Crumb

[RonC]

I've been into wild yeast bread baking recently and while the taste is pretty good, I'd like a better crumb. My loafs tend to be very dense. Any suggestions?

Much thanks,

Sidecar Ron

[culinary bear]

What's your recipe and kneading/resting/proving times?

[UnConundrum]

Is your wild yeast developed enough?

[jackal10]

Sourdough is wid yeast

Check the EGCI unit http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=27634

[RonC]

What's your recipe and kneading/resting/proving times?

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The recipe is Reihart's from "Baker's Apprentice.

Start with 4 oz. of barm and 4.5 oz of bread flour plus a little water. Then let rest/ferment until doubled (often longer than 4 hours) and put in fridge overnight (sometimes two days)

Let warm up to an hour. and create final dough (20.25 oz of flour and about 1.5 cups of warm water. I stand-mixer kneed for 5 min., let rest 10 min. and kneed another 5 min.

Let rest until doubled. Form loaf and let rest another couple of hours.

Bake at 450 until internal temp is around 200.

Edited October 21, 2005 by RonC (log)

[RonC]

Is your wild yeast developed enough?

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I believe so.

[UnConundrum]

What's your recipe and kneading/resting/proving times?

←

The recipe is Reihart's from "Baker's Apprentice.

Start with 4 oz. of barm and 4.5 oz of bread flour plus a little water. Then let rest/ferment until doubled (often longer than 4 hours) and put in fridge overnight (sometimes two days)

Let warm up to an hour. and create final dough (20.25 oz of flour and about 1.5 cups of warm water. I stand-mixer kneed for 5 min., let rest 10 min. and kneed another 5 min.

Let rest until doubled. Form loaf and let rest another couple of hours.

Bake at 450 until internal temp is around 200.

←

Well, there's experts far more knowledgable than me here, but here's my observations....

While the 20 oz. of flour and 1.5 cups of water is about 60% hydration, I'm concerned about the 4oz of barm, 4.5 oz of flour, and a little water. I'd like to see that "little water" be just over 5 oz. to maintain the 60% hydration.

As to the 1.5 cups (12 oz ?) of "warm" water, how warm was it? Wild yeast is more delicate that store bought, and temps substantially above 100 F will kill them.

After you formed the loaf, how far did it rise? Did it double again? Did it appear as if it reached full proof?

Lastly, temperatures are far more important than the degree of attention demonstrated by your recipe. You should be using an instant read thermometer and adjusting the water temperature to meet your final dough temperature. IOW, if your flour is 60F and your room temp is 60F, you probably need water of 90F to reach a final dough temperature of 70F (subject to the friction resulting from your mixer so really maybe 85F) The barm may not have reached room temperature after an hour......

[jackal10]

I would agree the yeast is not developed enough.

Natural yeasts are *much* slower than commercial yeast, and a lot more temperature sensitive. I suspect both your sponge and dough temperature is too cold - should be close to 30C/90F. At that temperature mine usually takes 4 hours to prove.

By "Barm" do you mean a beer yeast? That has different characteristics again, and is not optimal for wheat flour. Try adding malt.

[RonC]

What's your recipe and kneading/resting/proving times?

←

The recipe is Reihart's from "Baker's Apprentice.

Start with 4 oz. of barm and 4.5 oz of bread flour plus a little water. Then let rest/ferment until doubled (often longer than 4 hours) and put in fridge overnight (sometimes two days)

Let warm up to an hour. and create final dough (20.25 oz of flour and about 1.5 cups of warm water. I stand-mixer kneed for 5 min., let rest 10 min. and kneed another 5 min.

Let rest until doubled. Form loaf and let rest another couple of hours.

Bake at 450 until internal temp is around 200.

←

Well, there's experts far more knowledgable than me here, but here's my observations....

While the 20 oz. of flour and 1.5 cups of water is about 60% hydration, I'm concerned about the 4oz of barm, 4.5 oz of flour, and a little water. I'd like to see that "little water" be just over 5 oz. to maintain the 60% hydration.

As to the 1.5 cups (12 oz ?) of "warm" water, how warm was it? Wild yeast is more delicate that store bought, and temps substantially above 100 F will kill them.

After you formed the loaf, how far did it rise? Did it double again? Did it appear as if it reached full proof?

Lastly, temperatures are far more important than the degree of attention demonstrated by your recipe. You should be using an instant read thermometer and adjusting the water temperature to meet your final dough temperature. IOW, if your flour is 60F and your room temp is 60F, you probably need water of 90F to reach a final dough temperature of 70F (subject to the friction resulting from your mixer so really maybe 85F) The barm may not have reached room temperature after an hour......

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Thanks for your suggestions.

Let's see ... by "little water" I meant just an oz or two. "Warm" for me is 90-100 with an instant read. What I've NOT been reading is dough temps throughout the process. I'll try that and add a little more water at the start. I believe that my proofing times have been okay.

[RonC]

I would agree the yeast is not developed enough.

Natural yeasts are *much* slower than commercial yeast, and a lot more temperature sensitive.  I suspect both your sponge and dough temperature is too cold - should be close to 30C/90F. At that temperature mine usually takes 4 hours to prove.

By "Barm" do you mean a beer yeast? That has different characteristics again, and is not optimal for wheat flour.  Try adding malt.

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Thank you.

Again, it sounds like a temp issue/problem. I'll check that more carefully next time. "Barm" is just my wild yeast, flour and water mixture. I save beer for my drinking.