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Entertaining for business


therese

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I no longer do the wine and dine for customer. Money is inbound, not out and I don't care that its a company expense, part of my job is to also think of the company's fiscal health.

It has become generally unnecessary to wine and dine in order to "close" business in my space, or at least unnecessary for me :raz: . My current philosophy on the subject is that the customers should sign and give me money and in return they get a product they need..period end of story! :biggrin:

As long as the product value for $ equation remains win-win for both parties there is the possibility for great personal and rewarding relationship development without the extra splurges.

This attitude of mine has come about based on very long strings of awful experiences. Expense account dining on the sales rep seems to bring out the absolute worst in people. The food is usually fantastic, the best available in some cases. It is the company that rots, its the guy who chews with his mouth open with food flying everywhere, the one who tells inappropriate jokes and expects the whole table to laugh out loud all night, the ones who buy the 2nd and 3rd bottle of +$100 wine or the one who orders a to-go meal for someone not at the table. They suck and I wouldn't be caught dead kissing butt with my tounge out for them.

That being said, I had a great dinner with a group of customers while I was in S. Carolina this week. Beers, burgers, lots of shots, NCCA basketball and a awesome time was had by all. What makes this even better is that when the check came, they all went for their wallets. It was my pleasure to pick up that check.

-Mike

Edited by NYC Mike (log)

-Mike & Andrea

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Okay, having started this thread I need to go ahead and contribute.

I end up eating out for work pretty frequently, in lots of different contexts.

Right now I'm recruiting for a position in my division, so have been out to five different places in an many weeks with candidates we've invited to interview. I get to pick the restaurant and I get to pick the other guests at dinner from among my colleagues: fortunately I've got some very pleasant co-workers and so know that they'll be good dinner companions no matter what.

I've been invited to look at a job in another city later this month, and so I'll officially be wined and dined four times over the course of that visit. These meals are really interviews, of course---I'm interviewing them while they interview me, so everybody's generally very pleasant, and I already know some of them in any case.

I also do lots of work dinners when traveling to meetings in the U.S. and abroad. These are a combination of work and pleasure, and generally everybody picks up his/her own tab, or the entire tab is picked up by the meeting organizer. Sometimes this is in the person of a vendor or commercial meeting sponsor, but more frequently it's the head of the organizing committee or whatever (who later submits the bill for reimbursement---I'm often this person). Sometimes the meal's arranged ahead of time and catered. More about that later.

The sort of dinner that I rarely attend is the sort that NYC Mike describes with such eloquence:

Expense account dining on the sales rep seems to bring out the absolute worst in people.  The food is usually fantastic, the best available in some cases.  It is the company that rots, its the guy who chews with his mouth open with food flying everywhere, the one who tells inappropriate jokes and expects the whole table to laugh out loud all night, the ones who buy the 2nd and 3rd bottle of +$100 wine or the one who orders a to-go meal for someone not at the table. 

I've have, very occasionally, had to endure meals like this. I'm not sure if it's the expense account itself, or just the fact that a certain sort of person really really wants somebody else to buy him/her dinner and so is more likely to get in on these sorts of evenings. The point of these dinners doesn't seem to be actual work or even a collegial meal among professionals who are all in the same place at the same time for a meeting, but extortion.

And even more unfortunately for me, NYC Mike's not been the one arranging these diners when I'm along, and the food's consequently not usually fantastic, but mostly sort of mediocre (albeit expensive). So like Mike I've gotten pretty wary about these sorts of outings, carefully (if politely) vetting the venue and guest list before accepting the invitation. I've actually left this sort of meal early, pleading a headache or an early morning the next day, something that might seem unbelievably rude were it not for the fact that there's nothing the least bit polite about the evening in the first place.

I do know some very pleasant reps with whom I'm happy to dine when traveling, but prefer the sorts of restaurants that aren't designed for expense accounts, and insist on talking about work for at least some of the meal. Not hard, of course, because it's what we've got in common.

I've been trying to watch how much I chew with my mouth open, too.

Can you pee in the ocean?

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So, a story.

This was about a year ago. I was the organizer for a local conference, and the speakers were all colleagues. At the end of the conference I invited everybody to dinner (along with spouses) as a thank you. [An aside: The whole issue of whether this sort of meal can be considered a thank you or an obligation is a sticky one, I think, and I'm careful to let the speakers know that they're under no obligation to attend. This is the third year we've done it now, though, and not only do the speakers come, but they ask me in advance whether we'll be having the dinner and where so that their wives will know what to wear. So they don't seem to mind in this instance.]

