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Madrid Fusión 2006 - Ferran's manifesto


AlexForbes

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This may be a rudamentary type question, but after truly enjoying every post in this thread, I must know how one goes about attending this "seminar?"  Is a ticket based thing or is it a selective process of who gets to attend.  Thanks for the great information and the wondeful accounts of this amazing affair!!!

It's an inscription based event with an attendance limit, first come first served. I guess you can get more info at Madrid Fusion site.

PedroEspinosa (aka pedro)

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The improvement of sardines in can has been studied for decades by the greatest fans of this type of food - the Portuguese and the French. French fans vintage-date their sardine cans and wait for years to eat the contents (one important requisite: turning the can over every five or six months, so that the oil will always permeate the fish). The quality of each subsequent vintage of sardines and its aging pattern is much discussed in French culinary circles...

Touché, Vserna. But from your comment above I am led to believe that all canned things improve with time, and yet I am pretty sure that, as with wine, the rising curve reaches a peak and then starts to descend. Please enlighten me: after how many years of aging does a sardine start to develop rancid flavours? And how does a sardine age differently than, say, oysters? And must they be kept at wine-cellar-like conditions, or is a hot kitchen pantry just as well? What if you inject different gases into the tin to tweak the aging process? Are you sure the French know all there is to know about this? Are you sure Ferran won't surprise you with a new take on this (and other) subjects?

About the Madrid Fusion: qualified press and a few hand-picked chefs attend for free. Others must pay an entrance fee of 650E, plus 10E for each seminar.

Edited by AlexForbes (log)

Alexandra Forbes

Brazilian food and travel writer, @aleforbes on Twitter

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The improvement of sardines in can has been studied for decades by the greatest fans of this type of food - the Portuguese and the French. French fans vintage-date their sardine cans and wait for years to eat the contents (one important requisite: turning the can over every five or six months, so that the oil will always permeate the fish). The quality of each subsequent vintage of sardines and its aging pattern is much discussed in French culinary circles...

Touché, Vserna. But from your comment above I am led to believe that all canned things improve with time, and yet I am pretty sure that, as with wine, the rising curve surely reaches a peak and then starts to descend. Please enlighten me: after how many years of aging does a sardine start to develop rancid flavours? And how does a sardine age differently than, say, oysters? And must they be kept at wine-cellar-like conditions, or is a hot kitchen pantry just as well? What if you inject different gases into the tin to tweek the aging process? Are you sure the French know all there is to know about this? Are you sure Ferran won't surprise you with a new take on this (and other) subjects?

. . . . .

I saw Jose Andres's program on Madrid Fusión. He mentioned canning and the study of the processes of what happens once the food has been canned as an area where many things were still unaddress. Of course, it's not that they don't know that certain products taste better over time when canned, but what they suggest studying is why that happens as the first step to master and taking advantage of that.

PedroEspinosa (aka pedro)

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Exactly, Pedro. I was at that same presentation, and agree that

there's much still to be studied and explored in the

domain of canning, and other types of food processing.

Andres even wanted to share with the audience his awe of

Cheez Whiz! But I don't want to open this can of worms... ;)

I'll have to run for cover!

Alexandra Forbes

Brazilian food and travel writer, @aleforbes on Twitter

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Are you sure the French know all there is to know about this? Are you sure Ferran won't surprise you with a new take on this (and other) subjects?

Sorry, Alex, but I was specifically responding to this inaccurate statement you made:

Ferran and his peers are trying to find answers to questions never before asked (as far as I know), such as whether a canned sardine in tomato sauce will taste better after 5 yrs.

Of course Ferran can pursue the research into the aging of canned sardines further than it's been done to date, and he's certainly capable of doing so. What is incorrect is that these questions have "never before" been asked...

My advice to would-be researchers: start by reading La sardine, de la mer à la boîte.

French sardine lovers reckon that a top-notch vintage will improve in the can for about 7-10 years - then stay at that plateau for quite a while longer.

