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Small Kitchen Renovation Appliance Choices?


azlee
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If I bite the bullet and pay for extra cabinets and go with the 24" fridge and 24" cooking setup, I could squeeze maybe another 9" of counter and storage space out of the kitchen but the extra cost may not be worth it in the end. So many choices...

you won't be sorry, glad to hear you will have more storage space, this topic was beginning to make me feel claustrophobic.

Edited by coquus (log)
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For extra space, also consider a movable butcher block type cart on wheels. You could store other things under it and move it out of the way when it's not needed.

Marlene

cookskorner

Practice. Do it over. Get it right.

Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.

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For extra space, also consider a movable butcher block type cart on wheels. You could store other things under it and move it out of the way when it's not needed.

Marlene, there will be two movable carts in the pantry closet. On will have the food processor and the other my kitchenaid mixer. there's no room to have anything else on the floor in the kitchen and only room for one person to work at a time in there. :-)

:wacko:

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Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

Well, any good kitchen designer or architect will have a wall-stretcher. :raz:

I don't have a Liebherr, but have installed many of them over the past 2-3 years. They are highly recommended by those that own them. I think their biggest downfall in North America is that few people know about them. LG also makes a couple 24" fridges, but they are "cheaper" in qaulity than the Liebherr IMO.

What size sink are you planning, or is this not negotiable. Kitchens this small benefit from a single bowl sink, which frees up more room on the countertop. This is the only downside to using a larger range ... less counterspace. Can you live with the Kuppersbusch combination (induction ROCKS btw!)? That would maximize the work space.

A.

Daddy-A, I'd love an induction cooktop but have never taken the time to see which of my masses of cookware would work with it. I have some glass cookware that I know will not work and I'd hate to give that up.

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I have an itty bitty kitchen like yours and we chose a smaller dishwasher (for 8 place settings instead of full size), full size cooktop and oven, and did not choose the big fridge - we went smaller which is standard in Europe.  The oven would still be considered a bit small but it does just fine.  Having all the burners for me was essential to being able to cook properly, as well as a good sized real oven where I can bake and roast normally.  We went with a contemporary vitroceramic top for both workspace and lack of gas connection, and I love it as much as I did gas (plus being able to mince and chop on one side while cooking on another is good in a small space).  The fridge could actually be smaller than it is, and we'd be happy. I live in the city and don't really stock up though.

i do like the idea of being able to use the ceramic cooktop as extra counter space.

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Azlee - if you are used to gas, and unused to electric ceramic, the answer *IS* induction when gas is impossible. (Ordinary ceramic is desperately unresponsive, and simmering on halogen... :rolleyes: )

For a confined space, you need the cooktop/hob as available prep space. Ceramic makes that possible. Touch controls rather than knobs makes it a much bigger, more useful space. And the low residual heat of induction makes the space available more of the time. It worked for me (and I wasn't quite so cramped!)

If you are using *glass* (rather than glass ceramic) things on gas, you'll be familiar with the flametamer concept. The point is that you can get something similar to allow you to use 'non-induction' cookware on induction. Not ideal, but possible.

Yes, European kitchens are almost all designed around a 600mm (near 24") module.

I'd suggest a tall unit in one corner with an oven above a fridge. Alongside that, I'd have the induction hob, ideally with freezer beneath.

On the opposite side, I'd have a 1 and 1/2 bowl sink in a full run of worktop, with shallow cupboards above. If you insist on a dishwasher, you could have one under there (I wouldn't)

Look to use every scrap of 3D space usefully. How about hanging the pans above the central aisle? Take the trouble to allow the lowest part of all the pans (not the hooks) to line up...

And have you considered that Ikea ought to have European-sized 600mm kitchen cabinets, at a saving that might easily allow you an induction hob and new Le Creuset pans?

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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I am fighting the same battle right now. My kitchen is 8 x 8 and somehow, I am going to fit a DCS or GE Monogram stove in there come hell or high water and I want a Miele dishwasher as well. The decorator is talking me out of a bigger fridge but has found a 24" fridge with a bottom draw freezer. Will post pictures when I see them.