I'd picked the restaurant well in advance, and know the chef and had asked for a particular table (tables, really). Total guests 20-odd, so I asked the chef if he'd prefer to do a set menu, but he was fine with just ordering normally (which I also prefer). So, there we all were, happy after a successful conference and looking over the menu while we sipped before dinner drinks. I ordered wine (perfectly nice wine, too---the manager and wine director at this place had a very nice list and I chose a white and a red) which arrived while we were placing our orders, and then I noticed a waiter carry another bottle of wine towards the other end of the table.

Turned out that one of the speakers had taken it upon himself to order additional wine, more expensive (though not incredibly so) and just a bottle for his end of the table. Despite my being at the other end of the table I managed to keep this bottle from being opened, and made it very clear that I was the alpha dog at the table and would be making those decisions, thank you very much.

The speaker in question is a colleague that I've known for a long time: he's much older than me, but I'm clearly senior in rank and was also clearly the host for the dinner. He'd somehow assumed that the rules (such as they are) that seem to govern sales rep dinners (he attends a lot of sales rep sponsored dinners and meetings) had nothing whatsoever to do with the present evening. That I'm female might have led him to try and exploit the situation a bit as well.

Anyway, lovely dinner. This year's was also lovely. Unfortunately he was unable to attend, as I didn't invite him to speak.

Edited by therese (log)

Can you pee in the ocean?

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This year's dinner was in another restaurant. Same circumstances, largely the same crowd, but the restaurant is a much larger one that does a lot of group dinners, enough to actually have a catering manager and various separate rooms that can be used for groups. I'd originally contacted the chef (because I know him) and he'd given me the name of the catering manager because it was a large party.

After a few phone calls in which I explained that I wanted to be seated in the main dining room (Sunday night, so plenty of availability) and order off the regular menu, not a set menu, she faxed me a quote. The quote specified a set menu of various shared appetizers (<shudder>) followed by a choice of any one of the three most boring things on the menu followed by similarly boring desserts. Given that I'd chosen this restaurant specifically because the chef offers particularly inventive food I once again made it very clear that I didn't want to pre-pay for the dinner or limit my guests' choices in any way, and that I'd be happy to pay (well, our employer would be happy to pay) for whatever they chose. The only reason I was talking to her at all was that the party was so large that I didn't want to just show up.

So, weird as it all sounded to her we just all came and had dinner. And it was great.

I'm going to have to come up with something really amazing for next year.

Can you pee in the ocean?

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and then I noticed a waiter carry another bottle of wine towards the other end of the table.

Turned out that one of the speakers had taken it upon himself to order additional wine, more expensive (though not incredibly so) and just a bottle for his end of the table. Despite my being at the other end of the table I managed to keep this bottle from being opened, and made it very clear that I was the alpha dog at the table and would be making those decisions, thank you very much.

The speaker in question is a colleague that I've known for a long time: he's much older than me, but I'm clearly senior in rank and was also clearly the host for the dinner. He'd somehow assumed that the rules (such as they are) that seem to govern sales rep dinners (he attends a lot of sales rep sponsored dinners and meetings) had nothing whatsoever to do with the present evening. That I'm female might have led him to try and exploit the situation a bit as well.

Is there a scenario in which someone could have ordered a different bottle without offense being taken? While your presence here (on this forum) leads me to believe you probably have good taste in wine and didn't buy swill, it is nonetheless a matter of taste. I can see myself quietly ordering a bottle if what was served was counter to my taste enough that I thought the otherwise-enjoyable meal would be compromised. Of course, I would do so having every intention of paying for it myself.

You certainly know your colleague better than I and probably rightly guessed his motives, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here (you know the drill - read, chew, discuss). I can think of several reasons someone might do this (sulfite sensitivity being an extreme one; most wine lists today have an organic or natural or whatever you label it offering that doesn't have sulfites).

Judy Jones aka "moosnsqrl"

Sharing food with another human being is an intimate act that should not be indulged in lightly.

