To be (Chinese), or Not to be (Chinese)

[muichoi]

I see your point, Saluki, but if you follow his recipes you end up with an unappetising mess. If you're a professional cookery writer, that's not doing your job properly.

[jo-mel]

I see your point, Saluki, but if you follow his recipes you end up with an unappetising mess. If you're a professional cookery writer, that's not doing your job properly.

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Ken Hom's books may not appeal to purists, but there are those who want a Chinese flavor without all the fuss.

I once was asked to do a demonstration/lunch for a group of elderly church women. This was when supermarkets carried only La Choy stuff, but that is what they wanted -- nothing they couldn't find in the local supermarket. They got it! Hamburg with peas / Chicken with Plum Sauce (from the jam section) / Moo Gu Gai Pan as plain as could be, and lo mein with spaghetti. They were delighted!!!! But otherwise, the techniques were Chinese and the flavor was almost completely Chinese.

It's not my cup of Gunpowder tea, but it does suit some people. If he can sell books, I say go for it. I know some people in my cooking classes would be delighted with it. AAARRGGHHHHH!

[saluki]

I see your point, Saluki, but if you follow his recipes you end up with an unappetising mess. If you're a professional cookery writer, that's not doing your job properly.

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Ken Hom's books may not appeal to purists, but there are those who want a Chinese flavor without all the fuss.

I once was asked to do a demonstration/lunch for a group of elderly church women. This was when supermarkets carried only La Choy stuff, but that is what they wanted -- nothing they couldn't find in the local supermarket. They got it! Hamburg with peas / Chicken with Plum Sauce (from the jam section) / Moo Gu Gai Pan as plain as could be, and lo mein with spaghetti. They were delighted!!!! But otherwise, the techniques were Chinese and the flavor was almost completely Chinese.

It's not my cup of Gunpowder tea, but it does suit some people. If he can sell books, I say go for it. I know some people in my cooking classes would be delighted with it. AAARRGGHHHHH!

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You won't get any argument from me that these recipes leave something to be desired. He is appealing to a certain audience.

But lets say he were doing something wonderful. You are still left with the same argument. Is it Chinese?

I think you need someone worth considering; where the quality of the finished

product is not at issue.

Take the same question and ask it of Susanna Foo; certainly it is fusion but is it Chinese? Can it be Fusion and still be considered Chinese. If the sensibilities are there, and the ingredients are there; But they are not classical recipes. She says being Chinese defines how she thinks about food, but her food is also a personal vision. Can it be a different approach and still be Chinese?

[Ben Hong]

Wow, why is poor Old Ken Hom taking such a slagging? To my mind he is doing alright for himself as he has sold a gazillion cookbooks. I really and truly don't think that Ken is targetting the experienced cook or the golden-palated "experts" on this site. I am only envious because he has created a career catering to the folks who want to dabble in Chinese cooking. Even if Ken can't cook a lick, my old Canadian toque is off to him.

[Big Bunny]

In the late 80's Ken Hom wrote "Fragrant Harbor Taste: The New Chinese Cooking of Hong Kong" and "Ken Hom's East Meets West Cuisine: An American Chef Redefines the Food Styles of Two Cultures."

I love to cook and eat Chinese food - try to do so as "authentically" as possible.

Mr. Hom's "Hong Kong" book shows that all sorts of ideas can find their way into Chinese kitchens, and "East meets West" takes these ideas closer to the "fusion" approaches which were popular fifteen years ago.

Ken Hom is talented, creative and articulate. He has also studied both Asian and European cuisines in depth.

As much as I love to learn all about the inner workings of Chinese farms and kitchens, I also love to see someone who understands the "inner workings" of food develop his own ideas.

BB

[jo-mel]

I had completely forgotten that Fragrant Harbor Tastes was a Ken Hom book!

I really like that one. Each recipe has a 'side bar' of information that is informative.

It is the books that go beyond just recipes that I have always liked. They have been my teachers.

[rooftop1000]

You are reminding me of this wonderful dish I used to make all the time. It usually included a random piece of meat ...a pork chop or chicken cutlet or steak, whatever looked appropriate from the supermarket salad bar, 2 packs of ramen noodles, soy sauce, chicken stock, onion, garlic and corn starch.

soak noodles in a bowl of hot water

slice meat thinly, fry with garlic in a wok and remove to a plate

fry onions and salad bar veg

add soaked noodles and sauce ingrediants and 1 seasoning packet from ramen

add meat back and thicken with cornstarch

I made this for my fiance once about 6 yrs ago he said it wasnt a real Chinese stirfry and got out his cooking class notes and made me spare ribs in black bean sauce. His dish tasted just like the restaurant version we had recently had....I hated it there too

we havent either dish again

I am going to go heat up my last scalion pancake while the spaghetti sauce cooks.

tracey

[hzrt8w]

One of the recipes is named something like "beef noodles with oyster sauce".  He boiled some noodles (which looked like spaghetti) to al dente, laid them on a plate.  He marinated a piece of what looked like London Broil steak with soy sauce, then seared it whole, and then sliced it up.  (You can see that the steak is done medium rare.)  He laid the steak slices on top of the noodles.  Then he took a spoonful of oyster sauce right from the bottle and spreaded it on top of each slice of steak.  Wow!  That defies all my training and knowledge of Chinese cooking (or Asian cooking as his book title implied).