Ya-Roo Yang aka "Bond Girl"

The Adventures of Bond Girl

I don't ask for much, but whatever you do give me, make it of the highest quality.

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I am fighting the same battle right now. My kitchen is 8 x 8 and somehow, I am going to fit a DCS or GE Monogram stove in there come hell or high water and I want a Miele dishwasher as well.  The decorator is talking me out of a bigger fridge but has found a 24" fridge with a bottom draw freezer.  Will post pictures when I see them.

Miele has an 18" wide dishwasher...

oops - you already knew that.

Edited by tsquare (log)
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Azlee - if you are used to gas, and unused to electric ceramic, the answer *IS* induction when gas is impossible. (Ordinary ceramic is desperately unresponsive, and simmering on halogen... :rolleyes: )

For a confined space, you need the cooktop/hob as available prep space. Ceramic makes that possible. Touch controls rather than knobs makes it a much bigger, more useful space. And the low residual heat of induction makes the space available more of the time. It worked for me (and I wasn't quite so cramped!)

If you are using *glass* (rather than glass ceramic) things on gas, you'll be familiar with the flametamer concept. The point is that you can get something similar to allow you to use 'non-induction' cookware on induction. Not ideal, but possible.

Yes, European kitchens are almost all designed around a 600mm (near 24") module.

I'd suggest a tall unit in one corner with an oven above a fridge. Alongside that, I'd have the induction hob, ideally with freezer beneath.

On the opposite side, I'd have a 1 and 1/2 bowl sink in a full run of worktop, with shallow cupboards above. If you insist on a dishwasher, you could have one under there (I wouldn't)

Look to use every scrap of 3D space usefully. How about hanging the pans above the central aisle? Take the trouble to allow the lowest part of all the pans (not the hooks) to line up...

And have you considered that Ikea ought to have European-sized 600mm kitchen cabinets, at a saving that might easily allow you an induction hob and new Le Creuset pans?

i like the idea of separate fridge and freezer but worry that it will send my budget sailing off the charts if i keep adding separate appliance components. still i will definitely consider induction. perhaps one induction component and one conventional ceramic glass cooktop component. or perhaps i should gather all my cookware and see what will work with induction. perhaps more of it is usuable than i think. at the moment i'll be using 60" of open shelving over the sink side of cabinets and an italian stainless grid with movable storage on an otherwise unusable brick wall to store spices, condiments and smaller containers of sugar, flour and rice for easy access. http://www.containerstore.com/browse/Produ...333&CATID=74107

I am excited about the flexibility of the grid system.

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I am fighting the same battle right now. My kitchen is 8 x 8 and somehow, I am going to fit a DCS or GE Monogram stove in there come hell or high water and I want a Miele dishwasher as well.  The decorator is talking me out of a bigger fridge but has found a 24" fridge with a bottom draw freezer.  Will post pictures when I see them.

i did leave myself the option of a dishwasher for the future. the connection is plumbed and capped. it would likely be an 18" miele.

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Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

Well, any good kitchen designer or architect will have a wall-stretcher. :raz:

I don't have a Liebherr, but have installed many of them over the past 2-3 years. They are highly recommended by those that own them. I think their biggest downfall in North America is that few people know about them. LG also makes a couple 24" fridges, but they are "cheaper" in qaulity than the Liebherr IMO.

What size sink are you planning, or is this not negotiable. Kitchens this small benefit from a single bowl sink, which frees up more room on the countertop. This is the only downside to using a larger range ... less counterspace. Can you live with the Kuppersbusch combination (induction ROCKS btw!)? That would maximize the work space.

A.

Daddy-A,

Just curious are there any 24" or 27" induction cooktops that you would recommend? Which cooktop do you have? Can you use a griddle on an induction top (like maybe a Le Crueset Griddle)? Thanks

Azlee

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Can you use a griddle on an induction top (like maybe a Le Crueset Griddle)?

Oh, yessss! :biggrin:

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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Here's one I need advice on: I am used to cooking with a open flame (ie gas stove top) but one of my friends suggest that I should go with one of those heated surface cooktops used in professional kitchens. he thinks it's cleaner. I always think they make me nervous as I would probably forget where the heat source are and burn myself. Anyone here have any thoughts?