M.F.K. Fisher

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Is there a scenario in which someone could have ordered a different bottle without offense being taken?  While your presence here (on this forum) leads me to believe you probably have good taste in wine and didn't buy swill, it is nonetheless a matter of taste.  I can see myself quietly ordering a bottle if what was served was counter to my taste enough that I thought the otherwise-enjoyable meal would be compromised.  Of course, I would do so having every intention of paying for it myself. 

You certainly know your colleague better than I and probably rightly guessed his motives, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here (you know the drill - read, chew, discuss).  I can think of several reasons someone might do this (sulfite sensitivity being an extreme one; most wine lists today have an organic or natural or whatever you label it offering that doesn't have sulfites).

Problematic, actually. For starters it would be extra hassle for the waiter. True, not that much hassle, but it's already a huge hassle waiting on this large a party and that's one of the reasons I let the waiter know up front, sotto voce, that I'll be handling the bill and any problems that might arise.

I've been in this position myself and generally elect to either drink a bit of whatever plonk's being served or just skip the wine and order a second cocktail if the food suits (which it often does if the wine's plonk) or a wine by the glass. There is absolutely no way I'd ever, under any circumstances, order an entire bottle just for me, even if I somehow managed to pay for it.

My colleague (who pulled this stunt because he is a boor, not because he's particularly into wine) could have ordered wine by the glass if he'd wanted to and I'd not have noticed and not have minded if I had.

Can you pee in the ocean?

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So, a story.

This was about a year ago. I was the organizer for a local conference, and the speakers were all colleagues. At the end of the conference I invited everybody to dinner (along with spouses) as a thank you. [An aside: The whole issue of whether this sort of meal can be considered a thank you or an obligation is a sticky one, I think, and I'm careful to let the speakers know that they're under no obligation to attend. This is the third year we've done it now, though, and not only do the speakers come, but they ask me in advance whether we'll be having the dinner and where so that their wives will know what to wear. So they don't seem to mind in this instance.]

I'd picked the restaurant well in advance, and know the chef and had asked for a particular table (tables, really). Total guests 20-odd, so I asked the chef if he'd prefer to do a set menu, but he was fine with just ordering normally (which I also prefer). So, there we all were, happy after a successful conference and looking over the menu while we sipped before dinner drinks. I ordered wine (perfectly nice wine, too---the manager and wine director at this place had a very nice list and I chose a white and a red) which arrived while we were placing our orders, and then I noticed a waiter carry another bottle of wine towards the other end of the table.

Turned out that one of the speakers had taken it upon himself to order additional wine, more expensive (though not incredibly so) and just a bottle for his end of the table. Despite my being at the other end of the table I managed to keep this bottle from being opened, and made it very clear that I was the alpha dog at the table and would be making those decisions, thank you very much.

The speaker in question is a colleague that I've known for a long time: he's much older than me, but I'm clearly senior in rank and was also clearly the host for the dinner. He'd somehow assumed that the rules (such as they are) that seem to govern sales rep dinners (he attends a lot of sales rep sponsored dinners and meetings) had nothing whatsoever to do with the present evening. That I'm female might have led him to try and exploit the situation a bit as well.

Anyway, lovely dinner. This year's was also lovely. Unfortunately he was unable to attend, as I didn't invite him to speak.

Let me get this straight... you invited the speakers of this event as GUESTS to a restaurant, and then when one person (who was a speaker) ordered a bottle of wine, you nixed it so as to embarrass him and put him in his place since you were the "alpha dog."

Forget this guy being boorish. You behaved worse than that. You treated a guest to a down-sizing for your own enjoyment so you could be recognized as THE "alpha dog."

A guest is a guest, and, no, you don't have to ever invite them back, but while they are YOUR guest, you have a responsibility to treat them kindly. And that you didn't do… even worse… you did it intentionally.

Rhonda

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Along the lines of ordering wine with dinner I have another story.

This takes place about seven years ago. I've been invited along to dinner with an invited speaker, a very senior guy. The host is a colleague, a bit senior to me but in another department. Also attending the dinner is my boss, very senior to both me and the host, but not the person who invited the speaker and so not the host for the meal. The reason he's been invited is that he's an old friend of the speaker.

So dinner's in a very fancy expense account sort of place, and because it's a work dinner we're there early and it's all sort hushed and quiet. The waiter asks if we'd like a cocktail before dinner and the host declines on his own part, but then does not ask the rest of us if we'd like one, so that's the end of that.