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I find myself reading Ken Hom's book once again on this questionable recipe. And the more I got frustrated.

The title is "Pan-fried beef with oyster sauce". The noodle, while shown in the picture, is not mentioned in the recipe. You can lay your beef slices over smashed potatoes or hamburger buns for all he cares.

His method: First, marinate the beef fillets with light soy sauce, sesame oil and salt and pepper. Discard marinade. Then pan-fry the fillets for 4-8 minutes each side. Finally, slice the fillets and pour 2 tblsp of oyster sauce over each piece.

No, I did not misinterpret his recipe based on my memory when I first posted my comments.

I am sad to see such a cook who, according some posters' comments (as I have no knowledge of his previous works), has so many years of Chinese cooking experience under his belt, one who has "paid his due" and has written many Chinese cookbooks, would present such a dish and toute it as "Chinese cooking".

I just want to restate once again: using soy sauce, sesame oil, oyster sauce to cook does not automatically make a dish any more Chinese than using olive oil, tomato sauce and red wine to cook would automatically make a dish Italian.

I read some more of the other recipes in the same book. They are also disappointing though to a lesser extent.

[Ben Hong]

Ah Leung. His modus operandi was to sell cookbooks to the neophyte and perhaps, dare I say, the non-Chinese. In my restaurant days, I sold a lot of s&s spareribs, stewed garlic ribs, chop suey, not very Chinese, but ...consider the era and the audience.

[jo-mel]

Ah Leung. His modus operandi was to sell cookbooks to the neophyte and perhaps, dare I say, the non-Chinese. In my restaurant days, I sold a lot of s&s spareribs, stewed garlic ribs, chop suey, not very Chinese, but ...consider the era and the audience.

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Can Ken Hom be selling his soul?

[dmreed]

Ah Leung. His modus operandi was to sell cookbooks to the neophyte and perhaps, dare I say, the non-Chinese. In my restaurant days, I sold a lot of s&s spareribs, stewed garlic ribs, chop suey, not very Chinese, but ...consider the era and the audience.

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I have wondered about chop suey for quite a few years...I admit that I occasionally order (or make at home) and enjoy it. Multiple cookbooks say that it is not Chinese and tell several stories about its invention! I have always suspected that the Chinese might use "left-over" meat and/or vegetables and make chop suey at home.

I just recevied a 1977 (10th reprinting 1984) book by Ayako Namba and Grace Z. Chu "Chinese Cooking - An Illustrated Guide" and it has a recipe for chop suey which they also call ba-bao-cai. I have not had much luck doing a google search on "ba-bao-cai". Can anyone tell me if ba-bao-cai is indeed Chinese chop suey?

[liuzhou]

Ba Bao Cai (八宝菜 simplified , 八寶菜 traditional) means "Eight Treasure Dish" and covers a multitude of dishes which vary from restaurant to restaurant or even in the same restaurant from day to day.

I guess some might resemble Chop Suey, but none of the ones I've eaten in the last 13 years in China did.

[Ce'nedra]

Well what about adapted recipes made my ethnic Chinese families overseas? Do you consider the food Chinese?

[dmreed]

Well what about adapted recipes made my ethnic Chinese families overseas? Do you consider the food Chinese?

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IMHO one might classify Chinese cooking/recipes into 2 categories:

1) authentic from China

2) Chinese style in which Chinese techniques and ingredients are used

but then what would be authentic Chinese? before the chili pepper was introduced, before Moslem influences, before Indian influences, before European influences???

regarding adapted recipes: if your family grilled a large steak and used soy or hoisin sauce for seasoning, I might call the dish "Asian influenced" or "Asian flavored".

but if your family used "American celery" instead of "Chinese celery" in a dish that was otherwise "authentic", I would call it Chinese!

BTW when I order Chinese food at a restaurant, I always ask for and even sometimes get, "authentic Chinese food like a Chinese person would eat". I sometimes get Sichuan food spicy hot but I have to ask "on a scale of 1-10, I want spicy 15". Generally I would consider most American Chinese restaurant food to be "Americanized Chinese food"...similarly for other ethnic food, Thai, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Pilipino, etc.!

Edited May 9, 2009 by dmreed (log)

[Ce'nedra]

but if your family used "American celery" instead of "Chinese celery" in a dish that was otherwise "authentic", I would call it Chinese!

Yes that's what I'm getting at. Adaptation by means of your new environment, but still keeping to the tastes and techniques passed on in a Chinese family.

I think I would still regard that as Chinese food too.

