Let's Discuss Italian Ragu

[Pontormo]

Interesting post, Adam.

The Library of Congress has all of the works you cite, including four Italian editions of Le Cuisinier francois as well as the original French.

FYI: More accessible is a modern French edition, ed. by Jean-Louis Flandrin (? last name) and Philip & Mary Hyman in Paris: Montalba, c. 1983.

[russ parsons]

this has been a fascinating discussion of etymology. the thing i learned when working on ragus was not about words, though, but time. in reading some recipes, you might get the impression that a ragu is not that different from a tomato sauce with meat in it. but the careful construction of the ragu--cooking the vegetables, cooking off the wine, cooking off the broth (if any), cooking the paste, etc. --results in something that doesn't really have much tomato flavor at all, at least not as you'd recognize it. it's slow cooking and the way the flavors change and meld is almost alchemical. i'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

[Marco_Polo]

But there are earlier uses of the word "Ragú" in print. La cucina casereccia printed 25 times between 1807-1885 was nurmerous Italianized French cooking terms, including "Gatto" (gateau) and "Ragú" (ragout)...My original interest was trying to determine when the Italianization of the French term.

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Adam, you know Robert Burns much better than me, I'm certain. But while we're talking about etymology of ragù, it's interesting to note with what utter nationalistic disdain the "R" word drips from his immortal Scottish pen.

from Address to a Haggis

Is there that owre his French ragout       

Or olio that wad staw a sow,

Or fricassee wad make her spew

                    Wi’ perfect sconner,

Looks down wi’ sneering, scornfu’ view

                    On sic a dinner?

[Adam Balic]

Look up-thread M.

[Pontormo]

????? An insider thing for Burnsians?

Anyway, this is why I thought a separate thread on bibliography might be useful:

The following publication looks like fun since it concerns food in Naples during the fifteenth century..

Whether or not there's anything in here remotely related to a ragu, I don't know.

[Marco_Polo]

Look up-thread M.

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Oops, missed this, Adam. Should have known you'd already covered this!

[Jason Perlow]

A pseudo-ragu Bolognese I made this evening because Rachel requested pasta with meat sauce:

Started off with ground beef, onion, chopped sauteed mushrooms with sherry leftover from last night, and added San Marzano tomatoes, fresh basil, a bit of jarred Barilla marinara (yeah, I know its cheating, but for commercial sauce its not a bad way to go), milk, and a big dollop of sour cream. Salt and Pepper to taste. Simmered for about 40 mins.

Not even close to traditional in terms of meat proportions, ingredients or even method, but it was tasty for lazy man's ragu.

[Pizza Napoletana]

Adam,

I agree that there is a mis-communication, but it is mostly to how people have adapted the word ragú to other sauce that were never called in this way in Italy.

Almost all the Italian reference that you have listed (il Cuoco Galante, La cucina Casareccia (also Neapolitan writer) just confirm what i was talking about: The word Ragú is of Neapolitan origin and represent One type of sauce.

I guess you have taken those reference from an American writer whilst I do own Copies of the above two text as well as another Vincenzo Corrado' book and even a 1600's book that has the first recipe with tomatoes (most writers refer to an early, about 1780, work of V. Corrado, as to the first written reference to eating tomatoes).

About Leonardi, it is well known in Italy that he draw from many Italian regions for his recipes, but mostly from Naples, where he took the Pasta with tomatoes as well as the Ragú you have mentioned.

Carne al Ragú is still how the Beef cooked in that way is called, whilst other cheap cut are only called Ragú.

Also about your interest, you may be aware that the Neapolitan dialect is in many respects a completely different language from Italian. This may be partialy due to the many Spanish and French influences, as well as the fact that up to 1860 Italy was divided in many small kingdoms.

The use of the word Ragú in neapolitan may have been inspired by the French Ragout, but was never meant to represent the same thing. There is another example about a french word used for "Sir", that in Naples was used first to represent any People that tried to be posh (from barbers to cooks) but at the end, transformed, became the exclusive title of cooks.