Edited by vserna (log)

Victor de la Serna

elmundovino

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As you can see in the top French commercial web site that I already mentioned (http://www.pennsardin.com/commande/commande.php), in France they vintage-date sardines, 'anchois' (anchovies) and 'lisettes' (Atlantic mackerels). They have the oldest canneries in the world in Brittany (going back to the 1830s), and quite a lot of... well, 'savoir faire' in gourmet canning. If they vintage-date those varieties, it has to be because they can all improve with age. We do very well in Spain too, canning-wise, but we have never done any vintage-dated stuff (AFAIK).

Victor de la Serna

elmundovino

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I don't know too much about this subject other than that I have been aware that French restaurants conscious of the reputation will display and served canned sardines in the original tin if they are a marque that carries an excellent reputation. I have not been aware of vintage consciousness in regard to sardines, so I can only make suppositions, but experience in regard to other dated products would suggest that in some cases a product may be expected to improve over time and in other cases, a date on the container is only important in regard to freshness. Few products, if any, continue to improve forever.

I am also going to suggest there are acquired tastes and educated tastes. As with cheeses, there are those who like a cheese young and those who prefer it well aged. At the same time, there are likely to be fans at many different stages of a cheese's life.

What is obvious to me from the pennsardin.com list, is that older sardines are more expensive than recent vintages. In no case did a younger vintage of a particular brand go for more than an older vintage. That doesn't prove the older vintages are better, but I assume there are costs involved in maintaining the product (turning the tins, for instance, as well as paying for storage) and that there is a dedicated clientele willing to pay a premium for aged sardines. At the same time, I would assume that as stocks dwindle, the price may rise in accord with the law of supply and demand.

I know some of those brands and have brought excellent sardines in tins back to the states from Brittany and other parts of France. I have never looked for a vintage date, and have generally made my purchase at a local supermarket. I will shop more closely the next time I am in Brittany. With the knowledge contained in this thread, I will be likely to bring back more than I can eat in a short time.

Robert Buxbaum

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Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

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Sometimes there are differences of opionion. Not particularily newsworthy but...Article here.

Or, on the other hand, perhaps newsworthy but lopsided and inaccurate. It seems like a back lash that's been waiting to come out from under a rock. I like to think I have an even sense of Adrià and elBulli. Everymeal has been both exciting and satisfying and I look forward to my next meal there, but it's not my absolute favorite place to eat in Spain.

The innovative dishes listed are perhaps fictitious. I've not heard of rabbit ears being served, but then as pig's ears are a treat to many people, perhaps rabbit ears could as well be served without departing far from the traditions of western European cooking.

Josep Maria Fonalleras offers opinion only and specious at that. I don't care if Adrià uses a screw driver, folling pin or curling iron to coil a thread of sugar. Having eaten well at bargain prices in Spain, I will only note that prices in Madrid are rising rather quickly, but it's a fact that elBulli's price will seem exceptionally high to the average Spaniard. On the other hand, such a price will seem a bargain to diners who frequent multistar restaurants in London or Paris. As a friend of ours remarked at his first meal with us at elBulli, this is incredibly labor intensive food. The only way Adrià can served it for the price is because of all the young volunteers he has willing to work in exchange for the learning experience. One has to wonder about the extent of Juan Vasquez Liston's dining experience. He got one thing correct. There is no correlation between the size of a gehry designed building and it's value as architecture.

The dig at self education and at the ocupation of the chef's father is simply proof that the author ran out of steam before he made much in the way of a point. Arthur Lubow, by the way, is not the food critic of the New York Times and has never been their designated food critic. Indeed, Adrià accurately has the last laugh. Thanks for the read, however.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Agreed on almost all of Bux's points, and IMO a not very well written article. My meals at EB have been great fun, that is the best way I can describe it, however, a backlash is inevitable considering the risks that he takes. I have never had an issue with his or anyone else's pricing in Spain. Go to Arpege if you want to compare...

The rabbit ears indeed,appeared on a menu a year or two ago.

Ultimately whatever criticism that comes Adria's way will be because of the coarseness of his poor imitators and not because of his own work or the (very few) practitioners who understand the foundation and philosophy behind the many concepts. I am always reminded of the irony of Adria's early dictum "Creativity is when you copy no one" when I read articles like this. Oh, and this one:

The more people cook (copy) like me, the better off I am..."

