The state of Paris wine lists

[Margaret Pilgrim]

One mid-range restaurant that continues to get good marks for its list is an old favorite of ours:

Le Villaret 19, rue Ternaux Paris 11 Telephone: 01 43 57 75 56 and 01 43 57 89 76. Various recent diners have had differing thoughts on the food, which I have always thought not at all bad, but just about universal reports on the wine list have been excellent.

[Champagne Sadie]

mmmm...I know it's bit selfish, but I'm reluctant to share some of my "best lists". They might run out of my favourite wines if I do.

I agree though, Le Villaret has a superb list - food can be very hit and miss though.

[AlexBernardo]

Fish, without doubt, has one of the best and most extensive wine lists of any bistros in Paris. The main reason is that it's co-owned by the patron of La Derniere Goute. We're not talking of expensive classed growths here but small-production, affordable wines from the Loire, Alsace, Languedoc, Corsica, Jura, and Southwest. It's also great you can purchase wines from the nearby wine store and bring it to the bistro. Fish should win an award!

I'm also impressed by the short but tight selection at Mon Vieil Ami. The whites are dominated by fine Alsatians. I enjoy the Riesling from Dirler very much, a success with the house terrine. On the reds, you can't go wrong with Alphose Mellot's Anjou rouge, so heavenly with the cochon.

L'Ourcine's list is somewhat pathetic (sorry Emily). The whites should be revamped. Yet, one red stands out, especially when drank with the roast pintade with foie: the '04 Saumur-Champigny from Thierry Chancelle. Don't succumb to the temptation of ordering the '03 La Vieille Julienne, a great Chateauneuf but years from being ready.

[winemike]

Fish, without doubt, has one of the best and most extensive wine lists of any bistros in Paris. The main reason is that it's co-owned by the patron of La Derniere Goute. We're not talking of expensive classed growths here but small-production, affordable wines from the Loire, Alsace, Languedoc, Corsica, Jura, and Southwest. It's also great you can purchase wines from the nearby wine store and bring it to the bistro. Fish should win an award!

HA!! Here is the link!!

I was at La Derniere Goutte (for the first and last time) a couple of weeks ago and the shopkeeper heavily insisted that I must eat at "Fish", telling me it serves *magnificent* food, etc, etc... They had an obvious interest in the restaurant but as they did not say which one I concluded to "helping friends". Now I see.... They're co-owning it!!....

Anyway, I was unimpressed by the shop. I expected an extensive selection of affordable wines from small producers from Burgundy, Languedoc, etc .. as you mention. Well.... Nice Champagne (though short) selection but certainly not great prices (though standard for Paris, I guess). Mainly known names (does not mean prestigious) for Burgundy, known names from the Languedoc and Alsace (though the selection is not bad it's nowhere near exceptional nor extensive and no bargains to be found).

Oh, by the way, there was a tasting organised there and I was appalled by the lack of knowledge about the wines served of the person from the shop...

Edited March 29, 2006 by winemike (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Mike, I am surprised and saddened by your experience at LDG. Yes, we are usually asked if we know about "Fish", but there has never been any hiding the fact that they are co-owned. I am also startled at your receiving less than superior attention and information from the staff. Hervé, particularly, has been extraordinarily instructive on all things regarding the biodynamic movement, and is always willing to spend time trying to satisfy any particularly quirky request we might have. The attention and dialogue during a recent tasting were more than we demanded or expected. We have not found the wines that they have suggested unreasonably priced compared to other wine shops we frequent. I should add that we always approach this kind of shopping by admitting our ignorance and indicating that we would be grateful for any instruction and guidance.

I'm sorry your visit was so unsatisfactory for you. It makes me wonder if all of the regular staff been away with the flu.

[winemike]

Margaret,

Herve was definitely not there as there was only one woman that afternoon.

The prices were not outrageous, but they were not great. Definitely above what I'd be ready to pay (and have actually paid for - elsewhere). This applies particularly to the Champagne and Burgundy selection.

That same afternoon, I visited Caves Auge and not only was the staff way more knowledgeable but the prices were alright and the selection... well, you simply can't compare. And I'm not talking about prestigious or expensive bottles.

I have to say I was disappointed because I had heard good things about LDG. Maybe I was expecting too much. But maybe that's just me...

[pierre45]

Mike, I am surprised and saddened by your experience at LDG.  Yes, we are usually asked if we know about "Fish", but there has never been any hiding the fact that they are co-owned.  I am also startled at your receiving less than superior attention and information from the staff.  Hervé, particularly, has been extraordinarily instructive on all things regarding the biodynamic movement, and is always willing to spend time trying to satisfy any particularly quirky request we might have.  The attention and dialogue during a recent tasting were more than we demanded or expected.  We have not found the wines that they have suggested unreasonably priced compared to other wine shops we frequent.  I should add that we always approach this kind of shopping by admitting our ignorance and indicating that we would be grateful for any instruction and guidance.

I'm sorry your visit was so unsatisfactory for you.  It makes me wonder if all of the regular staff been away with the flu.

