Doneness and Internal Temperatures

[infernooo]

Hi everyone,

I have a quick question about cooking cuts of meat to certain internal temperatures. The question is more about cooking long and slow such as when doing barbecue or cooking a brisket long & slow.

I see a lot of talk of cooking it until it reaches an internal temperature (for example, 180-200F), but how does it work? do you take it away from the heat source as soon as it hits that temperature, or do you keep it at that temperature?

The reason I ask is that I thought that by getting the internal temp to a certain level (e.g. 180-200F), you are breaking down the tough parts of the meat (melting the gelatin/collagen etc). So wouldn't it make sense to hold the meat at this temperature for a certain amount of time? or should you just take it off as soon as it hits this magic number/range?

For example, lets say I cook a big tough piece of beef or pork slowly all day and I want it to be pullable (fork tender, melt in the mouth, whatever you want to call it ). Whether it be barbecue style cooking or in an oven (or even covered in foil in an oven), should I cook it very slowly (225-250F cooking temperature) until the termometer beeps at 180-200F internal? or once it hits that temperature, should I modify the heat to keep it at that temperature for a while to allow the magic to happen?

Anyways, thanks for any ideas/advice/clarifications anyone can give!

[Taboni]

I usually pull it off the grill/smoker at that point and wrap in foil to rest. Remember it is still cooking inside during the resting period.

[wesza]

I find that when preparing Meat that has a comparatively high fat content it will taste better, retain moisture and break down the collagen where cooked at a oven setting of anywhere from 210 degrees to 225 degrees with a pan containing water placed underneath to catch the drippings and provide enough moisture during cooking.

When raising to the internal temperatures of 180/200 degrees done at this low setting it being slow cooked provides adequate time for the braking down of the collagen.

If you cooking leaner meats or roasts that you want to serve rare when doing so allow the temperature to cook closer to your ideal finished temperature when roasting at the lower temperatures since after being removed from the oven and being allowed to set the juices your raised internal temperature will likely only increase about 5 degrees.

When your cooking at higher temperatures if you remove a roast from the heat and let it stand to set the temperature often increases 10/15 degrees.

If you prefer a more roasted appearance to your finished roast then sear it under the broiler just long enough to brown slightly on both sides before turning on the oven to roast without effecting the finish generally.

Slower roasting does a better job in enhancing the flavors and character of your roast plus there is less shrinkage with better yield.

Enjoy and post about how it worked when you roasted at low temperature the magic will happen.

Irwin

[jmcgrath]

When cooking tough cuts of meat like pork shoulder and brisket, internal temperature is only a guideline. The meat is done when it is done. Every piece of meat will be different. Allow for plus or minus an hour of your estimated cook time.

If you can easily twist a fork inserted into the brisket flat 90 degrees, it is done. Further cooking will dry it out. Wrap it in plastic wrap and foil, and place it in an insulated container for up to an hour.

When you can jiggle the shoulder bone in a pork shoulder, it is at the pull-able stage. that's around 200F. At 180F, it will be tender and slice-able. Cooking past the pull-able stage will start to turn the meat mushy. Once again, wrap and rest in an insulated container. I've held shoulders for up to four hours with no adverse effects. They retain heat remarkably well.

Jim

[infernooo]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone.

I think I am more interested in internal temperatures when cooking barbecue style (low & slow smoking, as in this thread) as opposed to roasting/baking, so does this change anything?

Thanks!

When cooking tough cuts of meat like pork shoulder and brisket, internal temperature is only a guideline. The meat is done when it is done. Every piece of meat will be different. Allow for plus or minus an hour of your estimated cook time.

If you can easily twist a fork inserted into the brisket flat 90 degrees, it is done. Further cooking will dry it out. Wrap it in plastic wrap and foil, and place it in an insulated container for up to an hour.

When you can jiggle the shoulder bone in a pork shoulder, it is at the pull-able stage. that's around 200F. At 180F, it will be tender and slice-able. Cooking past the pull-able stage will start to turn the meat mushy. Once again, wrap and rest in an insulated container. I've held shoulders for up to four hours with no adverse effects. They retain heat remarkably well.

Jim

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[jmcgrath]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone.

I think I am more interested in internal temperatures when cooking barbecue style (low & slow smoking, as in this thread) as opposed to roasting/baking, so does this change anything?

