Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Where's the Kobe Beef?


banco

Recommended Posts

From Today's Washington Post: "Under an agreement announced in Hong Kong, the United States and Japan will resume purchasing beef from each other... American consumers will be able to buy premium Kobe beef with no restrictions..."

Full article here

I'd like to hear what chefs and other food professionals think of this development, and if it might lead them to substitute Kobe beef for the "Wagyu" beef and other domestic imitations that have become so trendy on menus lately.

Don’t you have a machine that puts food into the mouth and pushes it down?

--Nikita Khrushchev to Richard Nixon during the "Kitchen Debate" in Moscow, 1959

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I buy Australian Wagyu beef from a local butcher occasionally and have found it to be very good (I usually get ribeye steaks).

The butcher says that even if he could get genuine Kobe he believes the cost would be prohibitive for all but the wealthiest customers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The butcher says that even if he could get genuine Kobe he believes the cost would be prohibitive for all but the wealthiest customers.

Yes, but I think that perhaps the price will come down if US-Japanese trade in beef becomes less restrictive as the article says.

Don’t you have a machine that puts food into the mouth and pushes it down?

--Nikita Khrushchev to Richard Nixon during the "Kitchen Debate" in Moscow, 1959

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read somewhere that a good deal of the Kobe/Wagyu beef sold in Japan is actually raised in the US, since it is more cost-efficient. Some website described the travails of a guy who tried to order said beef, but couldn't even do it, even if he bought an entire animal. The farmers would only fill orders that amounted to a certain number of carcasses.

From that, it would seem that the Japanese ban on beef import from the US would pretty much cripple these farmers.

Is this stuff not true? Or has anyone heard anything about this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read somewhere that a good deal of the Kobe/Wagyu beef sold in Japan is actually raised in the US, since it is more cost-efficient. Some website described the travails of a guy who tried to order said beef, but couldn't even do it, even if he bought an entire animal. The farmers would only fill orders that amounted to a certain number of carcasses.

From that, it would seem that the Japanese ban on beef import from the US would pretty much cripple these farmers.

Is this stuff not true? Or has anyone heard anything about this?

not true... Kobe beef, REAL Kobe beef is far superior to what passes as Waygu/Kobe here. The beef produced here is a great product, but pales in comparison. By a mile.

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

—George W. Bush in Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

not true...  Kobe beef, REAL Kobe beef is far superior to what passes as Wagyu/Kobe here.  The beef produced here is a great product, but pales in comparison.  By a mile.

Well okay, but would you care to comment on this link, please? The article's author seems pretty knowledgeable.

I'm not concerned whether authentic Japanese Kobe beef is better than non-Kobe Wagyu beef -- I'm just curious if American bred Wagyu was/is shipped to Japan. The article was written in '98, and things have changed since then -- you can get Wagyu beef here now. The author, Tanith Tyrr, finally managed to find a small, independent producer who sold her an entire steer, after having banged her head on a wall, speaking to a number of Wagyu farmers who were pretty evasive about the fact that they shipped their stuff to Japan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waygu cattle are raised in the United States in California and shipped LIVE to Japan for finishing in the prefecture of Kobe and are then correctly sold as Kobe beef. They ARE NOT processed in the US and sent to Japan. I have purchased Waygu from several sources including Australian and although very good beef, I assure you that it in no way compares to real Kobe beef. The marbleing of Kobe beef is akin to top grade O-Toro, almost solid fat. There is no reason to believe that the price will drop if sold in the US. The price to finish in Kobe will be the same and with the exchange rate, the end product over here will be very high.-Dick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

not true...  Kobe beef, REAL Kobe beef is far superior to what passes as Wagyu/Kobe here.  The beef produced here is a great product, but pales in comparison.  By a mile.

Well okay, but would you care to comment on this link, please? The article's author seems pretty knowledgeable.