We proceed to ordering our meals, and then we hand over our menus, and then we wait. Because apparently the host has either forgotten or doesn't know that he needs to order wine, and the waiter isn't going to remind him after the no cocktail episode.

Finally (and it's a long finally---there's somebody else at this dinner whom I don't like who is making a point of being a complete pain in the butt in a very passive aggressive way and it's all a bit uncomfortable) our first courses arrive. As the waiter leans over to set down my dish I manage to murmur "Bring me a glass of merlot. Any merlot, I don't care." He returns in something like 20 seconds (clearly recognizing desperation when he hears it) with the glass. My boss, seated to my left, notices it, and instantly leans over to hiss "Hey, where'd you get that?" And I told him and he ordered one as well and finally our host realized that he'd not ordered wine and did so, just asking for a bottle of whatever I'd been given.

The funniest thing about this entire episode is the fact that my boss was a very proper sort of guy, very aware of what is and isn't socially okay, but desperate situations call for desperate measures.

There are instances in which I wouldn't have ordered any alcohol at all, of course, specifically those in which I knew or suspected that my host didn't drink or buy alcohol for religious reasons, or if I knew there was some sort of substance abuse issue. This was neither, just a clueless host.

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Let me get this straight... you invited the speakers of this event as GUESTS to a restaurant, and then when one person (who was a speaker) ordered a bottle of wine, you nixed it so as to embarrass him and put him in his place since you were the "alpha dog."

Forget this guy being boorish.  You behaved worse than that.  You treated a guest to a down-sizing for your own enjoyment so you could be recognized as THE "alpha dog."

A guest is a guest, and, no, you don't have to ever invite them back, but while they are YOUR guest, you have a responsibility to treat them kindly.  And that you didn't do… even worse… you did it intentionally.

Seriously? You would order a bottle of wine at a dinner to which you'd been invited? A dinner for which wine had already been ordered and was being poured? Without asking your host?

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Let me get this straight... you invited the speakers of this event as GUESTS to a restaurant, and then when one person (who was a speaker) ordered a bottle of wine, you nixed it so as to embarrass him and put him in his place since you were the "alpha dog."

Forget this guy being boorish.  You behaved worse than that.  You treated a guest to a down-sizing for your own enjoyment so you could be recognized as THE "alpha dog."

A guest is a guest, and, no, you don't have to ever invite them back, but while they are YOUR guest, you have a responsibility to treat them kindly.  And that you didn't do… even worse… you did it intentionally.

Seriously? You would order a bottle of wine at a dinner to which you'd been invited? A dinner for which wine had already been ordered and was being poured? Without asking your host?

No, I would never do that, but I've had guests do that. And for one corporate event, which I'd set up, a manufacturer guest wanted a special brand of scotch that wasn't on the menu. The private club where we held the event told him he couldn't have it because it wasn't included in our contract (I didn't know that). He told me, and IMMEDIATELY on the spot I had them bring me the catering contract and wrote in that anyone could order anything they wanted and the cost would be covered. I went to the office to do that, and all he knew was that in the next few moments a waiter brought him his drink.

In your case, we know your motives -- to show him who had rank, but we don't know his. Maybe he didn't know and he only wanted to order some wine he liked. You said yourself it was a little more expensive, but not much. What did you do? Put him "in his place." What you did to him in that process was not a class act. If you were really the alpha dog of this place, you wouldn't have felt threatened enough to have to act like that.

Rhonda

Edited by PopsicleToze (log)
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I'm relatively early in starting out in my career, so I've only been to one of these workdinner functions, and after that experience of pure hell, I'm really dreading any more of them.

So me, along with a group of about eight other people were invited to Really Expensive Trendy Sushi Joint. I was excited because I'd been dying to go there, and the menu is really innovative. We got sat, bottles of sake were poured, and the host begins to order. And orders the absolute safest, most boring, non-Japanese dishes on the menu. I was so disappointed I thought I would cry. Here I was at a restaurant I'd been dreaming about going to, looking at a menu with some of the coolest things I'd ever seen, and the host is ordering tekamaki, which I eat at least once a week. I my head I was screaming, "NO NO!! Someone stop him! He doesn't know what he's doing! I lived in Japan! I love food! Let me order something!" Of course, I said nothing of the sort, and sat through one of the most depressing meals of my life, the whole time eyeing what other tables were eating with a longing that would have surpassed the ubiquitous Oliver.

