Casual Fine Dining in Western Canada

[jamiemaw]

Western Canada is unique in the world for the number and high quality of CFD concepts incubated right here. It's been largely overlooked by the food media, and last month CFD ARTICLE I took it upon myself to see just how they got so good.

The short answer: Superlative service training, outstanding development chefs, cleanliness and design, and value. Now industry executives from around the world visit frequently to see the phenomenon first-hand.

What are your dining or actual work experiences at these concept chains, whether Earls, Cactus Club, Milestone's The Keg, Moxie's, Joey's, Saltlik et al?

[Keith Talent]

My last experience at a Vancouver CFD was pretty much like every other, dismal. Jamie, I've never experienced the epiphanies you have at Vancouver CFD's, they're always lacking. The day before the arrival of the latest Vanmag saw me heading to Earls for dinner. It was horrible. The menu is uninspired, and features such fine dining staples as chicken fingers. No restaurant should feature chicken fingers unles the target demographic is six year olds.

I selected the steak sandwich, my wife the rib special, the ingrates shared a burger. The dated interior (dark wood, Euro apertif prints, giant bottles filled witrh alternating levels of dry pasta and beans creating patterns that fairly scream "Special needs student art project") was noisy, drafty and worn around the edges. Had a couple glasses of wine, selected from the unimaginative wine card. The reserve list has a few bargins, but really nothing to get too fired up about.

Dinner comes. Wifes ribs are sickly sweet, too tender belying the fact that they were likely boiled, then finished under the salamander slathered in goopy sauce to brown slightly. Honestly, they were an embarassment. My steak sandwich was not a steak sandwich at all, at least not like expected, but rather was the thinnly sliced trimmings sauteed. They had to be thinnly sliced as the were composed primarily of fat and grizzle and there was no way to chew it if not precut. The "steak" was served in a ciabatta (Italian for "crap squishy wonderbread in a non-traditional (to North America) shape with the vague patina of forigness about it), and came with peppers and onions sauteed. More a cheeseless philli cheese steak than traditional steak sandwich.

The burger was average. Fries very good.

Where is the Noble influence at Earls? It's not on the menu, there's nothing on it that appears to be even halfway inspired by a Bocuse D'or competitor. The monthly special was a pork chop with peach relish, which sounds a little bit cheffy if the year was 1992.

And the scary thing is Cacus Club in magnitudes worse than Earls. The only local CFD I like is Brown's in Yaletown, it consistantly for me lives up to the promise of what a CFD should be.

The funny thing is the only true innovation by Vancouver CFD's is in the human resources department, then again all they did was rip a page from the Hooters playbook. American chain "Cheesecake Factory" would eat Earls lunch (if Earls food was edible) in a second were they to come north. While I'm philisophically opposed to the portion sizes, the food is better, service better and decor, while ugly at least has seen a feather duster pass by occasionally.

[nwyles]

Wow,

don't pull any punches Keith !

Jamie, your love of the Vancouver based CFD is well known. They are progressing and making inroads in the food dept. with the likes of Noble and Bond. Having worked for a chain for a number of years, I can tell you one thing about them. Changes comes soooooo slow. The trickle down from the Product Development Committee to the store level takes a lifetime and quite often dumbed down to meet the store level's skill.

I would imagine that you are quite often at product rollout meetings etc. and the experience you get at the store level is, well how does one put this, um, you are , um , Jamie Maw, and your experience is perhaps a little different, than Mr. and Mrs. Talent and their Lesser Talents.

I certainly enjoy Earl's but it is by no means all that you claim, in my experience. I am the first one to take advantage of their well priced reserve wines. I have yet to have a steak there as I do not enjoy a New York striploin cut into something called the California cut. I have found the service to be hit and miss and although the food serves the purpose, it too can be hit and miss. I know we all enjoy the "Human Resources" aspect of the chain but the one that we frequent has one girl in particular that dresses like a common street walker. She stands out like a glaring red light in the dining room, as opposed to the other servers, who, while pretty, dress more appropriately for a restaurant like that. You have to see it to believe it.

Brown's and the Cactus Club, along with the Keg, are all cut from the same cloth. I have gone on record here about the lousy job Milestones has done. They have so many tools at their disposal, but, everytime, without fail, fall down.

I am looking forward to the Burger Club's report on CC and eagerly await more of Mike Noble's influence at Earl's. I might have missed it but have not seen any yet.