I'm not concerned whether authentic Japanese Kobe beef is better than non-Kobe Wagyu beef -- I'm just curious if American bred Wagyu was/is shipped to Japan. The article was written in '98, and things have changed since then -- you can get Wagyu beef here now. The author, Tanith Tyrr, finally managed to find a small, independent producer who sold her an entire steer, after having banged her head on a wall, speaking to a number of Wagyu farmers who were pretty evasive about the fact that they shipped their stuff to Japan.

I think the point that sdelgato was trying to make is that the Wagyu/"Kobe" beef served in most restaurants in this country is not nearly as good as what is in Japan. From numerous personal experiences I can 100% vouch for this fact. Wagyu beef in Japan is unlike most anything in this country and is, as stated in the above article, closer to that of high quality toro or a meaty foie gras. It seems to me that anything even remotely close to the Wagyu lineage is automatically branded as "Kobe beef" in this country. That is entirely untrue, and it's a shame that many in this country have been misled into thinking that they're consuming legitimate Kobe beef.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Opening the market will be good for all. American farmers will regain access to an important market and chefs will be able to buy real "Kobe". The ban has certainly not hurt domestic Wagyu producers as demand for this fine product has accelerated dramatically and they command a super premium price for their beef.

American Wagyu "Kobe style" beef may be the best beef available in America right now. It's marbling surpasses even the best prime giving it fabulous beefy flavor and tenderness if that's what you're looking for. Australian Wagyu is also very good. However, neither is a match for real "Kobe" or the other equally exquisite but lesser known "grand crus" of Japanese beef. The marbling in their highest grades is simply unbelievable, there is more fat than meat, it's the "toro" of beef. For that reason, IMO, it is really not the best choice to grill as a big steak. It lends itself to more stylish preparations often in thin slices, raw or quickly seared. It will be very very expensive but good to have available again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BryanZ makes another excellent point regarding truth in menus. Too many chefs are misleading their patrons into thinking they're getting real Kobe when they're not. If you're serving American Wagyu "Kobe style" beef, which is a fine product in itself, your menu should say so. Sadly, truth in menus appears to be in decline these days.

Edited by Ken (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well okay, but would you care to comment on this link, please? The article's author seems pretty knowledgeable.

please note that this article was written in 1998. the ban was put in place in 2002. as far as i know, it is against the law to transport beef (either parts or cattle) between Japan and the US ... until the new law takes effect.

i'm afraid this new decision will mean higher prices, not lower. there is very little wagyu grown in the us--less than 10% of the Prime slaughter. because it sells for so much less than Japanese Wagyu (japan being a country almost ideally UNsuited for the growing of cattle), i'm sure american beef will be very popular over there. when there is an increased demand for a finite supply ... well, you don't have to be paul krugman to figure it out.

as for getting real kobe (or other Japanese "cru" beef) here ... sure, if you can afford it. it is wildly expensive in japan already--$100 a pound and way more. Those prices, too, will only go up with an increased market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i'm sure american beef will be very popular over there. when there is an increased demand for a finite supply ... well, you don't have to be paul krugman to figure it out.

I really hope this turns out to be the case, but the Japanese don't seem to be excited about the lifting of the ban. I have been watching the (Japanese) news and all the polls seem to show that about 70% of Japanese people will still not eat the American beef. Here is one Kyodo poll.

On the news they do random on the street interviews and people say they are too scared to eat American beef and probably would not buy it. Even supermarkets say they probably would not sell it or bring in very small amounts and see how it goes. Even stores like Sukiya (similar to Yoshinoya) say they will not go back to American beef as they don't feel the inspections in American slaughter houses are up to par.

and just for refernce the Japanese have just found their 21st BSE infected cow... :hmmm:

Kristin Wagner, aka "torakris"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waygu cattle are raised in the United States in California and shipped LIVE to Japan for finishing in the prefecture of Kobe and are then correctly sold as Kobe beef. They ARE NOT processed in the US and sent to Japan...