Ya-Roo Yang aka "Bond Girl"

The Adventures of Bond Girl

I don't ask for much, but whatever you do give me, make it of the highest quality.

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I also have a small kitchen, 5.5' X 10.5 feet. I'm going with the 10 cf. euro style LG fridge. Looked at the Liebherr but it's so tall, I don't want to use a step stool to get to the top shelf. It's also beautiful, and less than 1/3 of the price. I think $2,500 for a 24" fridge is insanely expensive too! The LG is large enough for me. I'm in Manhattan, and have markets all over. I'm just one person and don't need a larger fridge really, and I love the freezer drawers. I reconfigured my kitchen so I would have more counter space to cook instead of a larger fridge. If I don't have the room to cook, there's not going to be much in the fridge anyway...LOL! I'm using an 18" D/W mostly because I want to be able to run it more frequently, and the 24" takes too long to fill up. I'm also using a 30" range, OTR micro and whatever sink will fit in a 24" cabinet.

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I also have a small kitchen, 5.5' X 10.5 feet. I'm going with the 10 cf. euro style LG fridge. Looked at the Liebherr but it's so tall, I don't want to use a step stool to get to the top shelf. It's also beautiful, and less than 1/3 of the price. I think $2,500 for a 24" fridge is insanely expensive too! The LG is large enough for me. I'm in Manhattan, and have markets all over. I'm just one person and don't need a larger fridge really, and I love the freezer drawers. I reconfigured my kitchen so I would have more counter space to cook instead of a larger fridge. If I don't have the room to cook, there's not going to be much in the fridge anyway...LOL!  I'm using an 18" D/W mostly because I want to be able to run it more frequently, and the 24" takes too long to fill up. I'm also using a 30" range, OTR micro and whatever sink will fit in a 24" cabinet.

Blondelle,

That sounds very much like my planned set-up, except that I can't decide on the fridge. I know that $2,500 is alot for a fridge, but I live in a neighborhood where many would solve a similar space problem with a subzero and that is an expense ( over $5k w/ ss panel) that I personally cannot justify or afford. I guess alot of sticker shock comes with a small kitchen renovation.

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Azlee, larger apartments in my building are over 1,000,000 with several costing many times that. My studio is worth about $400,000 and I'm using the LG. The LG is a beautiful fridge with many amenities and features. It's not that large but it's built well and finished nicely. My apartment is a studio, and there are much less expensive fridges I can place there. To me this is an mid to upper end solution. I really don't think it's needed to place such an expensive fridge there if you're just doing it for resale. I don't think it's expected in such a small kitchen. My other appliances are also going to be midrange such as an Amana range and GE Monogram D/W.

I also have a small kitchen, 5.5' X 10.5 feet. I'm going with the 10 cf. euro style LG fridge. Looked at the Liebherr but it's so tall, I don't want to use a step stool to get to the top shelf. It's also beautiful, and less than 1/3 of the price. I think $2,500 for a 24" fridge is insanely expensive too! The LG is large enough for me. I'm in Manhattan, and have markets all over. I'm just one person and don't need a larger fridge really, and I love the freezer drawers. I reconfigured my kitchen so I would have more counter space to cook instead of a larger fridge. If I don't have the room to cook, there's not going to be much in the fridge anyway...LOL!  I'm using an 18" D/W mostly because I want to be able to run it more frequently, and the 24" takes too long to fill up. I'm also using a 30" range, OTR micro and whatever sink will fit in a 24" cabinet.

Blondelle,

That sounds very much like my planned set-up, except that I can't decide on the fridge. I know that $2,500 is alot for a fridge, but I live in a neighborhood where many would solve a similar space problem with a subzero and that is an expense ( over $5k w/ ss panel) that I personally cannot justify or afford. I guess alot of sticker shock comes with a small kitchen renovation.

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Someone told me that most fridges (the exception being sub-zero) are made either by Kenmore or GE for other brands anyway, but that might be an urban legend.

Do anyone here have any advice on ranges? One of my friends can get a really good break with Bosch, but I've never used them. Jason Perlow recommends that I go with either a 30 inch DCS or GE Monogram (because they are made by DCS for GE), while my chef friends are recommending the 30 inch wolf instead. Does anyone here has any experience with any one of them?