-Sounds awfully rich!

-It is! That's why I serve it with ice cream to cut the sweetness!

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Forget this guy being boorish.  You behaved worse than that.  You treated a guest to a down-sizing for your own enjoyment so you could be recognized as THE "alpha dog."

A guest is a guest, and, no, you don't have to ever invite them back, but while they are YOUR guest, you have a responsibility to treat them kindly.  And that you didn't do… even worse… you did it intentionally.

And before this discussion gets too very far out of hand let me point out that I know this guy pretty well and in fact he was trying to "hijack" the dinner. I didn't make a big deal about my being the alpha dog or anything (though of course he got the message), just smiled sweetly while pointing out that I'd already ordered wine.

That he wasn't invited to speak the next year had nothing to do with dinner, and everything to do with his chronically missing planning deadlines for the conference, to the extent that conference attendees complained.

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Problematic, actually.  For starters it would be extra hassle for the waiter.  True, not that much hassle, but it's already a huge hassle waiting on this large a party and that's one of the reasons I let the waiter know up front, sotto voce, that I'll be handling the bill and any problems that might arise.

I've been in this position myself and generally elect to either drink a bit of whatever plonk's being served or just skip the wine and order a second cocktail if the food suits (which it often does if the wine's plonk) or a wine by the glass. There is absolutely no way I'd ever, under any circumstances, order an entire bottle just for me, even if I somehow managed to pay for it.

My colleague (who pulled this stunt because he is a boor, not because he's particularly into wine) could have ordered wine by the glass if he'd wanted to and I'd not have noticed and not have minded if I had.

Ah, I see. In that case, I would probably spill some of the red on him and call it even. :wink:

Judy Jones aka "moosnsqrl"

Sharing food with another human being is an intimate act that should not be indulged in lightly.

M.F.K. Fisher

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And for one corporate event, which I'd set up, a manufacturer guest wanted a special brand of scotch that wasn't on the menu.  The private club where we held the event told him he couldn't have it because it wasn't included in our contract (I didn't know that).  He told me, and IMMEDIATELY on the spot I had them bring me the catering contract and wrote in that anyone could order anything they wanted and the cost would be covered.  I went to the office to do that, and all he knew was that in the next few moments a waiter brought him his drink.

Sounds like we're in very different situations. The manufacturer guest (and I'll use the term guest here loosely---you're wining and dining in the hopes of either initiating or maintaining a profitable relationship with him, right?) not only ordered a presumably premium scotch, but then informed you when it wasn't available. So he's clearly the alpha dog, and it's clearly your job to reinforce his position. Which you did, and that's cool.

As host of the dinner I describe it was my job to make my guests comfortable. It was my guests' job (and yes, this is a two way street) to enjoy the evening. It was not this particular guest's job to assume the role of host, or to order "better" wine than the rest of the table was drinking. I agree that ideally I'd not have had to deal with it at all, but I was also not delighted at the prospect of my other guests feeling second rate, nor at the prospect of turning in a receipt to my administrator that was out of proportion to what I'd normally spend. I don't work in the private sector.

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So me, along with a group of about eight other people were invited to Really Expensive Trendy Sushi Joint. I was excited because I'd been dying to go there, and the menu is really innovative. We got sat, bottles of sake were poured, and the host begins to order. And orders the absolute safest, most boring, non-Japanese dishes on the menu. I was so disappointed I thought I would cry. Here I was at a restaurant I'd been dreaming about going to, looking at a menu with some of the coolest things I'd ever seen, and the host is ordering tekamaki, which I eat at least once a week. I my head I was screaming, "NO NO!! Someone stop him! He doesn't know what he's doing! I lived in Japan! I love food! Let me order something!" Of course, I said nothing of the sort, and sat through one of the most depressing meals of my life, the whole time eyeing what other tables were eating with a longing that would have surpassed the ubiquitous Oliver.

Yep, been there and done that. More typically you're in a restaurant that you know or suspect has great food, but you're ordering from a set menu: chicken or pasta, and very boring chicken or pasta at that. I just gut it out.

Particularly depressing at Expensive Trendy Sushi Joint. Just remember, it could have been worse. You could have been eating at Maggiano's or The Cheesecake Factory.

Can you pee in the ocean?