So to clarify this for you, the route that Ragout became Ragú in Neapolitan is not the same for which the "Bolognese" (as it is simply known in Italy) have become Ragú Bolognese abroad (I would reserch it between the first bolognese emigrants that adapted the word Ragú of the Neapolitan sauce to theirs so to make it easier to explain to foreign people. It has nothing to do with the fact that a french ragout may have been translated in Bologna.

It is also known that Francois Pierre de La Varenne actually included (with some modifications) many Italian recipes in his book (so to talk about cross-influences). His book Italian translation is also famous as to have introduce the word "Besciamella" (Bechamel) in Italian.

Ciao

I think that there is a mis-communication in this post somewhere. So to clarify I will post some interesting things I have learnt recently (which is the useful thing about posts like this as it forces one to look up information and data).

I have not doubt that there is proud tradition of Ragú making in Naples, this is not an issue. However, my earlier response to the origins of "Ragú", was in response to these comments.

The Ragú is only neapolitan... the other sauce should only be called Bolognese.

The first record of ragú is on neapolitans cookbooks of the 19th century.

I believe that this refers to the work of Duke Ippolito Cavalcanti "La cucina teorico-practica" (published in 1837, so not that early in the 19th century), who rendered French phonetically into Italian and in later works (post-1846) used Neapolitan dilect as well. This work does indeed contain what looks like an archetypal recipe for Neapolitan Ragú. I haven't got a copy of this work, but from what I can work out this recipe is called "Carne al Ragú". As Neapolitans obviously have a very good idea of what "Ragú" should be, it would seem that there may have been a contraction to simply "Ragú".

But there are earlier uses of the word "Ragú" in print. La cucina casereccia printed 25 times between 1807-1885 was nurmerous Italianized French cooking terms, including "Gatto" (gateau) and "Ragú" (ragout).

But before this there are earlier examples. In Francesco Leonardi's "Apicio Moderno (1790) a "Ragú di Animelle" as a componant recipe of "Gatto di Lasagne alla Misgrasse".

In both of these cases there are very strong Neapolitan connections.

My original interest was trying to determine when the Italianization of the French term occured and what types of recipes this was associated with. I haven't quite managed to do this, but I did find out some an interesting bit of information that might be of interest to people with access to historical Italian language cookbooks.

Most people interested in food history know of Francois Pierre de La Varenne's "Le Cuisinier Francois", first printed in 1651 - it is one of the most, if not the most influencial, cookbooks produced in Europe. What is interesting is that it's impact in Italy was also great. Translated into Italian as "Il cuoco francese", there were at least 13 re-printings published between 1682 and 1826! An incredible record. I have facsmile of the 17th century English language version, there are many many recipes for ragout (spelt "ragoust"). In the case of the Italian labguage versions, it should be possible to pin- point the period in which ragout became ""Ragú". Also, as the first Italian language printing came out of Bologna, if the modern form of the word was in this addition it would give much evidence to suggest that the Northern-Italian version was older then the Neapolitan. Sadly, I don't have access to these books.

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Edited December 7, 2005 by Pizza Napoletana (log)

[divina]

Not stepping into the acacdemics...

but in Florence often we call ragu... SUGO, for basic meat sauce, of beef and perhaps a tiny bit of pork.

If serving a meat sauce of say wild boar or duck.. often they will simply say.. Pappardelle "su cinghiale"... ON BOAR.. not that the pasta is on the sauce...but rather on the subject of.. as in a thesis. Letting you know how seruiuslly they take their cooking!

Edited December 7, 2005 by divina (log)

[Adam Balic]

Just to clarify, I'm not American - not that there is anything wrong with that.

And nor are Alberto Capatti and Massimo Montanari as far as I know.

I'm curious that if you stress the importance of academic sources, why there is this insistance that Neapolitan Carne al Ragú is the origin of "Ragú" in print. As the oldest recipe that you have demonstrated for this dish is from 1837, which is very late and there are other earlier references that have that use the word, this is not logical.