Edited by milla (log)
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I've read the complete Fonalleras's article published by La Vanguardia (the article in Spanish (premium only)). After reading it, I can say that I doubt Keeley understood what Fonalleras intended to say. True, Fonalleras chose an indirect way of defending Adrià and his proposals, but that's precisely what he did. Quoting just a couple of sentences of the first paragraphs and removing them from their context doesn't help either.

Fonalleras says that he won't object to those who claim that Adrià is crazy. That's true, he continues, and was already true when he met him ten years ago at the time Adrià was writing El Bulli: El sabor del Mediterráneo. Adrià already was thinking of "combinations that resembled more mathematics than cooking." Fonalleras adds: "He talked of his creative process with the vehemence, composure and inspiration of a poet. He was crazy back then, and what he has seen, lived and created have turned him even crazier."

Then, after arguing that you shouldn't simply dismiss this craziness with a smile or conmiseration because this is the kind of madness of someone who publishes more than eight thousand pages in four volumes to support his project, concludes:

"A very sane insanity."

PedroEspinosa (aka pedro)

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One has to wonder about the extent of Juan Vasquez Liston's dining experience.

This gentleman is described as "a restaurant critic". I'm myself a somewhat well-known restaurant critic in Spain, and probably the one with the longest continuous tenure - and I had never heard about Mr. Vasquez Liston......

Victor de la Serna

elmundovino

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My point precisely. We're all critics, even the most amateur as well as the most unprofessional among us. I'll leave it to others to guess whether it's your fault you haven't familiarized yourself with Juan Vasquez Liston or his failing to have a voice that's heard by those who pay close attention to Spanish cooking. :biggrin:

But it is interesting that Juan Vasquez Liston, whose role as a critic seems to stem from his contribution to an online food forum, is cited as a critic, while Adrià, a chef whose greatest respect comes from others in his profession around the world, is described as "self taught," along with the implication that he is less than professional in his role as chef.

Pedro's point about Graham Keely misinterpreting Josep Maria Fonalleras, or at least taking his comments out of context is most pointed. I suspect the comments were taken out of context perhaps because the writer was not a fluent speaker of Spanish and merely skimming articles to find applicable short quotes.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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thanks for those pics that one of wylie, thomas and harold and joseph looks great all in such deep concentration did anyone get to see any of the juan roca / roca brothers exhibitions , i didnt get to go but some of the other boys in our kitchen did and siad they were the ones that had a few ppl in awe i know thier website is great i tink its cellarconroca .com or thier abouts ? :smile:

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I'm myself a somewhat well-known restaurant critic in Spain, and probably the one with the longest continuous tenure 

Hello to all,

(joaorose = joão roseira, Vale do Douro, Portugal, wine grower of both Porto and Douro DOC still wines)

being my first post on eG, i think i could not start with a better quote than one from Victor de la Serna.

On the el Buli/Adrià - It is true we are all critics, it is true we are always learning, it is true we should keep an open mind, it is true we should make statements in good faith, it is true great, innovative work (art?) will puzzle a lot of people and create positive and negative reactions, fame will always generate admiration and envy.

On the sardinhas - like in España here in Portugal we have a nice diversity of canned sea food, not vintage dated though. I was wondering what kind of date is written on the cans, month and year or just year? A lot of our stuff is better in some months than others, so i guess the month would be an important issue.

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thanks for those pics that one of wylie,  thomas and harold and joseph looks great all in such deep concentration did anyone get to see any of the juan roca / roca brothers exhibitions , i didnt get to go but some of the other boys in our kitchen did and siad they were the ones that had a few ppl in awe i know thier website is great i tink its cellarconroca .com or thier abouts ?  :smile:

http://www.cellercanroca.com/

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Hello to all,

(joaorose = joão roseira, Vale do Douro, Portugal, wine grower of both Porto and Douro DOC still wines)

being my first post on eG, i think i could not start with a better quote than one from Victor de la Serna.