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On the flip side of my never go out of pocket for buyers senario is going out with the team I work with. If we are all away from home and "on the road" we will generally eat and drink obscene amounts. :cool:

We have a nice tidy rule that saves everyone trouble, most senior person pays.

But then again, that's not really entertaining, its just getting drunk and eating too much with friends.

-Mike

Edited by NYC Mike (log)

-Mike & Andrea

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We have a nice tidy rule that saves everyone trouble, most senior person pays.

A very good rule. I'm generally in groups where there's not much disparity in seniority and then I tend to benefit from another rule, the "girls never pay" rule (unless they're reps, and then they're not really paying). Sometimes I insist. :wink:

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Just remember, it could have been worse. You could have been eating at Maggiano's or The Cheesecake Factory.

Ha! So true! This is the same reason I often beg off lunches with coworkers. As soon as I hear the dreaded, "oooh! What about The Olive Garden!" I'm out.

-Sounds awfully rich!

-It is! That's why I serve it with ice cream to cut the sweetness!

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My memorably bad business dining experiences have all been with colleagues who don't treat restaurant staff very well. I had this one very senior colleague who always pulled waitstaff's chains to the point where it would take over the whole meal, especially if any of the servers were female. He would start by putting his menu aside as if he was ready to order, and then when the server came he would act all pseudo-flustered like he was a little kid and she was a teacher trying to pick up test papers and he wasn't done. He might get her to come back three times before she got an order out of him. While someone was opening a bottle of wine he would say, "We always send the first bottle back." (We got a corked bottle once and he didn't send it back.) He made all staff stand around while he told jokes and flirted with the women. One server went slightly ballistic and asked, "Is he always like this?" Luckily, he thought that was cute so her tip didn't suffer.

Edited by Tess (log)
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As soon as I hear the dreaded, "oooh! What about The Olive Garden!" I'm out.

Yeah. I've been known to come down with sudden satiety at the idea of Olive Garden.

A few years ago a colleague and I were asked to come to San Jose to participate in a sort of focus group/ask the experts session for a vendor. Because we're interested in making sure that the vendor develops products that support our work we went, me from Atlanta and him from Baltimore. We were grilled (questioned, I mean) for hours, fed lunch at the company (not bad, considering) and then it was out to dinner.

Both of us happen to be really into food, and since we've known people at the company in question for years our host was well aware of the fact. In fact she made a point of telling us earlier in the day that she'd picked out a great place, a restaurant that was new and getting great reviews, and even though my colleague was feeling a bit under the weather with a brewing cold he decided to join us.

So of we go, driving through the endless pavement jungle of Silicon Valley to our destination: Macaroni Grill. At the time I think it was spelled Maccaroni Grill.

Anyway, there it was, rising magnificently from the expansive parking lot, and I really did just want feign some sort of fit right there on the asphalt. My colleague clearly wanted to cry, as he could have been back in his hotel room in a hot bath, slipping into an antihistamine-driven hallucinatory state. But we girded our loins and went inside and ate a really average meal.

Our host for the evening was very sweet and gracious, and I'm pretty sure nobody ever told her that Macaroni Grill is not necessarily the ideal venue for entertaining snotty out of town visitors. I do know that her boss nearly had a stroke when he heard (not from me) where we'd been.

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My memorably bad business dining experiences have all been with colleagues who don't treat restaurant staff very well. I had this one very senior colleague who always pulled waitstaff's chains to the point where it would take over the whole meal, especially if any of the servers were female. He would start by putting his menu aside as if he was ready to order, and then when the server came he would act all pseudo-flustered like he was a little kid and she was a teacher trying to pick up test papers and he wasn't done. He might get her to come back three times before she got an order out of him.  While someone was opening a bottle of wine he would say, "We always send the first bottle back." (We got a corked bottle once and he didn't send it back.) He made all staff stand around while he told jokes and flirted with the women.  One server went slightly ballistic and asked, "Is he always like this?" Luckily, he thought that was cute so her tip didn't suffer.

Do you think you could arrange for me to meet this guy? Because I think I'd really enjoy, um, talking to him.

Come to think of it maybe we've already met.

One of my favorite dinners ever was at an upmarket Greek restaurant here in Atlanta. I was one of two invited speakers, and one of the guests was a very senior, mostly retired dermatologist who spent a great deal of the evening insisting that I'd surely had plastic surgery, as I couldn't possibly be as young as I looked. His wife finally told him to shut the hell up (but nicely, of course).