Edited February 1, 2006 by nwyles (log)

[Matt R.]

Jamie;

I have really enjoyed reading your observations on the CFD concept. As a three and a half year veteran (behind the line) of Milestone's Victoria, doing 800+ covers a night in 12 minutes or less I feel acutely aware of what Julian Bond, Michael Noble, Jim Romer et al. are trying to accomplish.

The challenge they have in making this all work with $10/hr employees is monumental, and indeed is their greatest weakness. You get what you pay for. Training costs combined with staff turnover creates a sometimes unworkable atmosphere when servers can bring home $40,000 + /yr in grats, on top of their wage.

It truly comes down to numbers, and unfortunately not much else. Turnover, training and re-training are built into the four decimal point food cost of that burger, for every slice of onion wasted can add up to another employee over the course of a year.

It is shameful that a company like Cara Foods can sell 1.5 Billion dollars a year worth of food, yet not see fit to pay the person actually producing that food more than 25 grand.

The upside is that I really, truly learned how to *kick ass* on the line, and can execute better than almost anyone I know. I believe that every young cook should spend a summer at a really, really busy place like Milestone's, just so they know how well they perform under real pressure. Call it a stage

After earning my Red Seal, and landing a good job at the Victoria Marriott under Chef Jeff Keenliside, giving Charles Gelling (esteemed Milestone's chef) nine days notice was one of the happiest days of my adult life. Before him, Peter de Bruyn was the chef at Milestone's (now running Ric's Grill in Victoria, not only an excellent leader, but an excellent cook). Had he not left and been replaced by Charles, I feel confident in saying I would be a Sr Sous or better with Milestone's, not a bad career choice at all, and well above the $10-12/hr paid to senior line cooks.

I traded that for a first cook position, working under a real chef, who is a great boss, and an excellent teacher.

I think people may be missing the point of these places. They really try to be everything to everyone. Not finding a niche, but creating a market for themselves as they go. Holding on hard to the middle ground can be difficult, but is still worthwhile. After all most people are by definition "average".

When I was there, Milestone's did treat their staff well in every regard, except pay, doing things like winery retreats, paying for advanced first aid training, management development and really focussing on team building. I'm sure every CFD resto has a similar program, but Milestone's Developer Program ('train the trainer') was highly effective, at least to me. Over an intense two days, you were taught their training system and how to use it effectively. In all my years working in a kitchen, I have seen no better training method than their 'tell, show, do, review'. I still use it today.

Consistency is absolutely key to these places. The food doesn't need to be terribly innovative - that's not their market - but it does need to be the exact same in Victoria as it is in Toronto. Milestone's Victoria was also the cleanest restaurant I have worked in. Service was often a gong show, but after the last plate went out it was wall to wall to ceiling clean. At least 10 hours a day, every day, went into cleaning that line. And then the janitors would show up ....

When I started, I was very surprised at the quality of food going out. Nearly everything was made from scratch, and all meats except bacon were smoked in-house With such a high product turnover, freshness was never, ever a concern. Many 'better' restaurants work on a three or four (or more) day rotation, they had one or two day turnover of pretty much everything. That means fresh salmon coming in the door Tuesday afternoon, would be gone by Wednesday night. That's pretty hard to beat.

I should say that when I was an on-call cook at the Royal Jubilee Hospital, it was an even cleaner place, but that should be expected. It was an other-worldly experience that I will never repeat.

In short, my tenure there taught me valuable skills in leadership, training, communication and team building. Unfortunately, I learned very little about food, but I'm making up for it.

-- Matt.

[Keith Talent]

First off, great post. I enjoy seeing things from others perspective. The quote that seems incongrous with Jamies article to me is

Consistency is absolutely key to these places.  The food doesn't need to be terribly innovative - that's not their market -

←

If so, why pay Bond/Noble etc. for menu input? Souds like an account/corporate training specialist could effect far more positive change than a "name" chef.

[barolo]

Jamie, I have a less favourable impression of the local CFD establishments than you. I rarely even consider these places when I’m thinking about local restaurants. Mostly I see them as a place to go with friends or work colleagues who aren’t very interested in food or a handy place to stop at if I am traveling and not familiar with the restaurant options. Years ago when I drove between Edmonton and Vancouver fairly often I’d stop at the Earl’s in Kamloops because it was visible from the highway and a convenient stop.