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My experience with la derniere goute and fish is similar to Mike's.

I have been to ldg a few times and at least 6 times to fish ,mostly on sundays,since th're one of the few open on sundays in the 6th.

The food at fish is quite good and wine selection decent ,specially from languedoc.

But by no means extensive or very reasonable.

However whenever i went to LDG and i spoke french they were not gracious or enthusiastic, also whenever a tourist walked in they greeted them warmly ,saying they will be back if I have any questions.I noticed that they spend lots of time with them beeing helpful,etc . I think they prefer english speaking clientele ,specially the ones that they could influence.Their selection is standard rhone and languedoc

and prices are regular prices .Its a good store for non french speaking people.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Pierre, in retrospect, I can appreciate your comments. We have never visited Fish, simply because it never appealed to us. re the reception at LdG, I can see the woman, who I believe has been there since the beginning, leaving you to your own devises when a tourist walked in. As predominately English speakers, we usually have to beat her off with a club so that we can brouse and read labels without interference, so I am usually delighted to share the salesroom with other customers. To be fare, the woman has been of good help to us in the past, but I do prefer Hervè's low key approach and sly humor.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)

[Carlsbad]

I've never been there, nor to Fish, although I tried one time, but they had stopped serving. We went across the street to Cosi, which I think is great. The ownership is pretty well known. It's a wine store in Paris owned by an American. Is it a surprise they cater to English speakers? If they aren't hiking the prices, who cares?

[winemike]

The ownership is pretty well known.  It's a wine store in Paris owned by an American.  Is it a surprise they cater to English speakers?  If they aren't hiking the prices, who cares?

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Carlsbad, taking you're talking about LDG, I don't care that it's owned by an american, a chinese or whatever. I don't care neither that they cater for English speakers. The pricing policy is theirs, I have the choice not to buy (!!)...

What I was trying to say is that this shop is overhyped. It's not a special wine shop. It does not have an extensive nor an overly interesting selection. It's just a regular shop. The american link is irrelevant.

Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack.

About winelists in Paris, I think my favourite is at Lavinia. For lunch. Basically, it's the whole shop. You buy at shop price and drink at the restaurant upstairs. No corkage. Food is alright. Some dishes are even great.... The pricing of the wines is not extraordinary (even expensive) for a wine shop but for a restaurant....

[Margaret Pilgrim]

What I was trying to say is that this shop is overhyped. It's not a special wine shop. It does not have an extensive nor an overly interesting selection. It's just a regular shop.

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Let me agree with you for the most part. Cave Auge is many orders of magnitude better in terms of breadth of cellar and dedication to extraordinary wine and will serve the most discriminating wine lover. LdG is, in comparison, a closet. It is a convenient shop for many of us who stay in that area, has a staff that some of us enjoy, is popular with Anglo-speakers and has been widely hyped by food writers such as Patricia Wells and many food magazines. It serves a niche but is certainly not the shop for those highly informed and experienced in French wine.

[phrederic]

Hi there:

I just posted an update in reply to Laidback on the midrange restaurants thread, which could have been posted here. More restaurant suggestions but for me that's always a wine subject. I'm trying to put the link below, but am unsure it'll work.

I'm trying to avoid the Fish and LDG discussion as I don't like 'em but still think most people will. And probably should. So I put the cross-post as my preliminary contribution to this discussion here.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...0entry1164584

Tchin Tchin!

[Felice]

Can anyone comment on the wine list at Abadache? La Cerisaie?

I'd like to find a place for Monday night with an interesting wine list, but a lot of places are closed.

[paga]

Can anyone comment on the wine list at Abadache?  La Cerisaie? 

I'd like to find a place for Monday night with an interesting wine list, but a lot of places are closed.

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Neither is incredible but Cerisaie's list's regionality (if there is such a term) is more interesting.

[Felice]

Any thoughts on wine list at Chez Les Anges? I think they are open as well.

[John Talbott]

Any thoughts on wine list at Chez Les Anges?  I think they are open as well.

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I agree with Paga. As to Chez Les Anges, it's OK but not regionally intereting like Cerisaie

[Felice]

It serves a niche but is certainly not the shop for those highly informed and experienced in French wine.

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I didn’t really want to chime in on the Dernière Goutte discussion at first because a) I’m completely biased since I know the owner well and b) because even though I love La Dernière Goutte and have always found it to be a wonderful shop, I am by no means an expert and my opinion is formed a lot by what I’ve read.

However I did a little searching and did want to add for what it’s worth, that it’s not just American guidebooks that sing its praises. Every French guide I have--and I have a lot-- mentions LDG or Fish for their wines. “Paris en Bouteilles” says “Arrêt obligatoire !…pour sa collection de vins très large et d’un rare à-propos…” So it’s not just the Patricia Wells of this world who are writing it up.