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We have a nice tidy rule that saves everyone trouble, most senior person pays.

A very good rule. I'm generally in groups where there's not much disparity in seniority and then I tend to benefit from another rule, the "girls never pay" rule (unless they're reps, and then they're not really paying). Sometimes I insist. :wink:

Heh. You got it backwards. Junior person pays, senior person signs off on the expense. What are you thinking? Plus, the poor person gets the Amex points.

Worked for a while with a director whose husband was a chef. We were giving out a grant one time in San Francisco (I gave away money for about six months for a corporate foundation. Tougher than it sounds, but not a bad life, and you were able to buy dedicated dedicated non-profit employees good food) and I bribed the concierge into talking our way into a booked and then- (still?)-hot Rubicon for a $400 lunch for three. Pahlmeyer chard. Nice flight home.

I'm on the pavement

Thinking about the government.

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So, a story.

This was about a year ago. I was the organizer for a local conference, and the speakers were all colleagues. At the end of the conference I invited everybody to dinner (along with spouses) as a thank you. [An aside: The whole issue of whether this sort of meal can be considered a thank you or an obligation is a sticky one, I think, and I'm careful to let the speakers know that they're under no obligation to attend. This is the third year we've done it now, though, and not only do the speakers come, but they ask me in advance whether we'll be having the dinner and where so that their wives will know what to wear. So they don't seem to mind in this instance.]

I'd picked the restaurant well in advance, and know the chef and had asked for a particular table (tables, really). Total guests 20-odd, so I asked the chef if he'd prefer to do a set menu, but he was fine with just ordering normally (which I also prefer). So, there we all were, happy after a successful conference and looking over the menu while we sipped before dinner drinks. I ordered wine (perfectly nice wine, too---the manager and wine director at this place had a very nice list and I chose a white and a red) which arrived while we were placing our orders, and then I noticed a waiter carry another bottle of wine toward the other end of the table.

Turned out that one of the speakers had taken it upon himself to order additional wine, more expensive (though not incredibly so) and just a bottle for his end of the table. Despite my being at the other end of the table I managed to keep this bottle from being opened, and made it very clear that I was the alpha dog at the table and would be making those decisions, thank you very much.

The speaker in question is a colleague that I've known for a long time: he's much older than me, but I'm clearly senior in rank and was also clearly the host for the dinner. He'd somehow assumed that the rules (such as they are) that seem to govern sales rep dinners (he attends a lot of sales rep sponsored dinners and meetings) had nothing whatsoever to do with the present evening. That I'm female might have led him to try and exploit the situation a bit as well.

Anyway, lovely dinner. This year's was also lovely. Unfortunately he was unable to attend, as I didn't invite him to speak.

therese:

Having set up various Restaurant operations that are service orientated it has always been the policy that we set up operations where management does not issue separate checks, always makes sure that the host is acknowledged by every service person working the party or separated hosted tables as being in charge of ordering anything not arranged previously by the host.

This would have allowed the server after getting the order from a guest for a bottle on wine different then that ordered by the host to advise the captain, matri-di or if they were busy before serving to always request the hosts permission to accept the guests order and serve the wine as the guest instructed.

Surprising enough many hosts told the server to tell the guest that if they wanted to order a special wine to advise the guest that he would be charged separately for this wine or any others he wanted to order plus a service charge. Others firmly said all wine will be ordered only by myself, very few said it was okay serve them whatever they want.

But always we quietly advised the host and followed their advice since they were paying the bill, it was their own guests and generally more important to the establishment they were regular, repeat customers. We realized thru experience that it was best for everyone to do things in this manner.

Many places are often stuck with the expense of serving a beverage that a guest ordered by the host ascertaining that you knew I was the host and that if I ordered anything I would have paid for it, since my guest decided to order differently for themselves without you asking me if it was all right, you should have charged them directly. Especially with after dinner beverages. It's become more complicated with Bottled waters and soft drinks being served more often, but again it managements responsibility to arrange everything to the hosts satisfaction.

Irwin

I don't say that I do. But don't let it get around that I don't.

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We have a nice tidy rule that saves everyone trouble, most senior person pays.

We had a slightly diffferent rule. The second most senior person pays and the most senior person signs off on the expense report.

Jim

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