I did go to Saltlik recently – with a colleague. The room is attractive in a corporate, airport executive lounge kind of way, but it feels a bit like an airplane hangar when it is half empty. Lots of young attractive female service staff – the primary indicator (and attraction?) of CFD in Vancouver - who provide a balance to the aging male baby boomer patrons. The servers are obviously trained, but not very knowledgeable and seem to rely on their training rather than common sense when faced with questions. Lots of errors – wine arrives with drinks and appetizers, steaks arrive before we finish our drinks and appetizers, no steak knives until we are well into our steaks. Food is average. I order a rare steak and it looks like medium-rare to me, my baked potato tastes as if it was cooked hours ago and reheated. Best thing we ate was the chicken wings. Good value? Perhaps, but there’s not really anything to make a person like me rush back.

Previous to that I visited an Earl’s in Victoria with an experience somewhat like Keith Talent’s – badly aging room, mediocre food, reasonably priced wine list but nothing to get excited about.

Ultimately I don’t think I’m their target client so I’m not surprised at my lack of enthusiasm. I can appreciate the effort that goes into making these places “work”, as Matt has so eloquently described, and your article was an interesting read, but that doesn’t make them more appealing to me. They are much more fascinating from a business perspective than a food perspective.

[eugene]

The challenge they have in making this all work with $10/hr employees is monumental, and indeed is their greatest weakness.  You get what you pay for.  Training costs combined with staff turnover creates a sometimes unworkable atmosphere when servers can bring home $40,000 + /yr in grats, on top of their wage.

←

I was not aware that the line cooks earn more than $10 an hour, whether that be Earls or *insert name of a famous restaurant*. My experience has shown that the chef (if he’s not the owner) earns the big bucks and spends his day at the golf course. Granted I am generalizing, but that does not change the fact that while the dismal Flying Beaver earned $1.5 million dollars in food revenues alone in ‘02, I was getting $8 dollars an hour.

What did Jerry Maguire say? Help me, help you. $8 an hour is not helping. Especially for a shitty job like a line cook/dish bitch.

That being said, more often than not I’ve had good experiences at Earl/Cactus Club, which is more what I can say about certain non-chain establishments in the Lower Mainland.

[nwyles]

My experience has shown that the chef (if he’s not the owner) earns the big bucks and spends his day at the golf course.

Eugene, please let me know where these places are so that when I sell my place, I know where to go to work on my backswing.

[eugene]

My experience has shown that the chef (if he’s not the owner) earns the big bucks and spends his day at the golf course.

Eugene, please let me know where these places are so that when I sell my place, I know where to go to work on my backswing.

←

Neil, I aint making shit up. When I worked the late shift I would never, ever see him. When I worked the day shift I would see him until around 10-11am. He probably played somewhere in Richmond. I was armpit-deep in crap, so I didn't ask him where he worked on his backswing. Not that I’m bitter!!

[j_edge]

Having worked at Earl's for almost 4 years prior to my other endeavors (spelt right?) taught me all the basics I needed to know for my very happy send off! I don't believe any other restaurant in their right mind would make you take a "knife skills" seminar for 8 hours "cutting" flour on a cutting board until each stroke is uniform with the others. They train their managers extremely well (however when they are thrust into that position...sometimes not so well!!!). And yes the turnover in food was 2 days at Earl's too... The pay is dismal until your a senior member there...but the learning experience, and knowledge that you come out with, and the "systems" you have imbedded in your ming (training point number 6... CAYG (clean as you go), are all skills you take along with you. And do I dare ask how many people at fine dining restaurants started at Earl's or any of these places? (I know the 2 I worked at hovered around 50% and above). And to be brutally honest...the line cooks are mostly 16 year old kids who are still in grade 11! And for a kid to put up with that and come out unscathed...good job! Just my opinion...hope others see it this way also... Ps...their parties will keep you happy!

[Matt R.]

First off, great post. I enjoy seeing things from others perspective. The quote that seems incongrous with Jamies article to me is

Consistency is absolutely key to these places.  The food doesn't need to be terribly innovative - that's not their market -

←

If so, why pay Bond/Noble etc. for menu input? Souds like an account/corporate training specialist could effect far more positive change than a "name" chef.

←

They still need innovation and constant updating to stay less than five years behind the times. A fresh, experienced pair of hands and eyes goes a long way. Mango salsa anyone?

