Warm foams

[A Patric]

Ok, so I tried the xanthan. It is very cool stuff btw. I couldn't believe how much 1 g thickened 300 g of water. Still, it wasn't thick enough, so I added another gram. It foamed, but not quite as much as I wanted. I added 1 T of vegetable oil, and the bubbles were even finer, but it still wasn't perfect. I'll try 3 g tomorrow.

In the process of doing this, though, I started to wonder if my wording is causing confusion. This definitely created a foam, and one that seems to be relatively stable. But the foam was not the type that I am looking for. I want something the texture of whipped cream, whites beaten stiff, or chocolate mousse.

Perhaps I should say that I am looking for a way to make a water-based, stable mousse, that I can create with my N2O canister. I want something that can stand on its own and yet still have a soft texture. I don't want to have to contain the foam in a small bowl to keep it from spreading.

I think for such a foam, the bubbles must be much smaller than what I'm getting right now. I'll test with a larger amount of xanhan, but if my further explanation helps any, I'm up for additional suggestions.

Best,

Alan

[Kerry Beal]

I know it's not meat based - but there is a recipe from Dessert Fourplay for Tangerine Crispies -

125 grams sugar

6 grams methocellulose

1 gram xantham gum

1 gram citric acid

2 cups tangerine juice

Mix dry ingredients. Add to juice a tiny bit at a time in mixing mixer. Beat until expands about 8 times. Makes a foam similar I think to what you are looking for. This is then dehydrated to make the crispie part.

The proportions would likely work - I suspect the sugar isn't a necessary part, nor the citric acid.

Chef Rubber carries methocellulose for a not outrageous price.

[Broken English]

Have you tried thickening the liquid with Xanthan to help it hold while it sets?

I haven't tried Xanthan, as I don't have any. It looked the most promising out of the possibilities beyond agar, so I was kind of hoping to hear from someone that it would definitely work before purchasing some. In the Khymos guide, I don't think that any of the Xanthan recipes use an N2O canister.

Have you tried this, or has anyone else?

Best,

Alan

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant using Xanthan in conjunction with the Agar to help stabilise the foam. I haven't tried it, but I would think it would assist in the foam holding for longer.

[Broken English]

Ok, so I tried the xanthan. It is very cool stuff btw. I couldn't believe how much 1 g thickened 300 g of water. Still, it wasn't thick enough, so I added another gram. It foamed, but not quite as much as I wanted. I added 1 T of vegetable oil, and the bubbles were even finer, but it still wasn't perfect. I'll try 3 g tomorrow.

In the process of doing this, though, I started to wonder if my wording is causing confusion. This definitely created a foam, and one that seems to be relatively stable. But the foam was not the type that I am looking for. I want something the texture of whipped cream, whites beaten stiff, or chocolate mousse.

Perhaps I should say that I am looking for a way to make a water-based, stable mousse, that I can create with my N2O canister. I want something that can stand on its own and yet still have a soft texture. I don't want to have to contain the foam in a small bowl to keep it from spreading.

I think for such a foam, the bubbles must be much smaller than what I'm getting right now. I'll test with a larger amount of xanhan, but if my further explanation helps any, I'm up for additional suggestions.

Best,

Alan

So you don't want it to set as a foam which you can then reheat and serve warm? That's what I assumed from reading the first post.

If not, I'd just use gelatine, the warm foams I've made using it are very stable and can be very stiff yet soft, depending on the amount of gelatine and the N2O charge.

[A Patric]

So you don't want it to set as a foam which you can then reheat and serve warm? That's what I assumed from reading the first post.

If not, I'd just use gelatine, the warm foams I've made using it are very stable and can be very stiff yet soft, depending on the amount of gelatine and the N2O charge.

Sorry for any confusion. I'll try to be as clear as possible here:

I want to take pure, clarified meat juice and mix one, or a combination of, hydrocolloids into it to create a liquid/gel that when heated and put in my N20 canister will create a nice, stable, warm mousse.

