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Cuisinart vs. All-Clad vs. XXX Cookware


lzrandall

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The comment about "heavily hyped products" prompts me to ask whether  All-Clad is worth the money or whether it's the next Calphalon: over-promoted and overrated.

Come ha detto il tipo grasso... They are all perfectly good cookware. I own some All-Clad and some Calphalon -- and I'll be getting more Calphalon when the Commercial Nonstick fry pans go on sale at Amazon.com. I just think that they are way over-hyped. Many people have spend huge bucks putting together a kitchen full of nothing but All-Clad Stainless or Calphalon Professional or whatever because they have bought in to the marketing hype that these are the "best kind of cookware." And they are, indeed, very good. But they are far from the best and they are far from the best value.

That said, when the price is right and the piece of cookware is one that lends itself to the design... I'll totally line up to buy Calphalon, All-Clad, Demeyere, whatever. And, okay, I'll admit it. I am a little biased against any product that self-promotes as much as they do. You don't see huge double page ads for Sitram or Paderno or Straub or Falk Culinair or Mauviel or F. Dick every time you open up an issue of Gourmet.

I also have the philosophy that it makes the most sense to build up a battery of cookware slowly, saving up for really good pieces and waiting for the occasional sales. That way you spend maybe a couple hundred bucks a year and before you know it you have some really kick-ass stuff. Buying things one piece at a time also gives you the opportunity to ask the significant questions of 1. how do you really intend to use this piece; 2. what materials and design lend themselves best to accomplishing these tasks; and 3. do you really need it. When one is buying a zillion pieces at once, it is easy to end up with a big expensive All-Clad pot that you mostly use to boil water.

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Cook's Illustrated did research on stockpots. (I read it in their Soups & Stews book.) They tested a wide variety in all the common materials, except copper due to the price. They found, not too surprisingly, that all boiled water at about the same rate. They found the differences when they tried sweating vegetables at low heat for a stock. All except for the triclad and the anodized aluminum scorched the vegetables within 23 minutes, some within ten minutes. So on that basis, I bought the three Chefmate stockpots in a set (8 qt., 12 qt. and 16 qt.) at Target (regularly only $69, but I got them for $49 when they were clearing them out this Spring...that's $16 each!). I am not complaining even if the clad drops off after five or ten years.

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I think it's also useful to be realistic about one's needs. Cookware designed for restaurant use is built with two priorities in mind: 1) suitability, and 2) durability. However, almost the same level of suitability can typically be achieved for 1/4 (or less) the price of restaurant-quality Bourgeat -- it's often the durability part that makes up the biggest chunk of the extra price. So then you have to ask what level of durability you need in your home kitchen. Even if you make a saucepot full of hollandaise every day, it will take you 100 years to subject your saucepot to the amount of abuse it would get in a restaurant kitchen in 1 year -- and a Bourgeat saucepot could easily last a decade in a heavy-use commercial environment. Meanwhile, chances are good that the Chefmate saucepan at Target would come unglued if subjected to a year of heavy restaurant use, but so what? In your home, it may very well outlive you, it's only twenty bucks, and bottom line it will probably perform just as well as the Bourgeat. In many ways buying Bourgeat for home use is like buying a car that can do 190 mph and never driving it faster than 65.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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As it happens, I was in Flemington, NJ, yesterday at the All Clad discount store. Typically, "irregulars" are discounted 40%. They are happy to look through a number of boxes for you, and I ended up with pots and pans in which the defects were virtually undetectable. In addition, if you buy 4 or more items, there is an another 20% discount. Furthermore, certain sets and individual items are on sale.

If you are interested in bargain All Clad and live withing driving distance, thisis a good deal.

BTW, I asked who buys the really dinged stuff. The answer" chefs.

Pat G.

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In many ways buying Bourgeat for home use is like buying a car that can do 190 mph and never driving it faster than 65.

And you can't park it in the driveway.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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A brand that I rarely see mentioned is the Cuisinart Everyday Stainless line. It features stainless inside and out, with a copper disk on the bottom. The hollow stainless handles are large and really easy to grip, much easier that All-clad and Capthalon.

I purchased a set when my wife and I married 16 years ago, and have added virtually everything they make in this line to our collection. Ebay always has open stock (some from liquidators) for pennies on the dollar.