Thanks!

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Tough cuts of meat need to be cooked low and slow regardless of the heat source. Cooking a brisket or pork shoulder at a high temperature will not give enough time for the connective tissue to break down.

You can also do a wonderful prime rib in a barbecue pit at 350F.

Jim

[infernooo]

So how about all the pitmasters out there? I don't hear much about them using temperature probes (which I keep in the meat the whole time)... I know they have been doing it for years and would get a feel for it, but surely they must have some other indicator than by feel? (I'm not talking physical feel, more like knowing it's done without touching it).

[snowangel]

I don't know that I qualify as a pitmaster (OK, call me Kettle Queen), but I sort of go by feel and stick an old fashioned Taylor dial meat thermometer in when I think I'm getting close. But, I've done enough of them that I can tell by the bone wiggle, and sure enough, the trusty old Taylor (it was a wedding present and we'll celebrate a 25th this June) confirms what I know.

[russ parsons]

i don't know anyone who barbecues (as opposed to grills) or braises meat that uses a thermometer or cooks to temperature at all. it's done when it's done. thermometers are indispensible when you're trying to cook things the LEAST amount possible (steaks, poultry, etc). but they serve no purpose when you're trying to cook them the MOST.

[infernooo]

OK I understand the "it's done when it's done" train of thought, but when do you pull it off? how can you tell if you are just saying it's done when it's done?

Also, even though you are trying to cook them the "MOST", you don't want to get the internal temperature too high do you? because there is a stage past pulled which is called TOUGH is there not?

(This isn't an attack, I'm just trying to understand the concepts/methodology and thoughts behind them better).

Thanks!

i don't know anyone who barbecues (as opposed to grills) or braises meat that uses a thermometer or cooks to temperature at all. it's done when it's done. thermometers are indispensible when you're trying to cook things the LEAST amount possible (steaks, poultry, etc). but they serve no purpose when you're trying to cook them the MOST.

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[srhcb]

OK I understand the "it's done when it's done" train of thought, but when do you pull it off? how can you tell if you are just saying it's done when it's done?

The best natural cook I ever knew was my maternal grandmother. She came to this country, from Austria, when she was fifteen years old. She'd learned how to cook in a wood fueled stove without benefit of a thermostat, thermometer, or even a clock.

But whether she fried bacon or roasted a whole piglet, baked pogacha (a Serbian foccacia-type bread), or made her famous apple or cheese streudel, (from hand made phyllo), she just seemed to "know" exactly when things were perfectly done.

She died many years ago, before I started cooking, so I never had a chance to talk to her about it. My Mother, Sister, aunts, uncle and cousins all learned from her, and are excellent cooks in their own right. Once when we were talking about Grandma's recipes we came up with the theory that maybe she gauged cooking times using her sense of smell?

I know that even I seem to be able to tell when bread approaches it's ideal internal temperature by smell regardless of how long it's been in the oven, so maybe there is something to it?

SB (keeps oven and probe thermometers handy "just in case")

[jmcgrath]

So how about all the pitmasters out there? I don't hear much about them using temperature probes (which I keep in the meat the whole time)... I know they have been doing it for years and would get a feel for it, but surely they must have some other indicator than by feel? (I'm not talking physical feel, more like knowing it's done without touching it).

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Several people, including me, have already told you that you have to do it by feel. Temperature probes give an approximation, but only that. Why do you have a problem with a physical test?

Jim

[russ parsons]

one of the best cooks i know (at a michelin 3-star) never uses a thermometer, but always carries a metal skewer that she uses to poke the meat. when it feels right, it's done. her son, who went to culinary school, uses a thermometer--but not for braises, certainly.

[srhcb]

So how about all the pitmasters out there? I don't hear much about them using temperature probes (which I keep in the meat the whole time)... I know they have been doing it for years and would get a feel for it, but surely they must have some other indicator than by feel? (I'm not talking physical feel, more like knowing it's done without touching it).

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Several people, including me, have already told you that you have to do it by feel. Temperature probes give an approximation, but only that. Why do you have a problem with a physical test?

Jim

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I wonder if infernoo might have trouble reconciling the information provided here with their general concept of cooking?

I would suggest reading Alton Brown, Shirley Corriher, Howard Hillman or similar books on cooking theory.

