A Winter Sous Vide Odyssey

[jsolomon]

What I do, and all that I expect from anyone peddling food to me is practice good hygiene (personal and industrial). Keep your work surfaces clean. Keep your foodstuffs at the proper temperatures and away from gross filth. And, avoid cross-contamination.

The problem is that when you start getting beyond keeping your work surfaces clean, dry, and at the proper temperature (ditto your foodstuffs), you start playing the game of diminishing returns. Since I don't have anything in the sous vide cooker realm currently, I don't have a whole lot of general information to pass along. I have gross generalities, and curiosities (like E. histolytica lifestyles, or Thermophillus and Thermococcus lifestyles).

If I had a sous vide cooker? I'd probably make some rosemary short ribs like you did and see if I could culture anything from them. But without further work, I can't give a whole lot of information, because I don't have it at my fingertips.

So, to answer your question, yes, you can, and the lower your sous vide temperature, the more appropriate it will be, especially for vegetables and fruits given the nature of their storage and transportation. A quick rinse in a large amount of acidulated water or quaternary ammonia containing water and then a rinse in clear water will definitely reduce your chance. But, so will a quick rinse in clear water. Both will help. The difference in how much they will help, I can't give you specifics on.

[slkinsey]

I'd imagine that spices could carry some evil bugs. These come from all over the world and are not steralized. They are grown with unknown surroundings and dried in the open air. Maybe it is a good idea steralize spices before they go low and slow. hmm.

Spices do carry all kinds of nasty things. Which is why they are irradiated.

[pounce]

jsolomon, if you want to do experiments for the group and the only thing limiting you is water bath and vacuum equipment I'd be more than willing to help.

Where are you located? If you are near Chicago I could lend you my setup for a week or two. If you are located somewhere else maybe a few of us can get together and fund some experiements by donating a circ bath or the like.

BTW: GSE concentrate is also very acidic. I think something like 2.2. When I washed my salad and produce with this stuff in India I would let it soak in a bowl for maybe 15 minutes. I'd use maybe a half teaspoon to a quart of water. Not sure if it was truely helping, but as you pointed out just washing things goes a long way.

I'm really curious about picking things up from dried spices. I know that some US spice companies use fumagation and irridiation on spices, but imported spices ...who knows. I'm interested in seeing what a person could find on spices that wouldn't be killed during the cooking process.

Applogies to BryanZ for taking your thread off course a bit. Maybe we can split off some posts into a new thread on Sous Vide food safety considerations?

Edited December 28, 2005 by pounce (log)

[BryanZ]

No worries, it's all very interesting stuff. I've got a rack of lamb in the bath now

Edited December 28, 2005 by BryanZ (log)

[BryanZ]

My duck breast sous vide was quite excellent. The even pink coloring of the duck and smooth texture was totally different than the pan roasted duck breast I usually make.

I took the skin and fat off the breast, seasoned with just salt, and vacuumed.

I cooked at 55C for about 4 hours. Out of the bag it was very firm and somewhat gray and unappetizing.

I seared it for about 1.5 minutes after reseasoning with salt and pepper in some of the duck fat I had rendered out of the skin. The crust was great, and the evenly pink interior was perfect.

Sliced thinly and served with slivers of crisp duck skin and a berry ginger and balsamic sauce. The duck was excellent without the sauce, but the sweetness of the berries didn't hurt either.

This was my best experiment yet.

[BryanZ]

When I first took my rack of lamb out of the package I bought it in it had a stronger "lamby" smell than other racks I had worked with before. In my limited experience, I have found that sous vide tends to concentrate flavors. With this in mind, I was worried about this lamb experiment. I also had it in the bath longer than I anticipated (was watching Brokeback Mountain) and didn't take it out until about a 6.5 hour soak. Everything could have gone wrong--offensive lamb odor, too mushy--but thankfully it didn't. This was definitely the most tender lamb I've had in my life.

Again, simply seasoned with just salt, then vacuumed.

Cut in half after 6.5 hours at 55C. The color and texture was fantastic.

Reseasoned with salt and pepper, then added a crust of olive oil, toasted breadcrumbs, thyme, and rosemary. Put this under the broiler for a couple minutes then served with baby bok choy and mushrooms. Again, the lamb was amazing.

[ChefCrash]

Hi Bryan

I have a son your age who loves to eat my cooking but can't fry an egg. I'm fascinated by this thread, the work of Nathan, yours and the others.

These are some great looking Lamb chops. My questions are:

When you sous vide, do you use less salt than if you were to use conventional cooking methods?

What do you think sous vide would do for an "eye of round" roast, which is a muscle with no fat to mention?

Thanks.

[atlanta cook]

Hi Bryan

I have a son your age who loves to eat my cooking but can't fry an egg. I'm fascinated by this thread, the work of Nathan, yours and the others.

These are some great looking Lamb chops. My questions are:

When you sous vide, do you use less salt than if you were to use conventional cooking methods?