Because of the time it takes to develop plates and the recipes that go with them on such a massive scale, it's not reasonable to expect bleeding edge cuisine out of these places. That market is getting beaten to death anyways. While every menu needs dogs and stars, high-end food often comes with high-end food cost. If you live or die by razor-thin margins and huge volume, a couple of percentage points makes a big difference. Putting a high cost item on a menu may be fun, but it's fruitless if your guests don't want it.

The market, at least in the CRD in my experience, is saturated with upper-end food. If another place opens up selling great food, there may not be the bums to fill the seats.

I believe that there is a reason these are 'name' chefs, and that reason may be that they have all the features corporate head office is looking for. Leadership, management, accountablity (and account ability) *and* a massive skillset behind the stove. It may only be that last point that was missing before. You could say they are a complete package.

-- Matt.

[Matt R.]

I was not aware that the line cooks earn more than $10 an hour, whether that be Earls or *insert name of a famous restaurant*. My experience has shown that the chef (if he’s not the owner) earns the big bucks and spends his day at the golf course. Granted I am generalizing, but that does not change the fact that while the dismal Flying Beaver earned $1.5 million dollars in food revenues alone in ‘02, I was getting $8 dollars an hour.

What did Jerry Maguire say? Help me, help you. $8 an hour is not helping. Especially for a shitty job like a line cook/dish bitch.

←

I suppose it depends on the market. Here in Victoria, line cooks start around $10/hr, and cap about $14/hr for normal restaurants.

Most of the cooks at Milestone's here were in their early twenties, few under that age, and few over 30. Starting pay was $9-10, depending on experience, and capped at $12. Tip pool was another dollar or two per hour on top of that. I was offered a promotion with a raise to $130/day, for a 10 hour shift, plus tips. Sometimes more hours, sometimes less.

IIRC, I left at $11/hr plus tips, for a much, much better job, or so I thought at the time. Very low pay for the amount of energy and skill required for the job. If they paid everyone a little more, turnover would not be as high.

I can't imagine the marketplace on the lower mainland pays less than that! I can, however, see wage disparity throughout the chain. A line cook in Alberta getting paid less than one here, for example.

Perhaps the 'Flying Beaver' should alter it's bonus scheme for their Chef. Mine worked 50-60 hours a week. Every penny they saved, every number that they met went towards a rich performance bonus for them. Train a succesful chef? Five grand.

I hope the Milestone's police don't come after me for spilling the beans!

-- Matt.

[eugene]

^ Matt, fear not, I am pretty sure they fired that chef's ass a long time ago.

[privatejet]

Perspective I guess:

I worked at Earls from 1989-1994 and did every front of the house job under the sun. They certainly did invest in training you in food knowledge and drive home the 'its your business" philosophy. At that time, it seemed there was a genuine commitment to trying to ensure that customers experiences were just "right" of course the place was also a hornet nest of palace intrigue and much sleeping around. I had a massive amount of fun and among my fellow works met many of my closest friends to this day indeed one of them is a contributor to this Board, though in a much loftier culinary position] I thought I was a shit hot server, and I did go on to serve for a few years at a higher end restaurant in Edmonton but truth be told given what I know now [and the prism that is looking back on your youth], I have no idea if I was a good server. In reality, I can only say that I could cope well, got no complaints and therefore only did closing shifts. I shudder to think what my customers experiences were when I was dealing with a late evening slam.

In the Vancouver market, I think that Earls food is quite expensive. Many of their en trees are at the price levels of Chambar, Nu, Zin, Glowbal and I certainly don't think either Earls food or service are in that category.

On the other hand, having spent a few years out East recently, I believe the West Coast CFD are miles ahead of their competitors such as East Coast Marios. I was told numerous times by colleagues and acquaintances in Toronto how thrilled they were with Milestones.

And sitting here in London, England writing this I dont think these CFD have many peers. There are a few chains such as Bierodrome/Wagamamas/Pizza Express that are the closest in concept, IMO to our CFD but the food is far more specific and the service standards are nowhere close to what one would expect.

I certainly agree with Mr. Maw's assessment that our establishments our certainly first rate CFD and perhaps both the sophistication of the CFD market in Vancouver and the bevy of fine casual one-off restaurants in Vancouver has kept most of the truly horrible CD restaurants such as the Red Robin, Red Lobster, etc. out of Vancouver.