SLKINSEY: I've been looking at the Falk Culinair line. Now apparently sold only online by the importer. Very expensive, but I'll probably try the copper discounted trial pot for $75. Do you still use this brand, and do the lids seem flimsy? My wife will be in Brussels for 12 days in July, and I just might try to talk her into visiting the factory to see if they have any seconds available. :rolleyes:

Carpe Carp: Seize that fish!

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SLKINSEY: I've been looking at the Falk Culinair line. Now apparently sold only online by the importer. Very expensive, but I'll probably try the copper discounted trial pot for $75. Do you still use this brand, and do the lids seem flimsy? My wife will be in Brussels for 12 days in July, and I just might try to talk her into visiting the factory to see if they have any seconds available. :rolleyes:

I have around 5 pieces of Falk Culinair, and I continue to use them on a daily basis. My 11-inch "Saucière" (which is basically a high-sided saute pan with a curved transition from the base to the sides) is by far the pan that I use the most often. A few things about Falk:

- I don't work for them or have any other relationshop other than as a customer

- Personally, I think you are better off choosing the "without lid" option and buyind stainless covers that fit. Who needs a copper lid? It doesn't add any functionality and it's hard to clean

- Falk is the company that developed the copper/stainless bimetal technology, and AFAIK they make all of it. If you get a Mauviel or Bourgeat copper/stainless pan, they made it out of metal they purchased (or possibly licensed) from Falk

- Falk makes what I have observed to be the least expensve heavy copper/stainless lined cookware. They do have occasional sales, which are wort waiting for. I will post here the next time there is a sale.

- If you do decide to buy some copper, make sure it is a type of pan where you will really be able to feel the difference. As the corpulent one says, why have a Ferrari that you only drive around the block? That $75 pan is a good deal, but you probably won't experience much of the benefits of copper using that pan unless you do a lot of reductions or make a lot of delicate emulsified sauces. If you want to really notice the difference and have a high caliber pan that you use every day, I think it makes the most sense to splurge and get an 11-inch sauté pan, saucière or frypan. I know these are hella expensive (although you can wait for a sale or try to get a second) but they will give you a lifetime and more of use. I waited for the right time and got great deals on all of mine.

- The negatives: First, they are very heavy. Second, there is the cleaning issue. They must be cleaned by hand, and every time you put them on the heat, the copper will discolor. Now, you can always decide not to clean the outside of the pan at all, and the copper will build up a natural patina. Or, if you do decide that you like your copper shiny, Falk makes it much easier to clean by virtue of having a brushed (as opposed to polished) exterior. We use Barkeeper's Friend and a Scotch Brite pad on ours, and it taked me no longer to clean one of my copper pans than it does to clean one od my stainless pans. Falk has some info about maintenance here.

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I just don't use my copper (I think I have a Mauviel skillet and a Bourgeat saucepot; or maybe it's the other way around); to me it's not worth the hassle associated with maintaining it or the adjustments one has to make when cooking with it. I don't really do any cooking that could be improved or made noticeably more convenient by copper's properties -- I doubt many home cooks do. I almost always reach either for Calphalon or cast-iron instead (depending on use), unless I'm planning to deglaze in which case I use steel. Interestingly, when I've had real chefs cooking at my house, they haven't demonstrated any interest in using the copper stuff either.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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A brand that I rarely see mentioned is the Cuisinart Everyday Stainless line. It features stainless inside and out, with a copper disk on the bottom. The hollow stainless handles are large and really easy to grip, much easier that All-clad and Capthalon.