On the el Buli/Adrià - It is true we are all critics, it is true we are always learning, it is true we should keep an open mind, it is true we should make statements in good faith, it is true great, innovative work (art?) will puzzle a lot of people and create positive and negative reactions, fame will always generate admiration and envy.

On the sardinhas - like in España here in Portugal we have a nice diversity of canned sea food, not vintage dated though. I was wondering what kind of date is written on the cans, month and year or just year? A lot of our stuff is better in some months than others, so i guess the month would be an important issue.

Olá João! Glad to see you around here... Concerning your question, I've only seen year on the canned sardines, but now that you mention it, I guess month could also be important. In fact, it makes a lot of sense...

Abraço,

Luis

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Pedro's point about Graham Keely misinterpreting Josep Maria Fonalleras, or at least taking his comments out of context is most pointed. I suspect the comments were taken out of context perhaps because the writer was not a fluent speaker of Spanish and merely skimming articles to find applicable short quotes.

Pedro and Bux, I couldn't agree more. Having now read the full article (and yes, I do understand Spanish although my first language is Portuguese), it is quite clear that Fonalleras is praising Ferran's madness. I'll make my point by quoting yet another passage of the article: "Don't look at (Ferran's) madness with a smile of commiseration, with the commonplace dismissal of (his) gastronomy as a mere prank or malabaristic play on words. (...) His is the madness of someone who is sensible enough to state that " the time to theorize has come. To taste well one must read".

Pedro, sorry if I translated a bit freely... ;)

So, once again: Ferran does indeed have the last laugh.

Alexandra Forbes

Brazilian food and travel writer, @aleforbes on Twitter

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Hello to all,

(joaorose = joão roseira, Vale do Douro, Portugal, wine grower of both Porto and Douro DOC still wines)

Hi Jonny !

Glad to see you here.

It will be nice to have a Port, and Douro Wine producer, in the forum. :cool:

About the canned sardines, if I understood your question, there are months that the sardines are better, but I'm afraid the consumer does not have that information. ( wihch months are really good ? )

Um abraço.

Paulo R.

Edited by PauloR (log)
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The best sardine season in the north Atlantic is June-September. The Mouettes d'Arvor cannery has two types of sardines in tins - the 'early ones', canned in late spring, and the regular summer sardines.

That suggests I ask if sardine canning is an all year operation or if it is seasonal. If sardines are not caught in the fall and winter and packed by Mouettes d'Arvor, we pretty much have the distinction assuming spring and summer sardines are identified in some way.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Practically all canning operations are seasonal or intermittent ones, Bux. Canneries go from periods of total silence to periods of incredible hustle and bustle, working around the clock. The Mouettes d'Arvor cannery has two distinct brands of (vintage-dated) sardines: 1ères Sardines de Saison (early season: May) and Sardines "Ville Bleue" (summer sardines).

Victor de la Serna

elmundovino

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In Portugal the old saying goes sardinhas nos meses sem R, literally sardines on months without R. These are may through august (in português as in castellano, français and english).

June and July are the hottest months for sardinhas, the highlight of our "popular saints" festivities. It's one of those occasions when simple but tasty and real food can fulfill your senses.

And not only for us portuguese guys. I remember being with The Wine Importer in Pinhão, having grilled sardines over a slice of local mixed-cereals bread and home-made red wine drunk from plastic cups and feeling in heaven.

What can you say, life can be surprising...

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In Portugal the old saying goes sardinhas nos meses sem R, literally sardines on months without R. These are may through august (in português as in castellano, français and english).

June and July are the hottest months for sardinhas, the highlight of our "popular saints" festivities. It's one of those occasions when simple but tasty and real food can fulfill your senses.

And not only for us portuguese guys. I remember being with The Wine Importer in Pinhão, having grilled sardines over a slice of local mixed-cereals bread and home-made red wine drunk from plastic cups and feeling in heaven.

What can you say, life can be surprising...

A french friend, told me that Sauternes Wine, is good to match with sardines. Try a grilled sardine, with toasted bread and olive oil, and drink it with Sauternes, he said .

Does it make any sense ?

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