Not that I think it that important, other then to point out that there are likely to be numerous dishes in Italy that can be called "Ragú", even if the origin of the word is likely to be an Italianization of the French word and this is likely to have occured in Naples. But, there is no evidence that I can see that the word was originally applied to the Modern dish at all. It would be great if this is so, but an 1837 reference is just far to late. Also, language is not set in stone and is determined by usage, I imagine that in the last 160 years a few more legitimate regional uses of the word "Ragú" may have evolved

I think that I might take that tact of Artusi and drop the all reference to "Ragú" and just name the Northern and Southern dishes after there cities of origin.

I must say that I have enjoyed this discussion as I have learn a great deal. I am really interested in how important Naples was in changing the food map of Italy. It does seem that many innovations (especially French and Spanish) were introduced into Italian cuisine via Naples. For instance the first centry of tomatoes is centred aroud this city. Latini's 1692 (alluded to above) recipe is the first Italian reference to a tomato recipe, it is called "Spanish Tomato Sauce" and is essentially the same as a modern salsa fresca.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

[Priscilla]

On a less lofty plane, two things.

Meat of whatever type that is too lean makes an ungood sauce, in my opinion.

And, what about storage. I think this sauce improves a great deal upon sitting, and I have kept mine in the fridge for periods of time that would scandalize some people.

I don't freeze too much in my kitchen, but I have been experimenting with freezing some of my last few batches, and I like the results--there is the melding and mellowing I'm looking for. And it is wonderful to have the results of such a long-cooked staple to hand quickly.

Any thoughts from ragumeisters would be appreciated.

[Pizza Napoletana]

We do not seam to understand each other, but I too have enjoyed discussing with you. It is funny that you are using Capatti & Montanari bibliography when I own editions of most books mentioned by them. Latini wrote indeed the first recipe of tomatoes but about 150 years earlier a botanist had alread written about the "strange custom of neapolitans of eating tomatoes"....

My insistance is that the recipe in 1839 is almost identical to the modern one with exclusion of lard (it contains the tomato conserve, onion, piece of beef and "pisto" spices-still used in my family recipe).

Again the word ragú was coined in Neapolitan and was borrowed to indicated similar sauces, but the only authentic one, I confirm, it is still the neapolitan version.

Kind regards

Marco

Just to clarify, I'm not American - not that there is anything wrong with that.

And nor are Alberto Capatti and Massimo Montanari as far as I know.

I'm curious that if you stress the importance of academic sources, why there is this insistance that Neapolitan Carne al Ragú is the origin of "Ragú" in print. As the oldest recipe that you have demonstrated for this dish is from 1837, which is very late and there are other earlier references that have that use the word, this is not logical.

Not that I think it that important, other then to point out that there are likely to be numerous dishes in Italy that can be called "Ragú", even if the origin of the word is likely to be an Italianization of the French word and this is likely to have occured in Naples. But, there is no evidence that I can see that the word was originally applied to the Modern dish at all. It would be great if this is so, but an 1837 reference is just far to late. Also, language is not set in stone and is determined by usage, I imagine that in the last 160 years a few more legitimate regional uses of the word  "Ragú" may have evolved

I think that I might take that tact of Artusi and drop the all reference to "Ragú" and just name the Northern and Southern dishes after there cities of origin.

I must say that I have enjoyed this discussion as I have learn a great deal. I am really interested in how important Naples was in changing the food map of Italy. It does seem that many innovations (especially French and Spanish) were introduced into Italian cuisine via Naples. For instance the first centry of tomatoes is centred aroud this city. Latini's 1692 (alluded to above) recipe is the first Italian reference to a tomato recipe, it is called "Spanish Tomato Sauce" and is essentially the same as a modern salsa fresca.

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[Adam Balic]

As a peace offering to my Neapolitan friends (and for the non-academics ) I made "Ragú" in a traditional manner as possible yesterday. It is settling at the moment, but I will post photographs and comments tomorrow.

On comment though, the recipe I have is based on that of Francesconi, in this recipe there are several stages where it is very important that minimal aqueous liquid is maintained. In other words a little bit of wine is added at a time and a little bit of tomato. This means that these ingredients actually fry (in a manner very similar to Indonesian "Beef Rendang") in lard - this means the temperature of sauce at this stage is above 100.C, so you get interesting flavor developments and the sauce becomes very dark.