I'm not a fan of the Cuisinart skillet that I have. The handle is too big (gets in the way of anything else that's on or near the cooktop) and the steep upward angle makes it a bad choice for sticking under the broiler or even just in the oven. I also vastly prefer, when using a skillet, something that has an integrated design -- either all from one conductive metal or a full sandwich of metals -- over a disk bottom, because the disk doesn't really provide even heat out to the edges. Calphalon has various handle designs, by the way. I don't like the All-Clad style handles that Calphalon has been copying on some of the newer lines, but pretty much my favorite handles are the ones on the Calphalon Professional Non-Stick II skillets, which are much like the Cuisinart handles but not as steep or bulky.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I Know some chefs who use a couple of copper pots, what seems like, all the time at home. Those damn things weigh more than some cast iron I have. The outsides of the pots are clean, but certainly not polished. We have a few very nice old copper pots and pans we never use. Two of them were purchased at Dehillerin in Paris in the sixties. They're less heavy weight than I might buy now, but copper is an amazing heat conductor even in comparison with aluminum. Another pot was a gift a friend found in the country. Unfortuantely, they predate the copper stainless technology and the tin linings are pretty well worn. The last time I looked into having them retinned again, we decided All Clad was a better investment. I have purchased some tin and have thought of doing the relining myself, but never find the time. I also wonder about consuming the tin that has to go in the food if it's wearing off.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Copper is a better conductor than aluminum, but stainless is a lousy conductor. What are the stats on stainless-lined copper versus anodized aluminum when it comes to conductivity?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I've preferred cooking in the tin lined copper than the stainless steel lined aluminum, that's for sure on two counts. I have one small anodized aluminum pan and I don't like the surface at all so I never looked further into the assets of anodized aluminum. I don't spend much time cleaning the outside of any pots I have and don't much care what they look like. The All Clad with the stainless exterior never interested me. I like the look of black iron and of anodized aluminum, but I rarely buy a pot on its looks. When I was younger, I used to like the kind of pots and pans that looked as if they were targets for the Museum of Modern Art collection. Nowadays I wonder why anyone thinks they can design a better looking pan that the traditional ones. Any change should be purely functional. And a plague on anyone who manufactures a pot with a handle that can burn or melt.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Copper is a better conductor than aluminum, but stainless is a lousy conductor. What are the stats on stainless-lined copper versus anodized aluminum when it comes to conductivity?

The stainless lining is only 0.2 mm thick. Given the fact that the conductivity of copper is significantly higher than that of aluminum (4.01 W/cm/K as opposed to 2.37 for aluminum) I am have to think that the 0.2 mm of stainless in a 2.5 mm thick piece of cookware wouldn't tip the balance in favor of anodized aluminum. I also wonder how thick the aluminum is on most pieces of anodized aluminum cookware. If they are any thicker than 2.5 mm (the thickness of stainless lined heavy copper cookware) I don't see how an anodized aluminum pan could possibly be more responsive. My main issues with anodized aluminum are that I have warped several pieces at high temperatures and it is hands-down the hardest cookware to keep clean that I have ever owned.

The big advantages of stainless lined as opposed to tin lined copper are that one does not have to spend money on re-tinning and high heat cooking is possible (tin melts at high heats).

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I have no idea whether it's true or not, but multiple chefs have told me that stainless-lined copper is substantially less responsive than tin-lined. "Like copper with a condom" is how one put it. But yes, the anodized aluminum stuff is all much thicker than 2.5mm. Cleaning it is no problem, though -- just disregard the instructions and stick it in the dishwasher!

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I have no idea whether it's true or not, but multiple chefs have told me that stainless-lined copper is substantially less responsive than tin-lined. "Like copper with a condom" is how one put it. But yes, the anodized aluminum stuff is all much thicker than 2.5mm.

Hmmm.. Yea, that very well may be the case. For my own purposes (and I would guess the purposes of most home cooks) the advantages of the stainless lining (can use high heat, much more durable, doesn't need to be replaced) far outweigh the gain in responsiveness. The one thing I can definitely say from my own experience is that stainless lined heavy copper blows away any other cookware I have tried in terms of responsiveness, and I've tried just about every design but tin-lined copper.

Cleaning [anodized aluminum] is no problem, though -- just disregard the instructions and stick it in the dishwasher!

Um... in my Manhattan apartment, the dishwasher is named "Kathleen." I'm not so sure she'd be into that... :hmmm:

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Slk, what benefits do you derive from the responsiveness of copper? Does it really help your cooking?

For me, it's not worth it. I know I can get a quicker heat adjustment from copper than from other cookware, but I'd rather be able to walk away from the stove to answer an e-mail without worrying that I'll return to a kitchen that looks as though the Terminator came through hunting for Sarah Connor.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Slk, what benefits do you derive from the responsiveness of copper? Does it really help your cooking?

Hmmm... That is a difficult question to answer... there are so many things.

For example, when I am making a very delicate emulsified sauce I find that pinpoint temperature control is very useful. Often times when I do this sort of thing I can regulate the temperature by holding the saucepot in the air over the flame and making minute adjustments in the height of the pan over the flame (obviously this is something I would do only with a small pot). I never use a double boiler for things like melting chocolate, making Hollandaise, etc. These are the sorts of things where the super high level responsiveness comes into play.

In terms of other things... I have noticed that my copper pans come up to temperature way faster than my other pans. Also, because they are so heavy and have such a large thermal mass, they hold more heat than any other pans I own (I know that cast iron can technically hold more heat, but I have never seen a cast iron pan thick enough to hold more heat than my copper pans -- they really should make 5 mm or 7 mm thick cast iron skillets). As a result, I find that my copper pans are simply more effective than my cast iron and aluminum pans for things like searing steaks.

