because there is less air space between the small grains than the large grains.”

Thanks again – your contributions are greatly valued.

Bruce

[Austin]

Bruce: Wonderful, I'm excited you made it and look forward seeing your results here (incidentally, I'll be making it again soon here and will post the results as well).

Some of my Thai language cookbooks suggest grinding the big chilies and the salt together first. This is a good idea, as the big chilies are, for me at least, the hardest to grind up finely, and I think the salt would help this process. I usually just grind it all together at the same time.

Regarding chilies, maybe I'll do a sort of intro to Thai chilies somewhere in the book. And no, I don't think my publisher is willing to pay for that (I'll be lucky to make a profit on this!).

Wow, I've never actually heard of or seen dried kaffir lime peel. Might want to use less, as some dried things are actually more pungent than their fresh counterparts!

The recipe refers to finely ground salt.

[C. sapidus]

Austin, I finished making your Panang curry, and served it for dinner with rice. I could still taste the curry an hour after dinner (in a good way). The instructions were clear, and I adjusted the seasoning with a little extra sugar and fish sauce just before serving. Elder son pronounced the curry “not too spicy” and ate a lot. Younger son surprised me by eating some of the meat and declaring it “spicy but good”. Ms. Sapidus was expecting peanuts in the curry because many local restaurants make it that way. Although the curry confounded her expectations, she still liked it a lot.

I loved the curry, and will definitely make it again. The smidgeon of leftovers will be tomorrow’s lunch (or possibly breakfast). Yeah, breakfast.

Would palm sugar be traditional in Panang curry? Some Thai curry recipes specify palm sugar as a sweetener (with brown sugar as a substitute). Darker sugar seems to round out curry flavors nicely.

Bruce

[Austin]

Bruce: Wonderful, did you take any photos? Would be nice to see the result! I also made it again today, here's mine (and the photo will probably go in the cookbook as well):

Yes, peanuts are common in this dish, but I prefer this version. And yes, palm sugar is a common sweeter. I reckon brown sugar would be an OK substitute, although the flavors are not exactly the same. Maybe a blend of white and palm? Although honestly, I don't like sweet, so I go VERY easy on the sugar.

Incidentally, doing this cookbook and testing these recipes has been wonderful for the old lady living next door to me. I'll make these dishes and give her half (or all, as with today's curry). She loves my cooking, which is a supreme compliment considering that she's obviously eaten lots of Thai food over the years! Last time I made penaeng she said she really liked it because it "wasn't as sweet" as the curries you get at restaurants!

Austin

[C. sapidus]

Austin: anticipation had been building for two days, so we tore right into the curry without stopping to take pictures. I’ll see if I can make the leftovers presentable, but they definitely won’t rival your photos.

Thanks for the information about sugar. I probably added an extra teaspoon of sugar at the end.

I'm glad that your neighbor liked your curry. It is always reassuring to get positive feedback from a native. I once had a similar experience when I brought flan to a pot luck dinner. Several gringos were underwhelmed, but a gentleman who had lived in Mexico City loved it.

Bruce

[sanrensho]

Last time I made penaeng she said she really liked it because it "wasn't as sweet" as the curries you get at restaurants!

That's interesting. I'm guessing you don't cook from English Thai cookbooks (nor have any need to), but do you feel that Thai recipes in English typically recommend too much sugar?

I'll second the comment about white sugar, I was surprised not to see palm sugar in its place.

[C. sapidus]

Austin: I used your recipe as a starting point to make a Panang curry with shrimp. To make my wife happy, I added 4 tablespoons of roasted, ground peanuts to the curry paste. I also added half a nutmeg, pounded and roasted, to the paste. The peanuts were a good addition, but I’m not sure that the nutmeg added much to the flavor.

We peeled the shrimp, stir-fried them in a hot wok, and then added them to the curry just before serving. I substituted palm sugar for white sugar, and used long Thai chilies for garnish. The long Thai chilies taste very similar to medium-hot Cayenne chilies that I found in the grocery store.

Following your excellent advice in the recipe, I simmered the curry paste in the coconut cream for at least 20 minutes. This helped mellow the shrimp paste and better integrate its flavor with the rest of the curry. My wife thought that the curry tasted “more mature” and “less like fish sauce”.

This is what the leftovers looked like the next morning (there wasn't much rice left).

Bruce

[Austin]

Bruce: Looks awesome! Despite being from SE Asia, nutmeg is not used in any curry pastes that I'm aware of (although mace sometimes is), so I'm not sure if that flavor would really "work". Peanuts are a common option in this particular curry.

I'm glad you found my instructions easy to follow. I'm trying to make them as clear as possible for those who may not be familiar with Thai food. I'm also trying to adapt them a bit, for instance frying the curry paste for 20 minutes. Most Thai cooks wouldn't bother to take this much time. I've found that following some Western cooking techniques, namely slowing things down a bit, can improve Thai dishes.

Austin