Ah thanks, budrichard! That clears a few things up.

Now, if some Kobe cattle is raised in California, shipped live to Japan and finished in Kobe, I obviously expect that some is also raised entirely in Kobe, right?

Is any distinction made in Japan between them?

And how big a percentage of Kobe production did the California-raised cattle amount for (when it was still being done)?

I expect that it must have been a horrendous shock for these California Wagyu producers when the ban went into effect. Did "Kobe beef" suddenly appear on American menu because of the Japanese ban import?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is what I wrote on beef for the daily Nihongo a while back:

牛肉 gyuniku (gyoo-nee-koo)

beef (牛meaning cow 肉 meaning meat)

when referring to the animal, cow it is called ushi 牛

In Japan there are 3main types of beef:

和牛 wagyu

wagyu has many types, the most famous of which is Kobe. Wagyu refers to specific breeds of beef cattle that are born and raised in Japan, these are the "brand name" cows are can be quite expensive. These are almost exclusively of the "black hair" breed that has been in Japan since......well since cows have been in Japan!

国産 kokusan

Kokusan basically covers any other cows in Japan that are not wagyu (not all Japanese cows are wagyu!) Although kokusan means Japan born (koku meaning country, referring to Japan in this case and san from the verb umu which meand to give birth), it can also refer to cows that were born in a different country , brought to Japan and then slaughtered. Kokusan are usually of the Holstein breed (milk cattle rather then beef cattle).

輸入牛yunyugyu

Yunyu means import, and this is imported beef. Beef that has been slaughtered in a different country and then brought to Japan, the package will always indicate the country of origin, most like the US or Australia.

How to know if you are eating wagyu? Wagyu will always have a name! whether it is the breed of the cow or the name of the town it came from.

If you really want to be sure you have true wagyu,ask for its birth certificate! Wagyu in Japan all have a birth certificate that lists parents and grandparents as well, you can also see the bimon or nose print. Apparently the tip of a cows nose is similar to a human finger print int hat no two are the same....

A wagyu birth certificate and bimon

Kristin Wagner, aka "torakris"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why I love Japan...

If you really want to be sure you have true wagyu,ask for its birth certificate! Wagyu in Japan all have a birth certificate that lists parents and grandparents as well, you can also see the bimon or nose print. Apparently the tip of a cows nose is similar to a human finger print int hat no two are the same....

A wagyu birth certificate and bimon

Thanks, torakris, for this very informative post.

Don’t you have a machine that puts food into the mouth and pushes it down?

--Nikita Khrushchev to Richard Nixon during the "Kitchen Debate" in Moscow, 1959

Link to comment
Share on other sites

torakris, where in those three classifications would the California-riased wagyu that budrichard mentioned, belong? (Wagyu cattle raised in California, then shipped live to Japan, finished there and sold as Kobe beef, that is.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

torakris, where in those three classifications would the California-riased wagyu that budrichard mentioned, belong? (Wagyu cattle raised in California, then shipped live to Japan, finished there and sold as Kobe beef, that is.)

In Japan in order for beef to be labled wagyu it MUST be a fullblood wagyu with full blood wagyu parents and so on down the line. There are four kinds of wagyu cattle in Japan:

kuroge - black haired (these account for 90% of all wagyu and this is where the "famous" ones like Kobe, Matsuzaka and Omi fall)

akage - red haired

tankaku - short horn

mukaku - no horn

Almost every wagyu cattle raised outside of Japan is actually an F1 (a cross of a full blood wagyu and another cattle) or F2 (a cross of an F1 and another cattle) cattle. More information on F1 and F2 cattle can be found here.

These cattle are also grown in Japan but they ARE NOT wagyu. So when these cattle are imported into Japan, fed for a couple months and then slaughtered they will be labeled as kokusan (#2 on my descriptions in my previous post). They may be labeled as a wagyu cross and then will sell for a bit more money, other sellers can get a little sneaky.