What is key is that regardless of how the mixture is prepared (heating/cooling/mixing, etc) it either must be able to be turned into a mousse while it is still in a warm state, or I must be able to reheat the mixture and then turn it into a mousse in a warm state.

BTW, I did order some methyl cellulose (high viscosity and low viscosity types) and carrageenan yesterday. I am going to try and find konjac locally. I think that with all of these ingredients I'll be able to figure something out.

Best,

Alan

[A Patric]

I found konjac powder and noodles locally. It is also very interesting stuff. It makes a thermo-irreversible gel, and holds together quite well. I can see why one of the recipes for a hot mousse in the Khymos book called for it. On the other hand, I can imagine it leading to an odd mouthfeel if too much is used. I'm looking for creamy, and preferably melting, like the texture of a chocolate mousse would be.

In other news, I experimented with agar again, this time adding some xanthan to see if I could get better results. I could. The bubbles were as fine as they had ever been, but the foam still was not stiff enough to stand on its own. I may be able to find something workable, but for now, I think I'll just wait for the other ingreients to arrive. They may end up being just what I need, especially the methyl cellulose, which sounds very promising, or perhaps the carrageenan.

At an rate, I'll keep everyone posted.

Best,

Alan

[Msk]

So you don't want it to set as a foam which you can then reheat and serve warm? That's what I assumed from reading the first post.

If not, I'd just use gelatine, the warm foams I've made using it are very stable and can be very stiff yet soft, depending on the amount of gelatine and the N2O charge.

Sorry for any confusion. I'll try to be as clear as possible here:

I want to take pure, clarified meat juice and mix one, or a combination of, hydrocolloids into it to create a liquid/gel that when heated and put in my N20 canister will create a nice, stable, warm mousse.

What is key is that regardless of how the mixture is prepared (heating/cooling/mixing, etc) it either must be able to be turned into a mousse while it is still in a warm state, or I must be able to reheat the mixture and then turn it into a mousse in a warm state.

BTW, I did order some methyl cellulose (high viscosity and low viscosity types) and carrageenan yesterday. I am going to try and find konjac locally. I think that with all of these ingredients I'll be able to figure something out.

Best,

Alan

Alan, I can give you another idea, though I haven't done this with anything other than milk-based liquids (albeit skim milk)

Liquid (I used skim milk)

Guar .4%

Iota .5%

Kappa .1%

Bring skim milk to a boil

put in vita mix, turn on until vortex forms

add Hyrocolloids

blend for 30 secs to 1 minute to hydrate

Pour into a stand mixer with whisk attachment hot

whisk on high until stiff peaks (it takes awhile)

Some Thoughs

The texture is somewhere between a meringue and whipped cream

My worry about using non-milk based products is iota likes calcium

If this is the texture you are after I would try and apply this to methocel since that will give you structure when hot.

iota is thermoreversible, so you lose the structure when heated

Mike

[A Patric]

Hi Mike,

I'll try it! I should be receiving iota and kappa carrageenan, as well as two different viscosities of methyl cellulose to play around with. I have guar gum already, so I should be able to figure something out. I'll keep the info about calcium in mind.

It might be a week or so, as I have a business trip coming up, but I'll definitely post my results!

Best,

Alan

[A Patric]

I know it's not meat based - but there is a recipe from Dessert Fourplay for Tangerine Crispies -

125 grams sugar

6 grams methocellulose

1 gram xantham gum

1 gram citric acid

2 cups tangerine juice

Mix dry ingredients. Add to juice a tiny bit at a time in mixing mixer. Beat until expands about 8 times. Makes a foam similar I think to what you are looking for. This is then dehydrated to make the crispie part.

The proportions would likely work - I suspect the sugar isn't a necessary part, nor the citric acid.

Chef Rubber carries methocellulose for a not outrageous price.