What do you think sous vide would do for an "eye of round" roast, which is a muscle with no fat to mention?

Thanks.

←

chefcrash,

I have an eye of the round that will go in my water bath tomorrow night @ 135 for about 8 hrs, I will let you know how it turns out- I am excited about that particular cut because it is just one muscle group... I have steaks of a rib in right now and will be taking them out in the morning...

[BryanZ]

Hi Bryan

I have a son your age who loves to eat my cooking but can't fry an egg. I'm fascinated by this thread, the work of Nathan, yours and the others.

These are some great looking Lamb chops. My questions are:

When you sous vide, do you use less salt than if you were to use conventional cooking methods?

What do you think sous vide would do for an "eye of round" roast, which is a muscle with no fat to mention?

Thanks.

←

For my first couple experiments I was seasoning gingerly, something I usually never do. I was afraid that the "flavor concentration" effect that others had spoken about in regards to herbs, wine, etc in vacuum bags would be offensive. I quickly found, however, that a normal amount of salt works wonderfully during the initial bath cooking. When it's out of the bag I usually reseason (ie more salt, some pepper, any other herbs) if I'm going to finish it off in a pan, under a broiler, or with a torch.

The eye round sounds very interesting. The fact that it's pretty much devoid of fat makes me wonder if the sous vide process will actualy tenderize it. So far I've really only done "luxury ingredients" or things that are trendy among the foodie set. I think I should give a more humble piece of meat a try. I'm excited to see what atlanta cook comes up with.

[nathanm]

Salt can generally be used in the same concentration or amount as you would normally use it. Herbs and other seasonings are the ones you need to use in lower concentrations.

The reason is simple. Salt does not evaporate or disperse. Herbs, on the other hand, often rely on volitile flavor compounds. In normal cooking these tend to disperse into the air and evaporate (which is why the kitchen smells of garlic if you are cooking garlic in an open pan). These volitiles cannot escape in sous vide, so they tend to have a stronger effect on the food.

I have tried eye of round - it works fine. It is not my favorite cut of beef. When I was doing the experiments to calibrate the temperature & time tables I used eye of round because it is a very uniform piece of meat.

[BryanZ]

And it's cheap, too.

[nathanm]

Yes, but there are other cheap cuts of beef that I think are better - flat iron steak, for example.

[rxrfrx]

Round wins the cheap protein contest around here... you can often get a round roast for $0.85/lb around here. If you could sous vide that to something that's even mostly edible, that would be fantastic. (Note: if you're about to say that the sous vide equipment costs more than you're saving in meat... shut up)

[Chris Amirault]

Great stuff, Bryan. Over in the other thread you mentioned you chose the Foodsaver v1205 because of the extended vacuum and instant seal. Are you still glad you made that decision? What do those features provide?

[BryanZ]

Great stuff, Bryan. Over in the other thread you mentioned you chose the Foodsaver v1205 because of the extended vacuum and instant seal. Are you still glad you made that decision? What do those features provide?

←

In retrospect I'm not sure how much the extra features add in terms of sous vide cooking. The instant seal is pretty useful if you find that the pump is suking an unexpected amount of liquid. I haven't really used the extended vacuum feature yet--to be honest I haven't even tried it and don't exactly know how it works--but perhaps I'll run some tests for those of us not able to afford vacuum chambers.

I definitely like that I have the "extended seal" feature. This is featured on most of the higher models and is definitely necessary. When sealing meats or anything with even a slight amount of liquid you want that longer seal time to ensure a good seal.

[BryanZ]

Lobster tail sous vide was the project of the evening, among other, non sous vide, offerings. Here, I'll focus on the lobster.

I found it to be quite good. Very firm, perhaps a smidge chewy, but not at all objectionable. Similar to scallops and shrimp sous vide, the firm texture might be strange to some, but I find it more pure than a strirated, stringy piece of tail meat. I also discovered that searing off the lobster meat after the sous vide cooking gives a more "traditional" lobster texture while still maintaining some of that smooth, firm texture that the sous vide process contributed.

This was about an 11oz lobster tail. It was of good, but not great quality--firm and full of dense meat but not necessarily the sweetest. I doused it with boiling water and let it sit a few minutes before prying off the shell. I used the shells to make a lemongrass infused lobster stock.

Seasoned liberally with salt (I found I would need even more salt than expected after the bathing) and cut in half. I added black truffle butter to one of the bags and plain, unsalted butter to the other.

Sliced the tail into medallions and plated with porcini mushrooms and served over pasta. I cooked the penne as one would a basic risotto, adding ladlefuls of stock while constantly the stirring. The pasta was infused with a hint of lobster essence from the stock I had made and was just a little creamy. The lobster from the truffle butter bag had just the right amount of truffle flavor and aroma.

As a whole it was a great dish. If I was serving lobster sous vide to a crowd, however, I would probably give the pieces a quick sear in some butter to round out the richness of flavor and add a more familiar texture.