How about dishes created by Chinese people, with all Chinese ingredients and techniques, but by those living overseas for at least a few generations? eg some Singaporean Chinese food or Malyasian Chinese (let's ignore any dishes that have had local influences)...are those dishes still authentic Chinese even if it wasn't created in its motherland?

I hear people say that in some ways, countries like Singapore and Malaysia have retained some very authentic Chinese food traditions (preserved by the people of the Chinese diaspora of course) that have been lost in China. It really makes me wonder. I think the Hokkien, Teochew and Hakka cultural realm has been fairly well preserved in many respects.

[Ce'nedra]

Oh yes, just wanted to add an eg. 'Banh mi' is a Vietnamese adaptation of French baguette is it not? But even knowing this, I still consider banh mi essentially Vietnamese.

Although to further complicate the issue, I may consider it so because French influence is very much a part of Vietnamese history and thus (ta da!) uniquely Vietnamese.

[dmreed]

Oh yes, just wanted to add an eg. 'Banh mi' is a Vietnamese adaptation of French baguette is it not? But even knowing this, I still consider banh mi essentially Vietnamese.

Although to further complicate the issue, I may consider it so because French influence is very much a part of Vietnamese history and thus (ta da!) uniquely Vietnamese.

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I would consider it to be Vietnamese as well...the particular bread/bun used is accidental (Occidental?) but the ingredients are generally Vietnamese and bread in some form is a world-wide food.

I would agree that adaptation to a new environment or to new ingredients does not necessarily change the genre of the food!

[dmreed]

Ba Bao Cai (八宝菜 simplified , 八寶菜 traditional) means "Eight Treasure Dish" and covers a multitude of dishes which vary from restaurant to restaurant or even in the same restaurant from day to day.

I guess some might resemble Chop Suey, but none of the ones I've eaten in the last 13 years in China did.

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just an update: I just searched for and looked at several Eight Jewel Vegetable recipes and, except for the lack of bean sprouts, most of them could probably be called "chop suey"! I particularly appreciated the recipe(s) which included fermented black beans!

I still suspect that, at home, many cooks end up with dishes much like chop suey!

[Ce'nedra]

I would consider it to be Vietnamese as well...the particular bread/bun used is accidental (Occidental?) but the ingredients are generally Vietnamese and bread in some form is a world-wide food.

I would agree that adaptation to a new environment or to new ingredients does not necessarily change the genre of the food!

True. Although you've forgotten the mayonnaise and pâté!

[prasantrin]

Generally I would consider most American Chinese restaurant food to be "Americanized Chinese food"...similarly for other ethnic food, Thai, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Pilipino, etc.!

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I don't know about the US, but in Canada most Filipino restaurants are frequented almost exclusively by Filipinos, so its (to me) much less "Canadianized" than other cuisines can be.

[dmreed]

I would consider it to be Vietnamese as well...the particular bread/bun used is accidental (Occidental?) but the ingredients are generally Vietnamese and bread in some form is a world-wide food.

I would agree that adaptation to a new environment or to new ingredients does not necessarily change the genre of the food!

True. Although you've forgotten the mayonnaise and pâté!

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I did forget the mayo but I don't generally care much for Vietnamese paté so I don't order it!

[dmreed]

Generally I would consider most American Chinese restaurant food to be "Americanized Chinese food"...similarly for other ethnic food, Thai, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Pilipino, etc.!

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I don't know about the US, but in Canada most Filipino restaurants are frequented almost exclusively by Filipinos, so its (to me) much less "Canadianized" than other cuisines can be.

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it might be true here too...I don't frequent Filipino restaurants as much as I do Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai and Japanese restaurants.

[Ce'nedra]

Well here in Sydney, there are quite a few very authentic (complete with the gaudy ambiance and perhaps questionable hygiene ha) Chinese restaurants; most of the realllly authentic ones are northern Chinese, Shanghainese or Xinjiang. They have some of the best noodles -chewy and handmade of course.

Also, regional Chinese has been experiencing somewhat of a 'hip' status atm. Neil Perry recently opened a regional Chinese restaurant that's been getting rave reviews. It's supposed to be Perry's own interpretation of it though, rather than purely authentic.

[Ce'nedra]

I know that raw vegetables are quite rare in Chinese cuisine, but it can't be entirely unheard of right (and yes, I'm referring to 'authentic' Chinese cuisine)?

I may be wrong, but I think I came across a few Teochew/Hokkien dishes making use of fresh lettuce or something of that sort.

[dmreed]

I know that raw vegetables are quite rare in Chinese cuisine, but it can't be entirely unheard of right (and yes, I'm referring to 'authentic' Chinese cuisine)?

I may be wrong, but I think I came across a few Teochew/Hokkien dishes making use of fresh lettuce or something of that sort.

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I also recall reading somewhere that a "special" lettuce is sometimes eaten raw but I don't recall where I read that or what region of China it was in