And Cheesecake Cafe: I have only eaten there once in the past six months in Bellvue but I'll give you 2-1 odds that it would be Earls that would eat their lunch should they come north.

[lauraf]

From 15 - 22 I worked as a hostess or server at various CFD restaurants in the province, and while I might only net $10 - $12/hour as a hostess (more as a server) most of it was in tips, not taxed, and I didn't have many other peers - other than a friend who made $20/hour cleaning fish guts in Richmond - who were making more $$ at that age. Most retail jobs paid worse, the environment was fun, you ate for free or a sizeable discount, and it's where I found all my boyfriends.

While it would be pretty hard to support a family on those wages, as a put-yourself-through-school or early work experience, it was one of the best opportunities going in my world . . .

[eugene]

From 15 - 22 I worked as a hostess or server at various CFD restaurants in the province, and while I might only net $10 - $12/hour as a hostess (more as a server) most of it was in tips, not taxed, and I didn't have many other peers - other than a friend who made $20/hour cleaning fish guts in Richmond - who were making more $$ at that age.  Most retail jobs paid worse, the environment was fun, you ate for free or a sizeable discount, and it's where I found all my boyfriends. 

While it would be pretty hard to support a family on those wages, as a put-yourself-through-school or early work experience, it was one of the best opportunities going in my world . . .

←

I think we're going entering the world of discrimination here as I am pretty sure Cactus Club et. al. hires their servers on the basis of tits-to-blond ratio, and men are segregated to the back. And the tips rarely dribble to that part of the business on equal par to what you were pocketing.

Edited February 2, 2006 by eugene (log)

[lauraf]

I can't comment on what the kithcen staff were clearing, and, um, yes, being a pretty, well-dressed and well-spoken gal certainly helped. So does being a good-looking, well-dressed and well-spoken guy.

As I said before, yes, it would be difficult to support a family on $10/hour. My point is that at the entry level, the money wasn't fantastic but certainly not slave's wages. You didn't need tons of experience as they provided excellent training, and it's how I helped pay for university. Plus I doubt that the cash tip-outs get accurately reported to Revenue Canada . . .

And the training - FOH and BOH - translates into many other areas of life - presentation, CAYG, multi-tasking, maintaining cool under pressure, teamwork . . . an excellent launching pad for any career. In fact, the training is so well-known that having an Earl's experience on your resume impresses even outside of the hospitality industry.

[jamiemaw]

First off, great post. I enjoy seeing things from others perspective. The quote that seems incongrous with Jamies article to me is

Consistency is absolutely key to these places.  The food doesn't need to be terribly innovative - that's not their market -

←

If so, why pay Bond/Noble etc. for menu input? Souds like an account/corporate training specialist could effect far more positive change than a "name" chef.

←

I was pleased to return from my daylight job of banging nails to see the effusive early response that this thread has sparked - both good and not so good.

I was also pleased that Keith felt a compunction to respond. And for the record, I think the experience (as I said in the Burger Club thread, I ate a lot of wings and chicken tenders over the past year) at old-format Earls locations (Broadway and Fir, Kelowna, Victoria) is different than that in new rooms (Paramount Place). In fact, last weekend, at Paramount Place, we enjoyed a solid if predictable dinner, in possibly the best venue to watch hockey games, and two bottles of the impossible-to-find Sandhill 2003 Phantom Creek Petit Verdot, for $30. I quite enjoyed myself, as did our friends, who are rather more sophisticated diners than me.

Neil Wyles    Jamie, your love of the Vancouver based CFD is well known. They are progressing and making inroads in the food dept. with the likes of Noble and Bond. Having worked for a chain for a number of years, I can tell you one thing about them. Changes comes soooooo slow. The trickle down from the Product Development Committee to the store level takes a lifetime and quite often dumbed down to meet the store level's skill.

I would imagine that you are quite often at product rollout meetings etc. and the experience you get at the store level is, well how does one put this, um, you are , um , Jamie Maw, and your experience is perhaps a little different, than Mr. and Mrs. Talent and their Lesser Talents.

I'm not sure that I love CFD, Neil, but thanks for the offer.

I have been quite intrigued by several things relevant to local CFDs though: there are a lot of local chains that clearly operate at a service, food and design level superior to other Canadian and American concepts; new CFDs are achieving annual revenues of over $5 million plus; foreign industry executives and consultants arrive here frequently to research them; and the food media, by in large, is effusively ignorant of them.