Kerry,

As usual, you are a genius. This worked absolutely perfectly. I used 2 cups meat broth, 1 gram xanthan and 6 grams high-viscosity methyl cellulose. It created a perfect, hot, meat-broth mousse.

I'm going to try something with one of the more heat-stable carrageenans too, as suggested by Mike, just in the interest of science. ;-)

Best,

Alan

[A Patric]

So, an interesting note on my FAIL related to my above success.

For the test above, I used a cheap pack of "Au Jus" mix. It worked perfectly. When I actually spent all day making an incredible meat stock and tried it again, the mousse simply deflated.

I wasn't quite sure what the issue was. At first I suspected additives in the Au Jus mix that might have actually promoted the foam, but at the end of the day, it just didn't quite make sense to me as they were only small amounts of things like cornstarch. I thought about the other possibilities, and the significant amount of natural gelatin in my home-made stock gave me pause.

Could it be binding in ways that inhibit other hydrocolloids? A quick Google search confirmed:

Polysaccharide-protein interaction: a rheological study of the gel-sol transition of a gelatin-methylcellulose-water system.

Oh well. Now I just have to figure out how to distill the flavor of the meat broth while leaving the gelatin behind. Sounds easy enough.

Actually, I know that there are expensive devices that can do this. Would there be an easier/cheaper way? Freezer distillation of some sort?

All ideas welcome.

Best,

Alan

[pep.]

Oh well. Now I just have to figure out how to distill the flavor of the meat broth while leaving the gelatin behind. Sounds easy enough.

Actually, I know that there are expensive devices that can do this. Would there be an easier/cheaper way? Freezer distillation of some sort?

Gelatin clarification should do that for you: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html

[Shalmanese]

So, an interesting note on my FAIL related to my above success.

For the test above, I used a cheap pack of "Au Jus" mix. It worked perfectly. When I actually spent all day making an incredible meat stock and tried it again, the mousse simply deflated.

I wasn't quite sure what the issue was. At first I suspected additives in the Au Jus mix that might have actually promoted the foam, but at the end of the day, it just didn't quite make sense to me as they were only small amounts of things like cornstarch. I thought about the other possibilities, and the significant amount of natural gelatin in my home-made stock gave me pause.

Could it be binding in ways that inhibit other hydrocolloids? A quick Google search confirmed:

Polysaccharide-protein interaction: a rheological study of the gel-sol transition of a gelatin-methylcellulose-water system.

Oh well. Now I just have to figure out how to distill the flavor of the meat broth while leaving the gelatin behind. Sounds easy enough.

Actually, I know that there are expensive devices that can do this. Would there be an easier/cheaper way? Freezer distillation of some sort?

All ideas welcome.

Best,

Alan

Mixing stock with meat tenderizer (papain or bromelain) will denature the gelatin. Heat the stock above 65C once denatured to deactivate the enzyme.

[Tri2Cook]

Oh well. Now I just have to figure out how to distill the flavor of the meat broth while leaving the gelatin behind. Sounds easy enough.

Actually, I know that there are expensive devices that can do this. Would there be an easier/cheaper way? Freezer distillation of some sort?

Gelatin clarification should do that for you: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/dining/05curi.html

Yep, that will leave the gelatin behind and clarify the stock all in one shot. Be forewarned though, the yield may be a bit disappointing if the gelatin level in your stock is relatively high. If it's much more than a very light gel consistency at fridge temp you may lose more volume than you'll be happy about. If yield isn't a big concern, you can pull the filtered stock before the frozen block completely thaws, once it starts looking lighter in color throughout, and end up with a more concentrated stock than you had going in which should help with flavor in a foam.

[A Patric]

Thanks everyone. I'll give the freezer method a try first and move on from there if need be. I'll just use the byproduct--all the slightly meaty gelatin--to help give body to some other meat-based sauces down the road.

Best,

Alan