I'll be taking a day off from experimenting tomorrow since I'll be going to Alinea tomorrow for some 24-course chef's tour action

[harryotto]

Bryan: I did a Salmon 3 ways as a special at one of the restaurants I “consult chef” in. Salmon Sous Vide, Salmon Confit & Blackened (on a searing skillet). When I put my salmon in a pouch, it goes in with nothing.

I do 113F with a Precision Brand Water Bath and top it off with parsley oil (parsley & Spanish unfiltered EVOO in a blender) and a touch of Mother of Salt & White Pepper.

When I do a Salmon Salad, the Sous Vide Salmon is placed over EVOO’d baby arugula with the same EVOO and Saba reduced Vinegar. No real need to spice up fish prior to placing in the bag.

Do you have any other temps for fish & vegetables?

You started a real nice post here.

[BryanZ]

113F seems to be the most commonly used temp. Some people suggest 103F for salmon, making it even more "sashimi-like", but personally I like the smooth flaking that the 113F cooking provides. I found the 103F to be even a little foreign to me--not quite raw but certainly not cooked.

As for vegetables, I honestly haven't tried anything yet. nathanm has suggested 180F+, but vegetables sous vide isn't as widely discussed in most sous vide threads.

[BryanZ]

The eye round roast sous vide was a moderate success. The cooking process took what was a pretty poor and boring cut of meat and turned it into something respectable. Sous vide can't turn eye round into tenderloin, but the finished product was akin to a nice piece of sandwich-style roast beef.

I cooked it at 56C for about 14-15 hours. The meat was tender but not falling apart. The color, as usual, was even and pleasing. Applications like this show how sous vide isn't only for luxury items and can be used for more humble foodstuffs.

Seasoned liberally with salt and pepper and browned lightly on all sides. I added 1/3 of a clove of garlic to the bag before vacuuming. This little bit of garlic gave the beef a noticeable but pleasant perfuming. I also think that the browning before hand gave the meat a certain richness that was not present when I cooked my short ribs sous vide without pre-browning.

Sliced thinly, this would go great on a crusty baugette.

[nathanm]

The best cuts of meat to improve with long sous vide cooking are cuts which have lots of flavor, but normally are tough due to having too much collagen. Short ribs are an example; flat iron steak is another. These cuts tend to be served braised well done via normal cooking in order to tenderize by converting collagen into gelatin. With sous vide you can in effect "braise" them at much lower temperature so they can be medium rare.

Other tough but flavorful cuts are the ones to look at for doing this.

The problem with eye of round is that it doesn't have much going for it in flavor (or fat content). It does not have a lot of collagen either. Sous vide can improve it to some degree, but can't overcome the inherent limitations.

[Chris Amirault]

I think I read somewhere that some companies in the cold cut industry have been using sous vide round for "roast beef," because of its consistent production of that rich beefy red.

[ChefCrash]

Nice looking roast Bryan.

Was there liquid in the bag upon taking it out of the bath?

Did you let it cool in the bag? And did you loose any juice as you sliced the roast?

Thanks for conducting the experiment.

[ChefCrash]

The problem with eye of round is that it doesn't have much going for it in flavor (or fat content).  It does not have a lot of collagen either.  Sous vide can improve it to some degree, but can't overcome the inherent limitations.

←

So collagen is mostly present in joints? i.e. cartilage and bone?

[BryanZ]

Nice looking roast Bryan.

Was there liquid in the bag upon taking it out of the bath?

Did you let it cool in the bag? And did you loose any juice as you sliced the roast?

Thanks for conducting the experiment.

←

In nearly all sous vide meat cooking there will be excess liquid in the bag. I do not let it cool in the bag for more than a couple minutes, ie when I'm preparing other sides, garnishes, etc. Normally you don't lose much juice at all during slicing. In this case, however, I chilled the roast before slicing because I knew I would be using it for sandwiches and other cold applications, so there was no liquid lost at all during slicing. The eye round still stayed relatively moist and buttery, considering the cut of the meat.

[BryanZ]

Tonight was beef tenderloing sous vide. I got a pretty nice looking USDA prime tenderloin steak and dry aged it in my fridge for about 36 hours just until it started to change color and get a little bit "beefier".

Seasoned liberally with salt and vacuumed (I forgot to pre-brown like I did with the eye round). Then cooked for about 3 hours at 54C.

Coated with pepper and a little more salt and seared to form a light crust. I served it sliced thinly with a herb garlic vinegarette, analagous to a "tataki" style preparation in Japanese cuisine. I loved the color on this and found it to be superlatively tender. You don't really get the char that you can get on a broiled or grilled steak, but this was much more subtle.

It was very interesting to watch the color change on the beef once sliced. As soon as a cut edge was exposed to the air, it almost immediately turned a much more vibrant red. I am led to believe that this is because the meat is oxygen starved under vacuum and the hemo/myoglobin oxidates and gives the red color once exposed to air.