However, in some recipes (Ada Boni and Artusi) this (at least the English translations) emphasis on low reduced aqueaous levels is not maintained, so the end product will be very different. In fact I would say that the cooking techniques are so different that they will really be different dishes.

How much variation is there in this dish in present day Neapolitan cooking?

Also, I found out that a dilect word for Ragú is "Rrau", does this sound right?

Edited December 8, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

[albiston]

Adam,

could it be that you miss-tipped the dialect word? O' rraú is the Neapolitan for "il ragu".

regarding the cooking procedure: I personally use exactly the same method JC Francesconi describes though my ingredient list is slightly different and I do try new cuts of meat from time to time. On the other hand I've seen ragu prepared with quite a lot of fluid, but then using very long cooking times, 6-8 hours and more.

[Adam Balic]

Damn, just lost a long post.

A shorter version.

The importance in the high fat:aqueous liquid v low fat:aqueous liquid is that the results will be very different. In the former you will get lots of caramelization (actually Maillard reaction I think), this gives very different flavours and colour to the dish that is simply braised in a lot of liquid, so matter how long it will be done for.

In the English translation of Francesconi's recipe there is much talk of adding a little then another little bit over a very long period and a description of how the tomato must go very dark. This is a description of the effect of the caramelization/Maillard reaction. It is a lot of effort to make the dish in this manner, so you would only do it if you wanted to get these specific secondary flavours and colour into the dish. Or if there was another benefit.

If you use the same ingredients, but braised in a lot of liquid, the dish will be very different, not matter how long you do the braise for. Unless you braise until completely dry and then allow the meat to fry in the liquid fat. This is what happens in Beef rendang the meat fries in the fat from the coconut oil, so that the meat and 'sauce' turn a very very dark brown colour. In this case the technique was develope as a way of preserving meat. I am thinking that the origins of the Neapolitan recipe may lie in a way of preserving meat also - this is just a guess though.

Also the Francesconi's recipe contains a hugh amount of fat for the volumne of the dish, so I am thinking that this must be because the dish requires a specific cooking technique. If you reduce the amout of fat to more 'brighter' dish, then you will radically alter the cooking method. I find the amount of fat a little overwhelming, so after chilling the dish I will remove most of the fat. I think that this is a better solution the reducing the amount of fat in the recipe.

Just a thought.

[Pizza Napoletana]

Adam,

The wine is only added before the tomato.

Once the conserva is in, you can add a cup at the time of hot water. We say that the ragú has to "pippare", it basically has to have constant little explosion on the surface like the magma (this is the best I can think of as a visual translation). To do so the consistency has to be quite dense, but not too much otherwise you may risk to burn it

Ciao

PS: Which tranlsation of Francesconi are you using? Schwartz or the one available on the net, I believe at ask.com?

Edited December 8, 2005 by Pizza Napoletana (log)

[Adam Balic]

OK, here is what I did.

First the meat. A kilo of braising steak in a single chunk, preserved lard, salted pork ribs (my substitute for trachiolelle), preserved pig skin (to add body like gallinelle), pancetta amd prosciutto.

The pancetta and prosciutto are cut into lardons, rolled in chopped parsely and black pepper, then used to lard the beef. The whole lot is tied into a compact bundle.

The preserved lard is processed with the onion and this is put into a pot and cooked through. The meat is then added.

A cup of red wine added bit by bit until only the fat reamains. From adding the onions to the pot to this stage is about 2 hours. The rest of themeat is now added and the lid is place on the pot.

After 2 hours, the sauce looks like this. At this stage the tomato is added. I used a preserved tomato paste I bought in Syracuse (looks like dark red/brown putty), which is my substutute for conserva. This is diluted in a little beef stock. This is added bit by bit until absorbed and it darkens in colour.

Before tomato

After tomato - this took almost 2 hours.

The meat is put back in and the whole lot is covered in broth and cooked until tender. I chilled it overnight. The fat was removed and and the sauce was reduced until it was thick and glossy.

The sauce looks like this at this stage.

Used to dress the pasta (sorry chaps, no Ziti in Scotland) it looks like this.

And the meat.