Dishwasher will probably be a one drawer Fisher Playkel as it needs tp fit under the sink.

Ya-Roo Yang aka "Bond Girl"

The Adventures of Bond Girl

I don't ask for much, but whatever you do give me, make it of the highest quality.

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Someone told me that most fridges (the exception being sub-zero) are made either by Kenmore or GE for other brands anyway, but that might be an urban legend.

Do anyone here have any advice on ranges?  One of my friends can get a really good break with Bosch, but I've never used them.  Jason Perlow recommends that I go with either a 30 inch DCS or GE Monogram (because they are made by DCS for GE), while my chef friends are recommending the 30 inch wolf instead.  Does anyone here has any experience with any one of them?

Dishwasher will probably be a one drawer Fisher Playkel as it needs tp fit under the sink.

I bought a Kitchenaid glass ceramic because it was on sale, it had a convection oven, and had this computer type thing on the controls (i'm a guy in case you didn't guess), let me tell you for the price, great, but it has it's drawbacks. You can't really use it as extra space for fear of dropping something and cracking the cooktop. It has knobs on the front anyway, instead of on the backsplash, which would get hit with body parts and turn on, perhaps under your plastic cutting board. The cooktop is white so is super high maintainence (glass ceramic is super high maintainence as it stands so super super high, am I spelling maintainence right?). Also you can't uses copper on it, and because mine is white, Kitchenaid? you're not supposed to use aluminum. I don't know how long I'll be here, so I don't know how healthy speculating is, but I would definately like to try induction (the intro Kenmore (Sears) is only 1500) since I cook alot with carbon steel pans anyhow. Ideally, I would like a induction top with a gas stove, but since nobody makes them, yet hint, hint, i guess that's out. Think of the energy and time savings there, that would be phenomenal.

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Azlee I don't want to throw another wrench in the works, but if you're renovating with an eye towards resale at all, you have to also consider this. Someone who loves to cook, and who would appreciate all your very high end appliances will also want a much larger kitchen. It's like putting all the very expensive high end Lexus extras into a VW. Your kitchen will be exquisite with all these very high end fittings but will the loss of ease of cooking in such a small space justify their cost? Just something to consider!

I also have a small kitchen, 5.5' X 10.5 feet. I'm going with the 10 cf. euro style LG fridge. Looked at the Liebherr but it's so tall, I don't want to use a step stool to get to the top shelf. It's also beautiful, and less than 1/3 of the price. I think $2,500 for a 24" fridge is insanely expensive too! The LG is large enough for me. I'm in Manhattan, and have markets all over. I'm just one person and don't need a larger fridge really, and I love the freezer drawers. I reconfigured my kitchen so I would have more counter space to cook instead of a larger fridge. If I don't have the room to cook, there's not going to be much in the fridge anyway...LOL!  I'm using an 18" D/W mostly because I want to be able to run it more frequently, and the 24" takes too long to fill up. I'm also using a 30" range, OTR micro and whatever sink will fit in a 24" cabinet.

Blondelle,

That sounds very much like my planned set-up, except that I can't decide on the fridge. I know that $2,500 is alot for a fridge, but I live in a neighborhood where many would solve a similar space problem with a subzero and that is an expense ( over $5k w/ ss panel) that I personally cannot justify or afford. I guess alot of sticker shock comes with a small kitchen renovation.

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Azlee I don't want to throw another wrench in the works, but if you're renovating with an eye towards resale at all, you have to also consider this. Someone who loves to cook, and who would appreciate all your very high end appliances will also want a much larger kitchen. It's like putting all the very expensive high end Lexus extras into a VW. Your kitchen will be exquisite with all these very high end fittings but will the loss of ease of cooking in such a small space justify their cost? Just something to consider!
I also have a small kitchen, 5.5' X 10.5 feet. I'm going with the 10 cf. euro style LG fridge. Looked at the Liebherr but it's so tall, I don't want to use a step stool to get to the top shelf. It's also beautiful, and less than 1/3 of the price. I think $2,500 for a 24" fridge is insanely expensive too! The LG is large enough for me. I'm in Manhattan, and have markets all over. I'm just one person and don't need a larger fridge really, and I love the freezer drawers. I reconfigured my kitchen so I would have more counter space to cook instead of a larger fridge. If I don't have the room to cook, there's not going to be much in the fridge anyway...LOL!  I'm using an 18" D/W mostly because I want to be able to run it more frequently, and the 24" takes too long to fill up. I'm also using a 30" range, OTR micro and whatever sink will fit in a 24" cabinet.