SB (started late, and took a while to get the hang of it himself)

[russ parsons]

I wonder if infernoo might have trouble reconciling the information provided here with their general concept of cooking? 

I would suggest reading Alton Brown, Shirley Corriher, Howard Hillman or similar books on cooking theory.

SB (started late, and took a while to get the hang of it himself)

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or, ahem, "how to read a french fry," which has an absolutely brilliant (IMHO) chapter on meat cookery? how about a little love, fellas?

Edited April 7, 2006 by russ parsons (log)

[ray goud]

Or much better yet:

Acquire a copy of "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee. The latest revision is a treasure. It is chock-full of cooking facts, which are easy to find by its index. I cannot quote it here because that would be violating copyright laws. If you read and understand what he writes you will feel so informed about cooking. Best of all, it is the bible of the best chefs, and everything in it is true.

I don't know why everyone who posts on this site doesn't go to his book first when they need some technical info.

Ray

[infernooo]

So how about all the pitmasters out there? I don't hear much about them using temperature probes (which I keep in the meat the whole time)... I know they have been doing it for years and would get a feel for it, but surely they must have some other indicator than by feel? (I'm not talking physical feel, more like knowing it's done without touching it).

←

Several people, including me, have already told you that you have to do it by feel. Temperature probes give an approximation, but only that. Why do you have a problem with a physical test?

Jim

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I think we are getting our wires crossed, you are saying do it by feel, and I misunderstood that to mean by instinct, when in fact you are talking about physically feeling it... sorry I know what you mean now . I have no problems whatsoever poking & pulling it!

[infernooo]

Or much better yet:

Acquire a copy of "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee. The latest revision is a treasure. It is chock-full of cooking facts, which are easy to find by its index. I cannot quote it here because that would be violating copyright laws. If you read and understand what he writes you will feel so informed about cooking. Best of all, it is the bible of the best chefs, and everything in it is true.

I don't know why everyone who posts on this site doesn't go to his book first when they need some technical info.

Ray

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Maybe everyone doesn't know about the book... I certainly have never heard of it.

[daves]

Infernooo, some of us do use a thermometer. I figured out a long time ago that brisket or butt doesn't taste any better with temperature spikes or getting up in the middle of the night to refuel, so I now use a bbq guru (do an internet search to find the vendor). This is an electronic control that will control the temperature of the pit. An optional feature will also ramp down the temp of the pit to stabilize the meat at the ending temp.

I usually pull off brisket when it reaches 190 and wrap in foil for at least an hour before slicing. Butt comes off when it tops 200 and also into foil for at least an hour before pulling. I usually verify the temp in a few places with a thermopen.

In my experience, the collagen breakdown occurs at a lower temp -- I think around 160-170. If you are plotting the meat temp vs. time, you'll actually see a plateau at this temp for a few hours, then it starts climbing again. Assuming you are at low'n'slow temps, you'll be done with the collagen breakdown by the time the meat hits 190+. I used to have a nifty graph of this from one of my butts, but I can't find it now.

[infernooo]

Infernooo, some of us do use a    thermometer.  I figured out a long time ago that brisket or butt doesn't taste any better with temperature spikes or getting up in the middle of the night to refuel, so I now use a bbq guru (do an internet search to find the vendor).  This is an electronic control that will control the temperature of the pit.  An optional feature will also ramp down the temp of the pit to stabilize the meat at the ending temp.

I usually pull off brisket when it reaches 190 and wrap in foil for at least an hour before slicing.  Butt comes off when it tops 200 and also into foil for at least an hour before pulling.  I usually verify the temp in a few places with a thermopen.

In my experience, the collagen breakdown occurs at a lower temp -- I think around 160-170.  If you are plotting the meat temp vs. time, you'll actually see a plateau at this temp for a few hours, then it starts climbing again.  Assuming you are at low'n'slow temps, you'll be done with the collagen breakdown by the time the meat hits 190+.  I used to have a nifty graph of this from one of my butts, but I can't find it now.

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Thank you Daves, that is exactly the kind of reply I was looking for!

I will give it a go with this newfound knowledge and report on my experiences.

Thanks again.

[daves]

One more thing: I've noted that there is a slicing/shredding point somewhere between 190 and 200 or so. If you end the meat at 190, you'll be slicing it. If you end it 200+, you'll be shredding (even with a knife ).

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.