That being said, there is a certain ubiquity to them, beginning the moment you walk in the front door. Stacked rock fireplaces, columns of flat-screens, and coltish servers who run like thoroughbreds and seem very happy for the income. Like Keith, I feel an organic urge and even civic duty to tip out heavily to help them with their tuition.

Michael Noble's first chain-wide roll-out of new menu items will be launched next week, about a year since he joined Earls. Julian Bond has made more aggressive changes at Cactus Club, removing quite a few items and building the menu back.

The one chain that I found consistently enervating and unexciting was Moxie's; it seemed an unimaginative and cheaper version of the species.

I agree with lauraf and others that their training is sound preparation for what lies ahead, and that mention on a resume is a step up: it implies training, Needs Satisfaction skills, and a mind that can get organized for a solid shift, whether it be in the restaurant industry, or in a law partnership, or selling something more expensive than a margarita on a Monday.

Lastly, and perhaps even more importantly, I also think there's a lesson to be learned by independent restaurateurs from CFD ingredient procurement, systems, floor management, service training, cleanliness and more.

Jamie

Edited February 2, 2006 by jamiemaw (log)

[lauraf]

First off, great post. I enjoy seeing things from others perspective. The quote that seems incongrous with Jamies article to me is

Consistency is absolutely key to these places.  The food doesn't need to be terribly innovative - that's not their market -

←

If so, why pay Bond/Noble etc. for menu input? Souds like an account/corporate training specialist could effect far more positive change than a "name" chef.

←

I was pleased to return from my daylight job of banging nails to see the effusive early response that this thread has sparked - both good and not so good.

I was also pleased that Keith felt a compunction to respond. And for the record, I think the experience (as I said in the Burger Club thread, I ate a lot of wings and chicken tenders over the past year) at old-format Earls locations (Broadway and Fir, Kelowna, Victoria) is different than that in new rooms (Paramount Place). In fact, last weekend, at Paramount Place, we enjoyed a solid if predictable dinner, in possibly the best venue to watch hockey games, and two bottles of the impossible-to-find Sandhill 2003 Phantom Creek Petit Verdot, for $30. I quite enjoyed myself, as did our friends, who are rather more sophisticated diners than me.

Neil Wyles    Jamie, your love of the Vancouver based CFD is well known. They are progressing and making inroads in the food dept. with the likes of Noble and Bond. Having worked for a chain for a number of years, I can tell you one thing about them. Changes comes soooooo slow. The trickle down from the Product Development Committee to the store level takes a lifetime and quite often dumbed down to meet the store level's skill.

I would imagine that you are quite often at product rollout meetings etc. and the experience you get at the store level is, well how does one put this, um, you are , um , Jamie Maw, and your experience is perhaps a little different, than Mr. and Mrs. Talent and their Lesser Talents.

I'm not sure that I love CFD, Neil, but thanks for the offer.

I have been quite intrigued by several things relevant to local CFDs though: there are a lot of local chains that clearly operate at a service, food and design level superior to other Canadian and American concepts; new CFDs are achieving annual revenues of over $5 million plus; foreign industry executives and consultants arrive here frequently to research them; and the food media, by in large, is effusively ignorant of them.

That being said, there is a certain ubiquity to them, beginning the moment you walk in the front door. Stacked rock fireplaces, columns of flat-screens, and coltish servers who run like thoroughbreds and seem very happy for the income. Like Keith, I feel an organic urge and even civic duty to tip out heavily to help them with their tuition.

Michael Noble's first chain-wide roll-out of new menu items will be launched next week, about a year since he joined Earls. Julian Bond has made more aggressive changes at Cactus Club, removing quite a few items and building the menu back.

The one chain that I found consistently enervating and unexciting was Moxie's; it seemed an unimaginative and cheaper version of the species.

I agree with lauraf and others that their training is sound preparation for what lies ahead, and that mention on a resume is a step up: it implies training, Needs Satisfaction skills, and a mind that can get organized for a solid shift, whether it be in the restaurant industry, or in a law partnership, or selling something more expensive than a margarita on a Monday.

Lastly, and perhaps even more importantly, I also think there's a lesson to be learned by independent restaurateurs from CFD ingredient procurement, systems, floor management, service training, cleanliness and more.

Jamie

←

Like an ad in Vancouver Magazine? Et tu, Jamie . . .

[jamiemaw]

Like an ad in Vancouver Magazine?     Et tu, Jamie . . .