Blondelle,

That sounds very much like my planned set-up, except that I can't decide on the fridge. I know that $2,500 is alot for a fridge, but I live in a neighborhood where many would solve a similar space problem with a subzero and that is an expense ( over $5k w/ ss panel) that I personally cannot justify or afford. I guess alot of sticker shock comes with a small kitchen renovation.

This is the same conversation I am having with my architect. She thinks I am crazy to want to put a high end range in my 8x8 kitchen. But, here's the thing: when I bought my apartment 8 years ago, I thought I'd be outta there in 3 years. Now 8 years later, I'm still there. I guess, may be one should just get what makes one happy and worry about re-sale when it happens.

Ya-Roo Yang aka "Bond Girl"

The Adventures of Bond Girl

I don't ask for much, but whatever you do give me, make it of the highest quality.

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Azlee I don't want to throw another wrench in the works, but if you're renovating with an eye towards resale at all, you have to also consider this. Someone who loves to cook, and who would appreciate all your very high end appliances will also want a much larger kitchen. It's like putting all the very expensive high end Lexus extras into a VW. Your kitchen will be exquisite with all these very high end fittings but will the loss of ease of cooking in such a small space justify their cost? Just something to consider!
I also have a small kitchen, 5.5' X 10.5 feet. I'm going with the 10 cf. euro style LG fridge. Looked at the Liebherr but it's so tall, I don't want to use a step stool to get to the top shelf. It's also beautiful, and less than 1/3 of the price. I think $2,500 for a 24" fridge is insanely expensive too! The LG is large enough for me. I'm in Manhattan, and have markets all over. I'm just one person and don't need a larger fridge really, and I love the freezer drawers. I reconfigured my kitchen so I would have more counter space to cook instead of a larger fridge. If I don't have the room to cook, there's not going to be much in the fridge anyway...LOL!  I'm using an 18" D/W mostly because I want to be able to run it more frequently, and the 24" takes too long to fill up. I'm also using a 30" range, OTR micro and whatever sink will fit in a 24" cabinet.

Blondelle,

That sounds very much like my planned set-up, except that I can't decide on the fridge. I know that $2,500 is alot for a fridge, but I live in a neighborhood where many would solve a similar space problem with a subzero and that is an expense ( over $5k w/ ss panel) that I personally cannot justify or afford. I guess alot of sticker shock comes with a small kitchen renovation.

i'm less concerned with resale than with having what i want in the kitchen. i personally don't care much for open kitchens and so i want to find as much usable space as possible in my small space and make it nice because i intend to enjoy it while i'm here. as far as resale, it should show well when the time comes, but if someone wanted to rearrange things or take a wall down they could certainly make good use of what i leave behind. the interesting thing is that i have an otherwise rather roomy 2 bedroom apartment. the designing architect of the building didn't think much about cooking, so he put all the space into the other rooms.

Edited by azlee (log)
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That's a great attitude, you have to live there so you should make it suitable for living first and foremost. I always think people are crazy that try to keep everything pristine for some future buyer, or, conversly won't spend the money to make a place comfortable enough to be livable.

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That's a great attitude, you have to live there so you should make it suitable for living first and foremost.  I always think people are crazy that try to keep everything pristine for some future buyer, or, conversly won't spend the money to make a place comfortable enough to be livable.

Thanks. I'm definitely willing to spend on this project but I'd like to spend wisely for great tools and space that I will enjoy using. The hardest choice seems to be cold storage and cooking appliances.

Also hoping that the price of stainless starts to go down or at least stabilize because I'd really love to use a stainless countertop with an integrated sink. Does anyone know of great stainless countertop fabricators in the five boroughs?

:biggrin:

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