A black haired Japanese wagyu in will be written with 4 characters 黒毛和牛 (kurogewagyu).

Kuro means black, ge (ke) means hair, wa refers to Japan (Japanese) and gyu is cow. You may occasionally see beef labeled as 黒毛牛 (kurogegyu) with the wa missing, this is perfectly legitimate at is simply means black haired cow which is what it is. On a label though, it can be easy to mistake it for true black haired wagyu especially if you are in a hurry or unaware of the difference.

In Japan true wagyu is also graded with 15 different ranks. The ranks are a combination of the letters A, B and C and the numbers 1 to 5. A5 is the highest and C1 is the lowest. To see pictures of the different grades take a look here. (scroll to the middle of the page)

Kristin Wagner, aka "torakris"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent, -- great information. Thanks so much! I guess Tanith Tyrr's article was not as well researched as I thought...

The F1 and F2 website wouldn't load for me, but I'll look around.

You say almost every cattle raised outside Japan is F1 or F2, do you know of any instances; where real, full-bloodline wagyu has been raised outside Japan?

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

torakris, where in those three classifications would the California-riased wagyu that budrichard mentioned, belong? (Wagyu cattle raised in California, then shipped live to Japan, finished there and sold as Kobe beef, that is.)

grub, see my earlier post. i think the article budrichard was referring to is seriously out of date. as far as i know (and i did a big piece on this a couple of months ago), it is illegal for cattle to be moved from the us to japan, though this was certainly the mode pre 2002. in fact, the biggest raiser of wagyu beef in the us, snake river farms, got its start just that way. i wouldn't be surprised if after these new changes, it becomes popular again, as it is much more economical to raise beef in the us than in japan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ordered whole tenderloins and briskets from this source before the last price increase. http://www.gamemeat.com/kobe.html

This is the Kobe Beef Association http://www.kobe-beef.com/quality.php

On the Japanese scale of 1-12 it was probabaly about a 6-7 or a little better than US Prime. The briskets were smoked. The tenderloin normally cooked.

It was a couple of year ago that I tried to purchase some Waygu animals from the source in California and was told that the produciotn went to Japan.

AS far as Japanese not eating US beef, at Mitsuwa in Chicago, US Waygu which is really low Prime sells very well among the Jpanese clientel.

I also agree that true Kobe is just too fatty to cook conventially on a grill but in small slices, seared is best, other wise you will cook all the fat out of it.-Dick

Edited by budrichard (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

AS far as Japanese not eating US beef, at Mitsuwa in Chicago, US Waygu which is really low Prime sells very well among the Jpanese clientel.

But that's not really relevant. Japanese living in America are going to have to eat American beef (pretty much whether they like it or not). In Japan, however, consumer confidence in American beef might be low (as tokaris explained), and this might make American Wagyu or any American beef unpopular.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

by the way, this website is offering what seems to me to be a pretty incredible deal for your christmas roast ... at least my christmas roast. i've placed my order, but don't know anything about them other than they are recommended on the snake river farms website. but hey, 4 to 6 pounds of wagyu prime rib for $115? whoops, i ordereed that a couple of weeks ago. just checked the site and the current offer is a strip loin (boneless) 4-5 pounds for $169. still seems like a pretty good deal.

uptown prime meats

Edited by russ parsons (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

AS far as Japanese not eating US beef, at Mitsuwa in Chicago, US Waygu which is really low Prime sells very well among the Jpanese clientel.

actually, according to the meat scientists i talked to, good american wagyu is prime plus. there is, of course, a wide range of quality and there might be some lesser stuff out there. prime carcasses average about 8% marbling while most wagyu are 10-12% and some even go up to 20%. on the 1-12 marbling scale, prime is about 4, while good american wagyu runs 6-9 (and the great stuff from snake river ranch in australia goes 9-12).

this really is a remarkable product, i think. even the lean cuts i bought had great flavor--tri tip and even chuck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...