There is also the trade-off between responsiveness and evenness of heat. In order for less conductive pans to provide even heat, they have to be thicker and therefore are all that much less responsive. So... let's say you are trying to deeply caramelize some onions and you are down to the very last bit. One minute more and you might start burning the onions. With a copper pan, you can simply remove the pan from the heat and the temperature will quickly start going down. An aluminum pan that was thick enough to provide a similar evenness of heat might start to burn the onoins before it cooled down. Of course, you can always take the onions out of the pan, but I am only making an example...

It's also nice to know that you have a pan that can get screaming hot and hold enough heat to quickly brown off a bunch of chicken thighs, but that will quickly cool down to simmering temperature when the heat is lowered and a little white wine is added (along with juniper berries, garlic and rosemary if it's me doing the cooking) and will thereafter provide perfectly even heat for a braising.

For me, it's not worth it. I know I can get a quicker heat adjustment from copper than from other cookware, but I'd rather be able to walk away from the stove to answer an e-mail without worrying that I'll return to a kitchen that looks as though the Terminator came through it looking for Sarah Connor.

Oh, copper is definitely not for everyone, I agree. That said, I don't underdstand why you would be more worried about copper cookware sitting on the stove than anything else. What do you think would happen? Personally, I'd be a lot more worried about leaving that Calphalon Commercial nonstick fry pan or a Le Creuset French oven sitting on the stove. Those pieces can really be damaged if they get too hot. I have been known to leave my Falk saucière on the stove empty for 7 or 8 minutes so it gets screaming hot for stir frying (works infinitely better on my stove than any wok I have ever tried).

The next time Falk has a sale or offers an introductory price on a fry pan or a sauté pan, you might think about picking one up. I know they seem expensive, but they last a lifetime and they are really no more expensive than a fancy dinner in Manhattan for two or a DVD player that will be obsolete in 3-5 years. And if you discover than you aren't into using it, you at least have something cool-looking hanging in the kitchen. Heck... I might be willing to buy it off you if you gave me a decent price. :wink:

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:wub: SOLD! :wub: I'll be ordering one in the next month or so. Would like to make the $500 barrier for a 20% discount. Please let me know if you see a sale.

And no, I'm not going to make my 60 year oldwife carry 8 pieces back on the plane. :raz:

Sam

Carpe Carp: Seize that fish!

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As it happens, I was in Flemington, NJ, yesterday at the All Clad discount store.  Typically, "irregulars" are discounted 40%.  They are happy to look through a number of boxes for you, and I ended up with pots and pans in which the defects were virtually undetectable.  In addition, if you buy 4 or more items, there is an another 20% discount.  Furthermore, certain sets and individual items are on sale.

If you are interested in bargain All Clad and live withing driving distance, thisis a good deal.

BTW, I asked who buys the really dinged stuff.  The answer" chefs.

The All-Clad store in Flemington often has very good prices. Emeril-ware and the various All-Clad lines dominate their stock

A few weeks ago, they closed out scanpan irregulars for 80% off list, I picked up a 10 inch skillet for $30.

Apparently it's easier still to dictate the conversation and in effect, kill the conversation.

rancho gordo

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Slk, what benefits do you derive from the responsiveness of copper? Does it really help your cooking?

For me, it's not worth it. I know I can get a quicker heat adjustment from copper than from other cookware, but I'd rather be able to walk away from the stove to answer an e-mail without worrying that I'll return to a kitchen that looks as though the Terminator came through hunting for Sarah Connor.

Walking away from a pan on the stove is not cooking. A pan that will forgive walking away from the stove, is not particularly the best pan to use when you're paying 100% attention to your cooking.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Walking away from a pan on the stove is not cooking.

How do you reconcile this truism with "a watched pot never boils"?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Walking away from a pan on the stove is not cooking.

How do you reconcile this truism with "a watched pot never boils"?

I know people who can boil water but who can't cook.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Walking away from a pan on the stove is not cooking.

How do you reconcile this truism with "a watched pot never boils"?

I know people who can boil water but who can't cook.

Thats impossible!

Future Food - our new television show airing 3/30 @ 9pm cst:

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tv/future-food/

Hope you enjoy the show! Homaro Cantu

Chef/Owner of Moto Restaurant

www.motorestaurant.com

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