Halal Certified Food

[Steve Plotnicki]

"What if there are no non-kosher butchershops to sell the rest to? What did they do with it?"

Jin - I'm not sure what years the laws of kashruth came into being. Meaning being practiced by everyone. But aside from the time when the Jews lived in Israel before the Romans got there, both before and after, the Jews have always been guests in other people's countries. So there was always somebody to sell the rest of the cow to. In fact, if you believe that most religious laws were originally created as a practical way to control people (as I am,) I doubt that the laws of kashruth would have been instituted without a willing buyer for the rest of the cow.

[Jinmyo]

You're probably right, Steve.

Dang. No strip loin? No rib eye? No prime rib?

[Fat Guy]

I'd suggest that the least controversial source for kashruth information (which is not to say non-controversial) is the Orthodox Union (the colloquial way of referring to the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America). These are the folks that license the U-in-a-circle symbol you see on many food products, indicating that they're kosher by the standards of most Orthodox Jews (though some Hasidim require additional standards as I understand it).

The Orthodox Union's Web site is full of information and most of it is so fully explicated that I find it as credible a source as there is. The only thing I'd add is that Orthodox Jews represent the minority of Jews in America and the world, and that among the non-Orthodox there are many variations of kashruth practice. The Conservative movement, for example, has its own set of formalized rules that diverge on some key points from Orthodoxy. And on a personal level many Jews mix and match rules and philosophies, for example many Jews won't eat pork but will eat beef that wasn't slaughtered according to the rituals, etc. Here's the complete story, according to the O-U, about the sciatic nerve thing:

http://www.ou.org/shabbat/recipes/vayishlach62.htm

Here's the main kashruth page, for anybody who wants to spend the rest of the weekend reading it:

http://www.ou.org/kosher/default.htm

To get back to the original subject, if there is anybody with an Islamic background or even some basic Islamic education I'd love to see mention made of an equivalent source where we could all go to do some learning about Halal.

[Bux]

My two cents on a fascinating socio-gastronomic topic are that the dietary laws had nothing to do with cleanliness or health, but are, as others have pointed out, purely tribal for various reasons. I've always assumed hardship, endurance and focus were among these reasons. It would be my contention that the "health" spin arrived more recently for several reasons. Foremost among these was to allow some Jews to modify their food intake with less guilt.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jin - No ribeye is fine. Because it is below a cows shoulder. Don't ask me why that is. We have to ask a zoologist. But Prime rib is the main dish of choice at weddings and Bar Mitzvahs.

Fat Guy - Oy so much reading. There are basically three levels of kosher that have any signifigance in America. The first level is for meat to be raised, slaughtered and prepared in a way that conforms to a kosher standard. All kosher meat meets this minimum and you will find this type of meat in Conservative Jewish homes. The next level of kashruth is "koshering the meat." This is usually done at home by people who buy meat as described in the first example. Depending on how religious you are, you will soak the meat/chickens anywhere from 2-6 hours in a salt water solution in order to remove the blood. The third level is Glatt Kosher and it is still the same meat as the first example. Except the butcher will have a full time rabbi on staff to supervise the koshering of the meat (as described in example two.) So when people shop "Glatt Kosher," that just means the butcher bought certified kosher meat and had a rabbi from the local rabbinical authority supervise the process of the meat soaking in water for 6 hours.

This "supervision" process has sort of been compared to the mafia these days because the cost of having a full time rabbi to supervise is expensive. I know Toby wrote that lovely story about his great-grandfather but these days kosher meat, along with the certification process is a big business. And rabbinical supervision has extended to other areas as well. There have been a few kosher sushi restaurants that have opened where World War 3 broke out between the rabbi on site and the owners of the restaurant with the rabbi refusing to certify certain fish as kosher (even though they should have been.) The rabbis supervise every little detail. From making sure you have washed your hands, to the type of knife you use etc. Obviously, like with anything else, there must be ones that cheat and who allow businessmen short cuts for a schmear.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - Aside from food, do you really think they stoned people to death etc. Do you think any of it is true, or do you think it is all made up?

"If there is anybody with an Islamic background or even some basic Islamic education I'd love to see mention made of an equivalent source where we could all go to do some learning about Halal."

Fat Guy - Yeah where's Sweetpea when we really need her.

[Jinmyo]

Oh. So it's from "kind of around" the shoulder and up. Gotcha.

[Fat Guy]

Jin: It's just a question of the sciatic nerve, that's all. There's no sciatic nerve in the rib section, so it's never problematic.

Plotnicki: My understanding is that Glatt (literally "smooth") simply refers to the lungs of the animal being free of lesions, and is not synonymous with additional supervision.

http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5760wint.../legal-ease.pdf

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - We are speaking about two different things. "Glatt" might very well mean smooth, and as the article states, all lamb and chickens etc. are glatt kosher. But I am describing a butcher shop that describes itself as only selling Glatt Kosher food and what that means in the orthodox community. As a practical matter it is as I stated and I know this from my father's business, where he toyed with the idea of it becoming Glatt. He never did it because he decided the location wasn't right for that customer base but, places like Brach's on Main Street in Flushing and Little Neck Meats (who was my father's old partner) have more than one rabbi on staff full time to ensure that everything is perfect.

This issue came up last week when my wife and I were paying a shiva call. Even though the mourner wasn't extremely orthodox, he had lots of family that were. So sliced fruit platters were sent up from Park East Butchers that were sealed in plastic and had a rabbinical seal on it. They must have a rabbi on staff who supervises the preparation and places the seal on the platter. Then anyone who is orthodox could check the seal and break it themselves to ensure that what they ate was kosher. But some people sent fruit baskets (like me) which didn't have a seal and the orthodox who were visiting wouldn't eat that fruit. Remember, we are talking about fruit not meat.

So the daughter of the mouner, who goes to school with my kids asks her father, is there such a thing as non-kosher fruit? And the answer is, no all fruit is kosher. But the way it is prepared might not be. For example, if someone used a knife to cut non-kosher cheese to slice the fruit, that would contaminate it. So "Glatt Kosher" has come to mean *under rabbinical supervision* at every point along the way. This is why when you are on airplanes, or are at a non-kosher wedding where people have orthodox family and special meals are brought in for them, the plates have a rabbinical seal on them that the diner himself can break to be assured of certification.

[LaNiña]

Jin - Because only the shoulder and up on the calf is kosher. That is why rib steak, or mush steak as they call it is the big ticket in kosher restaurants. Fat Guy might be right about the sciatic nerve thing, but I never heard that before. But for some reason, the calf's feet are kosher as well and there is a dish based on cooking them and then chilling them in their own aspic.

Sandra - You are 100% correct. It's the same with not being able to drive on Saturdays. It assured that a congregation lived within walking distance of the synagogue, butcher etc. and it greatly increased the odds of Jewish boys and girls marrying each other.

I think that's only one of the reasons. Say what you will, the kosher laws ALSO came into existence because of lack of refrigeration, disease, etc.

[LaNiña]

All fruit is not always kosher. There are those who observe the rules about 7 years - eating fruits from fields that are rested every 7 years...from the story of Joseph, if you recall.

[Fat Guy]

In terms of halal, I've looked around at a few Web sites that seem representative and this is what I've found. I've only skimmed, so I apologize if there's blatantly incorrect information in any of them.

Halal Explorer

http://www.halalexplorer.com/guide.asp

Halal Helpline

http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~waleed/isoc/hh/

Some scriptural analysis

http://www.submission.org/halal-meat.html

Still, I'd prefer to hear about this from a real person who knows something.