Utterly fantastic flavours, pure essence of the meats. I hope that this is some what similar to the real Neapolitan version?

Edited December 9, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

[Dan Ryan]

Nice, Adam. Like the look of the meat. I wonder if the prosciutto is really necessary with all that other good stuff in there.

Your point about the fat medium encouraging Maillard reactions is very valid I think. I definitely seemed to get some of that action going on my last ragu, and got a notably smoky/savoury taste. A good technique might be to take it from the hob to the oven, maybe cooking it at 140°C or 160°C for many many hours (adding a little moisture every now and then of course). I think Blumenthal has recommended this approach.

Anyway you've definitely put me in the mood for ragu this weekend. Pork and horse it will be.

Great pictures, as ever.

[Adam Balic]

The prosciutto cerainly adds flavour to the beef, but as I was using a great deal of other pig producs, not strictly necessary.

I thought that this was an interesting variation on the Ragu theme.

"Lard it with great lard, then roast it, and baste it with verjuice and vinegar, and a bundle of sage. After the fat is fallen, take for to fry an onion with, which being fried, you shall put under the loin with the sauce wherewith you have basted it. All being a little stoved together, lest it may harden, serve..."

Guess what book.

[Pizza Napoletana]

Adam,

great pictures and process. I am not sure you've used enough tomatoes (at least 400g of double concentrate would have been necessary), and the wonderful sauce turned out to be more like (in colour and consistency) to the other famous Neapolitan sauce, Genovese.

Also, very true about the Maillard reaction point, however about your statement "I am thinking that the origins of the Neapolitan recipe may lie in a way of preserving meat also - this is just a guess though", I would like to give you a more strong base to its origin:

The Ragú was developed by the poor and average people, certainly not in the kitchen of the riches. To those people only cheap cut of meat were available, the one full of connective tissue (such as silverside or top rump). Those cuts, as you may well know, need a long slow cooking so that the "tendons" and fat can gelatinize and produce a soft, juicy meat that melt in the mouth. So more then preserving, this way of cooking was necessary to obtain a succulent piece of meat from a cheap cut.

Ciao

[Adam Balic]

Yes I was unsure of the tomato. How much triple concentrate tomato paste would you use?

[Pizza Napoletana]

Adam,

I do not know what a triple concentrate looks like. However, as we apparently live both in UK, I can talk about few brands which are ready available. Here in London, for example, is quite easy to find at any corner shop the concentrate by De Rica and Supercirio (both produced by Cirio group) which is more watery then the first and a Sainsbury double concentrate. I always use 400g of these (Cirio, De rica and Sainsbury) with no difference in the final result.

Ciao

[Adam Balic]

Now I know what you mean. I would haved used an equivalent more then this as it happens, which makes me think that I need to cook the tomato in the lard for a longer period before adding the broth. Cheers.

[Scarpetta]

Great thread. Of course, we could talk about ragù indefinitely. Marco Guarnaschelli Gotti in his excellent Grande Enciclopedia Illustrata della Gastronomia lists seven different ones: abbruzzese, barese, bolognese, napoletano, potentino, romagnolo and sardo.

It seems to me a little inane to quibble over the primogeniture of a term derived from the French...

To get back to the hard facts, as Adam so aptly did with his well illustrated post, I believe that a great ragù alla bolognese (wasn't this the original topic?) ought to be made with a rather fatty cut of beef and pork (something like coppa).

Then, both the vegetables and later the meat should be let caramelize (without burning it!) My grandma used to say that to have good ragù the meat had "to suffer", in other words to cook and cook, sticking a little on the bottom, being rescued patiently with careful additions of stock or water.

Finally, there should be a law prohibiting the use of the term ragù for any meat sauce that has been cooked for less than 4 hours. While of course everybody's free to eat whatever hits his fancy, ragù alla bolognese must die over tagliatelle.

[Pizza Napoletana]

Here is my own ragu

Searing the meat

sweating the onion, garlic and "secret"

After the wine is reduced

The final result

Paccheri al ragú: I have added some of the pasta cooking water to make the ragú less dense, as well as topping the pasta with some shreaded beef and Basil.