←

Caesar, brutally. Salad.

Edited February 2, 2006 by jamiemaw (log)

[lauraf]

Like an ad in Vancouver Magazine?     Et tu, Jamie . . .

←

Caesar. Salad.

←

Freshly tossed . . .

[Andrew Morrison]

^ Goodness girls...

I've been pre-programmed to loathe chain restaurants of every stripe, be it a shit box in a strip mall or a faux cadeau dressed up in boobs. When I first heard the term "leader" to describe a manager, I nearly barfed.

As for their hiring practices, you can lead a horse through a much-vaunted training regimen, but you can't make it think. I go at least once a month to my neighbourhood Earl's and Cactus Club, and the service at both makes the inclusion of FD in CFD a laughable misnomer. If we're in the business of striving for accuracy, let's call it CFU. Honestly, beauty might be a form of genius, but the service here is not.

The food? No thanks. For the same money, I'd sooner go to Nu, Chambar, Diner. Glowbal, Bin, Lolita's, Feenie's, or Baru Latino. In my humble opinion, witnessing individuality, quirkiness, and honest zeal work a room is worth far more than the few bucks I stand to save on wine poured by someone who needs help opening the damn bottle.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Andrew Morrison (log)

[Daddy-A]

The food? No thanks. For the same money, I'd sooner go to Nu, Chambar, Diner. Glowbal, Bin, Lolita's, Feenie's, or Baru Latino.

And therein lies the rub. I believe this market, while a great incubation site for CFD endeavours, is also an extrememly competitive market place. There's just way too much competition for the dining buck.

I was in Winnipeg about 8 years ago, and the only place worth eating (and that I could afford) was an Earls. Consistent food, in that it was exactly what I had eaten a dozen times at Earls in BC. There's a lot to be said for that. It may not be mean a lot to many of us who post here, but for many many people it's pretty important.

A.

[Matt R.]

As for their hiring practices, you can lead a horse through a much-vaunted training regimen, but you can't make it think. I go at least once a month to my neighbourhood Earl's and Cactus Club, and the service at both makes the inclusion of FD in CFD a laughable misnomer. If we're in the business of striving for accuracy, let's call it CFU. Honestly, beauty might be a form of genius, but skankiness is not.

The food? No thanks. For the same money, I'd sooner go to Nu, Chambar, Diner. Glowbal, Bin, Lolita's, Feenie's, or Baru Latino. In my humble opinion, witnessing individuality, quirkiness, and honest zeal work a room is worth far more than the few bucks I stand to save on wine poured by someone who needs help opening the damn bottle.

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Andrew, you must realize there are cheaper ways for a man such as yourself to see a pair of breasts! You go at least once a month?

I have to agree with Andrew's above point. I think CFD restos are probably a better place to work than to eat. In Victoria, and apparantly as in Vancouver, you can do better for the same money, or a little bit more. In fact, you can do a hell of a lot better, in terms of food and service. I spend my meagre earnings out at Brasserie, Ferris', Spinnaker's, John's Noodle Village, Yoshi's and of course the Oak Bay Marina, where I get staff pricing and the view is unbeatable.

In general, I like to support independent operations of any sort, as long as they compete. I think in foodservice, CFD's and indies have a lot to learn from each other, if they can get past their snobbery and elitism.

-- Matt.

[*Deborah*]

^ Goodness girls...

I've been pre-programmed to loathe chain restaurants of every stripe, be it a shit box in a strip mall or a faux cadeau dressed up in boobs. When I first heard the term "leader" to describe a manager, I nearly barfed. 

As for their hiring practices, you can lead a horse through a much-vaunted training regimen, but you can't make it think. I go at least once a month to my neighbourhood Earl's and Cactus Club, and the service at both makes the inclusion of FD in CFD a laughable misnomer. If we're in the business of striving for accuracy, let's call it CFU. Honestly, beauty might be a form of genius, but skankiness is not.

The food? No thanks. For the same money, I'd sooner go to Nu, Chambar, Diner. Glowbal, Bin, Lolita's, Feenie's, or Baru Latino. In my humble opinion, witnessing individuality, quirkiness, and honest zeal work a room is worth far more than the few bucks I stand to save on wine poured by someone who needs help opening the damn bottle.

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I'm with you on all of that, but IIRC, you swoon for the washrooms at the Cactus Club...