I decided to ask two friends, both whose knowledge of wine far exceeds my own, one in the wine business here in France for many years and another who has quiet an impressive collection, what they thought of La Dernière Goutte, since I know they have been but have no affiliation or bias towards the shop what so ever. Both had very positive comments and didn’t feel that it was “just an ordinary shop”. They both thought it had an excellent selection of wine that reflect the owners’ taste. The former mentioned that although they might not have an overly large selection of winemakers, they normally have each cuvée from a particular winemaker, something he said you don’t find in other shops.

I think to compare LDG to Augé or Lavinia is a bit unfair. As Margaret mentioned, LDG is a tiny shop. They specialize in wines from Roussillon and Languedoc, and don’t pretend to have a large selection of Burgundies or Bordeaux. Augé, which I love, specializes in vins naturels and Lavinia is enormous and therefore can stock just about every wine imaginable at the best price possible, something a tiny shop just can’t do. It's like comparing Amazon.com to your local bookstore.

I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind and am not trying to argue that it is the best shop in Paris either. I just didn’t want people not familiar with the shop reading this thread to come away thinking it was just a shop for tourists with limited wine knowledge, something I feel would be unfair and untrue.

[Laidback]

It serves a niche but is certainly not the shop for those highly informed and experienced in French wine.

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I didn’t really want to chime in on the Dernière Goutte discussion at first because a) I’m completely biased since I know the owner well and b) because even though I love La Dernière Goutte and have always found it to be a wonderful shop, I am by no means an expert and my opinion is formed a lot by what I’ve read.

However I did a little searching and did want to add for what it’s worth, that it’s not just American guidebooks that sing its praises. Every French guide I have--and I have a lot-- mentions LDG or Fish for their wines. “Paris en Bouteilles” says “Arrêt obligatoire !…pour sa collection de vins très large et d’un rare à-propos…” So it’s not just the Patricia Wells of this world who are writing it up.

I decided to ask two friends, both whose knowledge of wine far exceeds my own, one in the wine business here in France for many years and another who has quiet an impressive collection, what they thought of La Dernière Goutte, since I know they have been but have no affiliation or bias towards the shop what so ever. Both had very positive comments and didn’t feel that it was “just an ordinary shop”. They both thought it had an excellent selection of wine that reflect the owners’ taste. The former mentioned that although they might not have an overly large selection of winemakers, they normally have each cuvée from a particular winemaker, something he said you don’t find in other shops.

I think to compare LDG to Augé or Lavinia is a bit unfair. As Margaret mentioned, LDG is a tiny shop. They specialize in wines from Roussillon and Languedoc, and don’t pretend to have a large selection of Burgundies or Bordeaux. Augé, which I love, specializes in vins naturels and Lavinia is enormous and therefore can stock just about every wine imaginable at the best price possible, something a tiny shop just can’t do. It's like comparing Amazon.com to your local bookstore.

I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind and am not trying to argue that it is the best shop in Paris either. I just didn’t want people not familiar with the shop reading this thread to come away thinking it was just a shop for tourists with limited wine knowledge, something I feel would be unfair and untrue.

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Well stated Felice...maybe because I agree I have only visited LDG 3 times and then only because I had heard they were knowledgeable about the Languedoc/Roussillon area and in my opinion some of the best rapport qualité/prix in wines from France come from that area.

[winemike]

We have different expectations from wine shops.

Saying LDG is for tourists and that they don't know about wine is certainly pushing it.

I just related my only (and bad) experience. The lack of knowledge about the wine sold in the shop was problematic for me (it was about Burgundy). Leave alone the wine tasting... The series of wine was not even served in the right order...

Little correction on your post, Felice: Lavinia does by no means offer wines at the best possible price. In fact, it's a quite expensive shop... but a few bargains can be found.

I like browsing in this shop though.

I must underline here that I very rarely buy French wine from shops (the odd bottle, or something I wanted to try). I almost exclusively buy directly from producers (and futures for Bordeaux). And while I understand a shopkeeper won't know as much about a wine as the one who made it, I still expect they tasted the wine....

Anyway, I do not want to sound too negative. The shop has its aficionados. I am not amongst them, that's all...

[Le Zouave]

Have some of you tried the Crémerie, rue des Quatre Vents in the 6th (close to Camdeborde's bistrot)? It's a tiny (and beautifull) cave a vins, with great italian charcuteries. Most of their wines are unsulphered. (And as far as LDG is concerned, it's a place that I like very much, although it's nothing more than a good neighborhood caviste: has anyone tried their cotes de provence, chateau de Roquefort?)

[Le Zouave]

I'd also like to add that the Villaret's list is indeed great (I had a 2000 vin de pays d'oc Les Creisses from the domaine Chesnelong, the other day, that was fantastic and a huge bargain at something like 25€), that Les Enfants Rouges in the 3rd has some great stuff as well (and very fairly priced), that le Verre Volé in the 10th is "the" place to discover some modern (and yes, mostly unsulphered, natural, biodynamic, you name it) winemakers, and that the new Zingots in the 10th has a very cool wine list. Gee, it's 12:42PM in Paris, and I'd be happy to open a bottle of white!